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Also interesting fact: Roughly another third of cars sold in Norway in 2018 were hybrid, taking hybrid+electric to a combined two-thirds of all cars sold. Only

Also interesting fact: Roughly another third of cars sold in Norway in 2018 were hybrid, taking hybrid+electric to a combined two-thirds of all cars sold. Only one third were pure fossil fuel. That is quite remarkable. Source: https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/editorcharts/NORWAY-AUTOS/0H001JT473W8/index.html https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/editorcharts/NORWAY-AU...

martinald 8y ago
Not really, if you tax cars at ~100% on registration (eg: $50k car has $50k of tax on it for a total price of $100k), like Norway does, then it is pretty easy to get adoption when you zero rate or reduce that tax for (PH)EVs. It's effectively an enormous tax credit for EVs. I'm sure of the US govt increased the federal tax credit for EVs from $7.5k to $40-60k, you'd see similar adoption in the US too.
- theon144 8y ago
  No matter the reason, it's still just as remarkable, I'm not sure what you're implying.
- olivermarks 8y ago
  EV's are enormously subsidized in oil rich Norway, as they are in China. It is encouraging that such a cold country can run EV's though, it seems they generally perform much better in warmer climates
  - ars 8y ago
    I think the issue in cold climates is not the battery itself, it's heating the cabin. With a combustion engine you use waste heat, but with a battery engine you use resistive heat and that comes right from your battery. A/C also uses battery, but heat uses more energy.
    - goodcanadian 8y ago
      A/C also uses battery, but heat uses more energy. I can't speak for all cars, but mine uses a heat pump for heat. Should have similar efficiency to A/C as that is exactly what a heat pump is.
      - Scoundreller 8y ago
        Their efficiency goes way down the colder it gets. They’ll work well at 5-10C, but frost up and require electrically-expensive defrost cycles when it’s colder than -2 or -3 C.
      - tigershark 8y ago
        Heat pump with outside temperatures below zero has same or lower efficiency than resistive heating.
        Faaak 8y ago
        I suppose the cars heats resistively below zero, and with a heat pump above
        g8oz 8y ago
        A modern heat pump with a variable speed compressor can be more efficient than resistive heat down to about -25 degrees Celsius (-13F). See Mitsubishi's Mr. Slim series. http://cdn.agilitycms.com/mesca/productdownloads/mem-201806-e-p-series.pdf http://cdn.agilitycms.com/mesca/productdownloads/mem-201806-... (page 13)
        tigershark 8y ago
        And if you use a ground source heat pump (that has to be interred) it would be even more efficient. So? I don’t think that you can put either of them in a car...
        g8oz 8y ago
        The offerings from Mitsubishi and similar ones from other Asian manufacturers like LG and Fujitsu are air source heat pumps. I see no reason why the tech can't be scaled down to fit a car. It's certainly a reasonable goal for auto parts suppliers to aim at.
  - pi-rat 8y ago
    As an interesting side note to this, while we might (temporarily) lose some range on cold winter days, our car batteries have remarkable little degradation compared to EVs from warmer climates. Used EVs imported from i.e. southern France to Norway usually have significantly lower remaining battery capacity than a car that has spent it's entire life in Norway. Seems heat really kills these things :)
    - pedrocr 8y ago
      I had never heard about this. Do you have a reference? How big is the difference?
      - pi-rat 8y ago
        I don't have any actual numbers, sorry. I just remember being warned to be careful about cars from hot climates (like southern europe, and some US locations) a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf. Demands for EVs were very high in Norway, and resellers had to import (and still do) used EVs from other countries. I found a life expectation chart for 3 US cities at [0]. It's well know that high temperatures (while in use and while in storage) degrade li-ion batteries[1]. However, electric cars have thermal management systems to try to protect the batteries from this effect (extreme heat and cold). Tesla have active water cooling, while Nissan Leaf use a simpler air cooling. They also use different battery chemistries that handle temperatures differently. If you have a look quick look at this talk[2] you'll hear that Nissan is using a chemistry that experience higher degradation under high temperatures than for example Tesla's choice. [0]: https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric-car-batteries_100394454_l.jpg https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric... [1]: https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand-heat-122447.html https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand... [2]: https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516 https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516
        pedrocr 8y ago
        > a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf The Leaf was notorious for not actually cooling the battery so I can see how they would do better in Norway. Maybe the newest generations have improved on that. I'd be curious if that was the same for Tesla though, which supposedly keeps the battery temperate under much better control.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    There are cold parts to the country, but a lot of the population lives in the South near the sea where the winter night time temperature doesn’t go much below zero Celsius. And your vehicle is exposed to more moderated temperatures if parked indoors (even the pad of an unheated garage retains heat). Plenty of parts of the US and Canada deal with much colder temperatures for months at a time.
    - acchow 8y ago
      According to the graphs here, the most significant drop in range is cooling from the 10-20C bracket down to the 0-10C bracket https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-relative-to-speed-temperature-graphs/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-rel...
      - Scoundreller 8y ago
        That makes sense (but wow the variability on their initial plots!). It would be nice to see plots for ranges of temps below 0C or temperatures where AC is desired. I think a lot of people think of Norway in winter like they think of N. Minnesota in winter.
- throwaway12iii 8y ago
  Fossil fuel cars get a huge discount for causing pollution and health problems. If other countries subsidized the damage that fossil fuel cars do as much as the USA then I'm sure there would be similar adoption as in the USA too.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - merpnderp 8y ago
    A brand new Ford Raptor will clean the air in most cities. You'd have to drive that 465HP fuel guzzling toy over 3,887 miles to equal the particulate output of 30 minutes of yard work with a 2 stroke engine. So not as much of a discount as you might have thought.
    - mavhc 8y ago
      It removes CO2? magic
      - jacquesm 8y ago
        He wrote 'particulate'.
      - wongarsu 8y ago
        Not CO2, but particulate matter [1]: basically tiny solid particles caused by exhaust, tires etc that stay suspended in the air. They are linked to a range of health issues in the concentrations found in many urban cities. When you hear about cities banning diesel cars or ICE cars or old cars, that's a measure to reduce suspended particulate matter, not CO2. But luckily unlike CO2, particulate matter can be caught by a HEPA air filter. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates
    - torpfactory 8y ago
      It is true that many cars will clean the air of particulate matter these days. That is the only kind of pollution that a modern ICE car will remove, but it is not the only kind of pollution worth talking about.... CO2, NOx and others are just-as, if not more important and your air filter won't do jack diddly for those.
- NickM 8y ago
  I'm sure of the US govt increased the federal tax credit for EVs from $7.5k to $40-60k, you'd see similar adoption in the US too. I get your point, but to be fair, the numbers in your comparison are a bit off, since a $40-60k tax credit would make many electric cars effectively free. That would be a much bigger incentive than what Norway has.
- walshemj 8y ago
  Its the same reason that diesel was so popular in Europe (with out the particlates though) also in some countries LPG.
- rhacker 8y ago
  Not really remarkable? Even if it's just "legislative decisions", it's fucking incredible that a country did what it did to get there. Do you really think the US is 2 inches away from shutting out it's internal big-oil? Even if tech isn't the solution, and it's just decisions, it can still be remarkable.
- paulddraper 8y ago
  > Not really, if you tax cars at ~100% on registration Your facts are correct, but that makes it no less interesting or incredible. > I'm sure of the US govt increased the federal tax credit for EVs from $7.5k to $40-60k, you'd see similar adoption in the US too. Okay. And if such an event happened, you'd not think it incredible?
johnchristopher 8y ago
Is there a market for second hand electric cars like there is for oil powered cars ? Usable cars starting as low as 2000€ ?
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  There is certainly a strong market for secondhand electric cars - I own one and it's the best car I've ever purchased. In terms of the "starting as low as 2000€", though, no. The battery alone in any usable electric car is likely worth more than that.
  - ric2b 8y ago
    About the battery... Does that mean electric cars should have much better short/medium term depreciation and probably worse long term (as the batteries become too degraded for reuse)?
- pi-rat 8y ago
  Demand is high for both new and used EVs in Norway. EVs are free (or significantly cheaper) on most toll roads, parking, and pay at most 50% of regular fees for ferries. Owning an old short range EV as a second car can easily save you 1800€ a year[1] in toll fees alone. Even an old electric wreck is easily worth 10000€ just in reduced toll fees if it's able to do 5 more years of just rolling past that toll station barrier. Even banged up and with a 50% degraded battery the car is still valuable, as long as it can get you to work and back home again. There was a time some years ago when you could essentially cover the down payments for a Tesla Model S from saved ferry fees if your daily commute crossed Trondheimsfjorden (cost like 30 USD per way, this "bug" has since been fixed, you now have to pay 50% of the ticket). [1]: https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/dette-vil-bomringen-koste-deg-1.11761930 https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/dette-vil-bomringen-koste-deg-1....

martinald 8y ago

Not really, if you tax cars at ~100% on registration (eg: $50k car has $50k of tax on it for a total price of $100k), like Norway does, then it is pretty easy to get adoption when you zero rate or reduce that tax for (PH)EVs. It's effectively an enormous tax credit for EVs. I'm sure of the US govt increased the federal tax credit for EVs from $7.5k to $40-60k, you'd see similar adoption in the US too.

theon144 8y ago
No matter the reason, it's still just as remarkable, I'm not sure what you're implying.
olivermarks 8y ago
EV's are enormously subsidized in oil rich Norway, as they are in China. It is encouraging that such a cold country can run EV's though, it seems they generally perform much better in warmer climates
- ars 8y ago
  I think the issue in cold climates is not the battery itself, it's heating the cabin. With a combustion engine you use waste heat, but with a battery engine you use resistive heat and that comes right from your battery. A/C also uses battery, but heat uses more energy.
  - goodcanadian 8y ago
    A/C also uses battery, but heat uses more energy. I can't speak for all cars, but mine uses a heat pump for heat. Should have similar efficiency to A/C as that is exactly what a heat pump is.
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      Their efficiency goes way down the colder it gets. They’ll work well at 5-10C, but frost up and require electrically-expensive defrost cycles when it’s colder than -2 or -3 C.
    - tigershark 8y ago
      Heat pump with outside temperatures below zero has same or lower efficiency than resistive heating.
      - Faaak 8y ago
        I suppose the cars heats resistively below zero, and with a heat pump above
      - g8oz 8y ago
        A modern heat pump with a variable speed compressor can be more efficient than resistive heat down to about -25 degrees Celsius (-13F). See Mitsubishi's Mr. Slim series. http://cdn.agilitycms.com/mesca/productdownloads/mem-201806-e-p-series.pdf http://cdn.agilitycms.com/mesca/productdownloads/mem-201806-... (page 13)
        tigershark 8y ago
        And if you use a ground source heat pump (that has to be interred) it would be even more efficient. So? I don’t think that you can put either of them in a car...
        g8oz 8y ago
        The offerings from Mitsubishi and similar ones from other Asian manufacturers like LG and Fujitsu are air source heat pumps. I see no reason why the tech can't be scaled down to fit a car. It's certainly a reasonable goal for auto parts suppliers to aim at.
- pi-rat 8y ago
  As an interesting side note to this, while we might (temporarily) lose some range on cold winter days, our car batteries have remarkable little degradation compared to EVs from warmer climates. Used EVs imported from i.e. southern France to Norway usually have significantly lower remaining battery capacity than a car that has spent it's entire life in Norway. Seems heat really kills these things :)
  - pedrocr 8y ago
    I had never heard about this. Do you have a reference? How big is the difference?
    - pi-rat 8y ago
      I don't have any actual numbers, sorry. I just remember being warned to be careful about cars from hot climates (like southern europe, and some US locations) a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf. Demands for EVs were very high in Norway, and resellers had to import (and still do) used EVs from other countries. I found a life expectation chart for 3 US cities at [0]. It's well know that high temperatures (while in use and while in storage) degrade li-ion batteries[1]. However, electric cars have thermal management systems to try to protect the batteries from this effect (extreme heat and cold). Tesla have active water cooling, while Nissan Leaf use a simpler air cooling. They also use different battery chemistries that handle temperatures differently. If you have a look quick look at this talk[2] you'll hear that Nissan is using a chemistry that experience higher degradation under high temperatures than for example Tesla's choice. [0]: https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric-car-batteries_100394454_l.jpg https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric... [1]: https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand-heat-122447.html https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand... [2]: https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516 https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516
      - pedrocr 8y ago
        > a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf The Leaf was notorious for not actually cooling the battery so I can see how they would do better in Norway. Maybe the newest generations have improved on that. I'd be curious if that was the same for Tesla though, which supposedly keeps the battery temperate under much better control.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  There are cold parts to the country, but a lot of the population lives in the South near the sea where the winter night time temperature doesn’t go much below zero Celsius. And your vehicle is exposed to more moderated temperatures if parked indoors (even the pad of an unheated garage retains heat). Plenty of parts of the US and Canada deal with much colder temperatures for months at a time.
  - acchow 8y ago
    According to the graphs here, the most significant drop in range is cooling from the 10-20C bracket down to the 0-10C bracket https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-relative-to-speed-temperature-graphs/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/15/tesla-range-plotted-rel...
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      That makes sense (but wow the variability on their initial plots!). It would be nice to see plots for ranges of temps below 0C or temperatures where AC is desired. I think a lot of people think of Norway in winter like they think of N. Minnesota in winter.
throwaway12iii 8y ago
Fossil fuel cars get a huge discount for causing pollution and health problems. If other countries subsidized the damage that fossil fuel cars do as much as the USA then I'm sure there would be similar adoption as in the USA too.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- merpnderp 8y ago
  A brand new Ford Raptor will clean the air in most cities. You'd have to drive that 465HP fuel guzzling toy over 3,887 miles to equal the particulate output of 30 minutes of yard work with a 2 stroke engine. So not as much of a discount as you might have thought.
  - mavhc 8y ago
    It removes CO2? magic
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      He wrote 'particulate'.
    - wongarsu 8y ago
      Not CO2, but particulate matter [1]: basically tiny solid particles caused by exhaust, tires etc that stay suspended in the air. They are linked to a range of health issues in the concentrations found in many urban cities. When you hear about cities banning diesel cars or ICE cars or old cars, that's a measure to reduce suspended particulate matter, not CO2. But luckily unlike CO2, particulate matter can be caught by a HEPA air filter. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particulates
  - torpfactory 8y ago
    It is true that many cars will clean the air of particulate matter these days. That is the only kind of pollution that a modern ICE car will remove, but it is not the only kind of pollution worth talking about.... CO2, NOx and others are just-as, if not more important and your air filter won't do jack diddly for those.
NickM 8y ago
I'm sure of the US govt increased the federal tax credit for EVs from $7.5k to $40-60k, you'd see similar adoption in the US too. I get your point, but to be fair, the numbers in your comparison are a bit off, since a $40-60k tax credit would make many electric cars effectively free. That would be a much bigger incentive than what Norway has.
walshemj 8y ago
Its the same reason that diesel was so popular in Europe (with out the particlates though) also in some countries LPG.
rhacker 8y ago
Not really remarkable? Even if it's just "legislative decisions", it's fucking incredible that a country did what it did to get there. Do you really think the US is 2 inches away from shutting out it's internal big-oil? Even if tech isn't the solution, and it's just decisions, it can still be remarkable.
paulddraper 8y ago
> Not really, if you tax cars at ~100% on registration Your facts are correct, but that makes it no less interesting or incredible. > I'm sure of the US govt increased the federal tax credit for EVs from $7.5k to $40-60k, you'd see similar adoption in the US too. Okay. And if such an event happened, you'd not think it incredible?

johnchristopher 8y ago

Is there a market for second hand electric cars like there is for oil powered cars ? Usable cars starting as low as 2000€ ?

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
There is certainly a strong market for secondhand electric cars - I own one and it's the best car I've ever purchased. In terms of the "starting as low as 2000€", though, no. The battery alone in any usable electric car is likely worth more than that.
- ric2b 8y ago
  About the battery... Does that mean electric cars should have much better short/medium term depreciation and probably worse long term (as the batteries become too degraded for reuse)?
pi-rat 8y ago
Demand is high for both new and used EVs in Norway. EVs are free (or significantly cheaper) on most toll roads, parking, and pay at most 50% of regular fees for ferries. Owning an old short range EV as a second car can easily save you 1800€ a year[1] in toll fees alone. Even an old electric wreck is easily worth 10000€ just in reduced toll fees if it's able to do 5 more years of just rolling past that toll station barrier. Even banged up and with a 50% degraded battery the car is still valuable, as long as it can get you to work and back home again. There was a time some years ago when you could essentially cover the down payments for a Tesla Model S from saved ferry fees if your daily commute crossed Trondheimsfjorden (cost like 30 USD per way, this "bug" has since been fixed, you now have to pay 50% of the ticket). [1]: https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/dette-vil-bomringen-koste-deg-1.11761930 https://www.nrk.no/rogaland/dette-vil-bomringen-koste-deg-1....