10 ms·

Living and working in Sweden as engineers

98 points by hongchao 8y ago

dep_b 8y ago
Sweden is really expensive. And don’t get me started on the price of a beer in a bar. Make sure they pay you a lot. It’s definitely a clean and well organized country with lots of nature. And it seems pretty great for tech. But would never move there.
- badpun 8y ago
  > And don’t get me started on the price of a beer in a bar. Make sure they pay you a lot. Also, check out taxes. I was offered a contract position in Sweden recently, and the total tax burden was around 55%. Thanks, but no thanks.
  - theredbox 8y ago
    Sweden’s too egalitarian society with a lot of people not being economically active. You are subsidizing unwilling and lazy with insane taxes and you get nothing in return because of equality. You are probably well off compared to them but still cant afford an apartment.
    - Moru 8y ago
      This path of discussion is always fun to watch when it comes up. Does it work better in America with the lazy people, are they working better just because they make less money? Most people in Sweden can actually live on one job even if it is as a cleaner. The people that you call lazy is a very small percentage of the population. And just about all of them has some physical or psycical problem preventing them from getting a job. It is not a choice they have to either go work or starve. Noone chooses to starve just because it's fun. This mentality is very upsetting for us that has seen reality and does not live in a glass house.
      - badpun 8y ago
        Nordic countries are maybe the best place on earth if you’re not gifted in any way (academically, dexterity for manual labor etc.) and thus you work as a cleaner or other unskilled labor. For software engineers, on the other hand, there are better options.
        vasilipupkin 8y ago
        Nonsense as Sweden has more per capita billionaires than US and more unicorn startups per capita than most US cities
        theredbox 8y ago
        Talk about arbitrary numbers you used.
        vasilipupkin 8y ago
        These directly refute the claim that Sweden is only a good place for people who lack talent
        badpun 8y ago
        Most billionaires inherit their wealth? As for startups, it would be better to see the success ratio (how many people tried to create a startup vs how many succeed) and not just the number of survivors.
        vasilipupkin 8y ago
        We are discussing the claim that talented people can’t succeed in Sweden. Yet, higher per capita number of unicorns in Sweden than in many other places, including US, shows that this claim is false
        badpun 8y ago
    - beefield 8y ago
      > Sweden’s too egalitarian society Any examples of societies that are unequal[1] enough for you? [1] Not sure about a proper antonym here.
  - hoebaggins 8y ago
    "It's cool to pay taxes" - Mona Sahlin, former leader of the Swedish Social Democratic Party.
    - SiempreViernes 8y ago
      A better tagline than "strong and steady" at least
    - theredbox 8y ago
      It is not cool to be at the mercy of the government and their ability to run the state. They already failed with housing and healthcare. While the healthcare is free and accessible it is slow, bureacratic and costs you more at the end of the day than you would be willing to pay with your own money.
      - myspy 8y ago
        And what is better? Healthcare costs a fortune as seen in the US and the system is failing, when you are a humanitarian and think equality to all humans is important. Same with housing. Rich fools conquering large towns and driving everyone else out. Does that benefit society? Of course when you support a system that everyone is his own best friend, you'll be happier when all the money you earn goes to you.
      - robin_reala 8y ago
        At the moment Swedes have less government that most other countries.
  - geomark 8y ago
    But the Swedes are fine with it, as is the author of the post, because they feel they get their money's worth. The author went into quite a bit of detail about he doesn't have to save much for his childrens' education and some other major expenses since most will be covered by tax-payers. Assuming of course that the government is fiscally prudent for the many years until your kids start higher education and you are elderly and need a lot of medical care. Given how popular it is around the world to run huge deficits that end up requiring major cuts to services I wouldn't bet my future on it.
    - badpun 8y ago
      The state-provided services are similar in Poland - most notably: free healthcare, free education up to university, state pension, disability insurance, some help in case the of financial hardship. Meanwhile, the total income tax burden is around 35% or 20% if you’re self-employed. There’s also plenty of other options, like the UK.
      - badpun 8y ago
        Can the downvoter explain his/her decision? What is wrong with my post?
    - queuq 8y ago
      We are not fine with it. It's a bit off topic, but all I can see online about Sweden always sounds so perfect. But in reality it's not. There's a lot of us Swedes that are long from fine paying these taxes and then see our friends/relatives waiting for half a year waiting for treatment for cancer. And if you'd like private healthcare, Sweden taxes you extra for that. New car? Triple tax first 3 years.
      - geomark 8y ago
        I was wondering if there are dissenting opinions. What percentage of Swedes do you estimate feel the way you do?
        8y ago
- uvesten 8y ago
  Compared to most other countries in western europe, engineers are severely underpaid in Sweden. I’d definitely go elsewhere.
  - theredbox 8y ago
    Engineers in europe are underpaid everywhere. You cant have a social democracy without squeezing everyone around you out of every penny.
    - bauerd 8y ago
      Underpaid in relation to what? The bay area?
      - theredbox 8y ago
        In relation to the rest of the world.
      - gaius 8y ago
        Underpaid relative to other professions. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, MBAs, etc etc. Even civil servants once the final salary pensions are factored in. Low pay, low prestige (if that matters to you), low job security, relative to others at a similar level of education, responsibility, etc.
        freyir 8y ago
        > "Lawyers, accountants, doctors, MBAs ... Low pay, low prestige" But that's true almost everywhere. In the U.S. it's true everywhere outside of the Bay Area, and perhaps Seattle. I love Boston, for example, but the city is chock full of bankers, lawyers, management consultants, and doctors whose incomes often dwarf those of engineers. And they're much higher on the social ladder. You're priced out of the most desirable neighborhoods in the city, and if you're single, dating is tougher. Obviously, it's not the end of the world. 99% of people don't make as much as investment bankers or white-shoe lawyers, and life goes on. But I think it explains in part why engineers are drawn to the Bay Area. The sky-high cost-of-living may make it a break-even proposition, but the bit of prestige engineers get there is a selling point.
- Moru 8y ago
  On the other hand you have quite different mindset for work and parenthood. Everyone expects you to take at least half a year off work as a father. You still get payed during this time. Tax is calculated for you, all you need to do is sign (with your mobile ID). If you get sick you get payed after the first day. Hospital visit is about $8 per night. Doctor $20 per visit. It all depends on what is worth for you.
  - kochthesecond 8y ago
    Americans have the best care in the world (for those with decent insurance) but they also spend nearly 3x as much on health care than Britain. I wish I could cite these numbers, but I cant find the link anymore.
    - egourlao 8y ago
      > Americans have the best care in the world I've been reading that a lot, but I can't find any decisive evidence supporting it - what leads you to think that?
      - spiderfarmer 8y ago
        Arrogance.
    - pkz 8y ago
      This source says 2x as much: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2674671 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/26746...
      - kochthesecond 8y ago
        Yeah, I didn't find my old source, it was a news article I remembered that compared spending per capita and typical time to treat a condition. I did find this though that says 2x: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2674671 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2674671
    - 8y ago
- nabla9 8y ago
  You have a point but you argue it badly. Price of beer in a bar is a tourist measure. Wage of an engineer is a expat measure. The article talks about living, working, procreating and eventually dying in Sweden, so lets talk about that. Many things are expensive in Sweden. When we think about living, we must consider things that are not expensive. Swedish type system arguably very strongly directs and limits the choices from the economic perspective. - Beer is always expensive but dental care is always cheap. You can't choose between chugging more beer and having hole in your choppers. You can choose to having the hole if you insist, but the beer is still expensive. - You can't choose between more beer and good education and healthcare for your children. The Government has made that choice for you. - Similarly you are forced to live with affordable broadband due to government regulation enforced on companies to protect the consumer. The question of living is Sweden should be decided by thinking how much your own goals align with the government enforced baseline. Temporarily embarrassed millionaires don't want to live in Sweden.
  - mnsc 8y ago
    >Temporarily embarrassed millionaires don't want to live in Sweden. And most of all, we swedes who love to pay taxes don't want temporarily embarrassed millionaires to move here and start bitchig about "supporting lazy people"! You HN people really should stay were you are, regardless if that's in the states or in China, and if you are as brilliant as you say you are, fix that respective country first! Thanks in advance /not embarrassed lazy swedish fuck
    - shanghaiaway 8y ago
      I guess you vote for SD
      - sexydefinesher 8y ago
        The opinion expressed in the parent is not specifically exclusive to SD voters, you would probably be even more likely to find it among the red-green block even.
13415 8y ago
I guess someone has to state the obvious here. China has a totalitarian, one party government that puts a lot of efforts into total surveillance of their citizens. They are censoring the local intranet and even have "citizen scores" to create the worst dystopia possible. That alone seems like a good reason to work somewhere else.
theredbox 8y ago
Probably not. It depends from where you are moving but salaries in sweden are not that high and progressive taxation kills your chance of living a comfortable life. On top of that stupidly expensive housing.
- nabla9 8y ago
  > kills your chance of living a comfortable life You have not been in Sweden.
  - hoebaggins 8y ago
    Clearly not. I'm a swede and I used to live in the US, specifically the bay area, SF. I moved back to sweden 5 years ago and while I make less than half of what I did (~150k/year) while working and living in the US, my living standard here in sweden is so much better in every possible way. I make roughly the equivalent of $70k/year before taxes here in Sweden (it's above average) but I pay less half of what I used to pay for a 2 room apartment in the bay area but instead I get a 300 m2 architectural designed lake house less than 20 minutes from my office. Buying a house of this size and good location in the bay area would cost millions of dollars. I paid less than $400k. I work remote 3 days a week, I get 8 weeks of paid vacation a year (currently on vacation and I haven't been at work since 14th of december), universal healthcare plus free private healthcare (well "free" because I do pay $15 in fees once every visit) as one of my employee benefits, free lunches plus so called Rikskortet (can be used to buy meals at restaurants or groceries that for me covers the whole month), wellness benefits (basically means I get a free gym membership at whatever gym or physical activity I want), a company car ('17 Audi A7) where I only have to pay for gas which I rarely need to do because I live close to work and I work remote more than half the time. So basically I pay roughly the equivalent of $1500 a month in total (mortage, utility bills, insurance, food etc) for my current stress free life these days compared to when I used to live and work in the US where I paid $4000 a month just in rent alone for a small apartment. I'd say that I have a quite comfortable life at this point.
    - kochthesecond 8y ago
fdim 8y ago
Denmark is very similar as well, but I despise the tax on cars...
throwaway123322 8y ago
Sweden is worst place work imho. Even the janitor thinks he is on the same level as you and your half of your money goes for the education of his kids. Would you subscribe to a Goverment which averages out your genetic gains due to high IQ for average life?
chimtim 8y ago
For anyone not from Scandinavian countries or not used to the low sunlight and mostly cold weather, the downsides from the long-term side-effects of living in Sweden such as depression, low vitamin-D state significantly outweighs any short-term happiness.
- pkz 8y ago
  Most people, even those close to the arctic circle have sufficient vitamin D levels in Sweden [1]. Regarding depression, it would be great If you could state a source for the claim that long term residency in Sweden creates depression. [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4432023/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4432023/
- dorian-graph 8y ago
  I'd say the opposite of that, as an Australian who moved to Norway.
tziki 8y ago
> Top tier Chinese internet companies now offer higher salary compared to their Swedish counterparts This surprises me since the Glassdoor salaries for a software engineer for Tencent in Shanghai is about 200k yuan which is about $30k. AFAIK in Stockholm you could easily net at least twice that.
- pkz 8y ago
  Is 200K CNY correct? A garbage worker in Stockholm makes around 28K SEK/month (~ 258K CNY yearly).
  - EastToWest 8y ago
    It is -- that's salary for entry-level engineers / fresh graduates in Tier-1 cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen etc).
- hongchao 8y ago
  I don't know the details of the data in glassdoor, but most of my friends in China in the IT industry (at my age , usually senior devs) make more than my Swedish colleagues. And I worked in some of the best known companies in Sweden.
  - jxub 8y ago
    Indeed, recently there was an article making rounds here about senior engineers at the likes of Tencent earning 150-200k$ easily, though subject often to the infamous 669.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- digitalixus 8y ago
  That's because Glassdoor can be full of crap; it was useful a few years back but now it's flooded with HR spam that are fake reviews and damage control, and presumably a few fake salaries thrown in as well. Most salary numbers there seem to be posted by entry to mid level employees as well. Rarely ever do people from higher levels or getting paid a lot go on there to post what they make. Glassdoor can be relevant for American salaries thanks to the sheer quantity of figures being posted, but I've found salary fields to be sparsely populated for Germany (where I live now), and a few European and Asian countries I've checked out. It's kinda dangerous in the sense you could look up figures on Glassdoor and 9 times out of 10, you'll end up lowballing yourself if you try to negotiate salary IRL based on what you saw there.
pkz 8y ago
As some of the comments show, it is hard to have a meaningful discussion on taxes without comparing what you get for them (or what you have to pay extra for in other countries). I guess software developers in most countries belong to the topmost income stratas and will manage a good life in any taxation system. For people who don't make as much it is much more complicated I guess.
bjornedstrom 8y ago
10 years ago I would strongly recommend my highly educated friends from around the world to give Sweden a chance, but now I advise more caution, as in "wait and see". There is definitely inertia in the process, but in my view, born and lived in Sweden 33 years, Sweden is unfortunately going downhill. I do not look forward to see what the future brings in 5, 10, or 15 years from now on. Me and my girlfriend have discussed moving elsewhere because we feel we do not get what we pay for anymore. There are many fundamental issues that can only be solved by very unpopular political decisions, meaning nothing is done because it would be political suicide in the short/mid-term (the next 4-8 years). 1) While the Swedish state has strong finances, the Swedish communes (responsible for most of the practical welfare, like healthcare, education, and so on) are struggling significantly. Taxes likely need to be raised 5 percentage points over the next 10 years just to maintain the current level of welfare. And that is not factoring in the missing professionals, like teachers and nurses. These professions are very poorly compensated so a lot of them quit. On top of the issues with the communes, the Swedish households are among the most indebted in the world, due to cheap mortgages on houses and a housing bubble that is just slowly beginning to deflate. The next recession will be very tough. 2) Sweden has failed with immigrating all low-skilled refugees and economic migrants from third world countries. I think Sweden should be applauded for trying to do the humanitarian thing by helping people in need, but what has happened is that there have been too many low skilled people, too quickly for them to be absorbed into Sweden. This cohort of immigrants simply do not have the skills or education to not be an economic burden on the Swedish society. The costs are enormous. In Sweden the talk is about we've created an "ethnic lower class" that can only survive on welfare. The problem is a welfare state only works if a vast majority pitch in to the welfare state. This is a big contributing factor to many issues in Sweden right now. At the same time, the big unions and the Social Democratic party is hostile to skilled workers coming to Sweden because they may compete with the union members, leading to a lot of skilled engineers and similar being deported because of technicalities. So Sweden is basically doing the opposite of Canada: we are hostile to people who can contribute to Swedish society, but have been very welcoming to people who will never realistically contribute a dime to the Swedish welfare state. 3) There's shortage on housing in the big cities due to regulation and rent-control. There is absolutely no incentives to build new apartments because the return of investment is non-existing, and all the zoning regulations and similar makes it a multi-year project just to get permission to even start building. What happens is the only new apartment buildings being built are apartments that are so expensive only people the people who do not have a problem getting an apartment in the first place (due to being well off) can buy them. For the Swedish 99%, you either need to get lucky, take significant loans (which people have done due to almost 0% interest, which will be a catastrophe when the interests rates increase, which must happen within the next 5 years) or stand in the state apartment queue for 20-30 years. The only way to solve this realistically would be for the state to invest heavily in apartments, basically build away the shortage, and then remove the rent control. Finland did this. But it was highly unpopular. If you are in the top tier of your profession and you can basically get a job in whatever country you please, I'd hang on moving to Sweden right now.
munfred 8y ago
> One manifestation of equality in Sweden is that most companies are less layered and implement what’s called flat hierarchy. Employees are trusted to be involved directly in the decision making process rather than being instructed by layers of supervisors. Of course as companies grow larger, they can not be kept completely flat forever, but in regular big companies, hierachies are in many scenarios too excessive and counter-productive. As someone from a very hierachical society like China, I really enjoy working in Swedish companies, partly because I am not that interested in climbing up the management ladder but more interested in having a better technical career. In China, managers enjoy much higher social status than engineers because of the power that hierachical organization enables. Many good engineers are “forced” to take on a management position even if it turns out to be a bad fit and waste of talent. In my opinion, one of the reasons that Sweden became an innovation center in the world is because engineers can just focus on their technical career without getting too much social pressure to become something else. Interesting observation. If people are promoted to their "level of incompetence", perhaps not promoting people is indeed a solution...
- hongchao 8y ago
  I guess promoting people to a higher technical position (with equivalent compensation as managers) is another solution :)
vilhelmmoberg 8y ago
Did not expect such a positive post on Sweden given the negativity floating around these days. I made the decision to move back from a higher paying position abroad a few years ago, and most of it due to the points you bring up. Plus I'm Swedish so I can deal with the weather. In the end, a lower stress existence is more important to me than maximizing my earnings. A lot of the complaining you hear from Swedish people is because they haven't really experienced anything different. They have no idea how comfortable life is here (still). As a parent, I can barely fathom raising a child in the US for instance. Even the best companies will give you 4 months paid time off, if you're one of the lucky few working for FAANG. What the hell do you even do with a 4 month old after that time's up? They can't fucking even crawl yet. Not to mention the healthcare situation. The relief to just be able to walk into any hospital and just give your person number, and everything is just taken care of. No $20k bill because the hospital is out of your coverage or whatever. The main thing worrying me today is like you say, the immigration and crime situation. The current crime wave is not because of recent immigration but because of earlier waves. I don't want to find out what happens when 200k refugees and (mostly) their disillusioned sons turn to crime in about 18 years. Hopefully we can figure this out before then.
- kungtotte 8y ago
  If you read crime statistics reports from places like BRÅ, violent crime is actually down especially in proportion to the increasing population levels. Edit: Also, to add, during the Syrian refugee wave of 2015/2016, the second largest group to come here after Syrians were repatriating Swedes. We didn't get 200K war refugees during the wave on top of our regular immigration. It was 200K including repatriating Swedes and the normal immigration we see year over year.
  - vilhelmmoberg 8y ago
    Perhaps overall, but murders are up quite a bit: https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/mord-och-drap.html https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/m... Robberies: https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/ran.html https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/r... I certainly hope you're right though. But anecdotally, I know of enough people getting robbed with guns and knives that I don't feels as safe as I did 10 years ago. I pulled the 200k out of thin air. I'm talking more about the sum over the past few years rather than a specific peak.
pascalxus 8y ago
I know sweden is known for it's great work life balance, but I know of a co-worker who had a very different experience. he joined a start up and had to work extremely long hours 60-80 hours, people working weekends, much like it's done in the US. In theorey it's illegal, but what are you going to do? Things got so bad at that company, he needed to leave. You can't assume all companies are the same in Sweden.
- dsajames 8y ago
  If he left, why not report?

98 points by hongchao 8y ago

Sweden is really expensive. And don’t get me started on the price of a beer in a bar. Make sure they pay you a lot. It’s definitely a clean and well organized country with lots of nature. And it seems pretty great for tech. But would never move there.

badpun 8y ago
> And don’t get me started on the price of a beer in a bar. Make sure they pay you a lot. Also, check out taxes. I was offered a contract position in Sweden recently, and the total tax burden was around 55%. Thanks, but no thanks.
- theredbox 8y ago
  Sweden’s too egalitarian society with a lot of people not being economically active. You are subsidizing unwilling and lazy with insane taxes and you get nothing in return because of equality. You are probably well off compared to them but still cant afford an apartment.
  - Moru 8y ago
    This path of discussion is always fun to watch when it comes up. Does it work better in America with the lazy people, are they working better just because they make less money? Most people in Sweden can actually live on one job even if it is as a cleaner. The people that you call lazy is a very small percentage of the population. And just about all of them has some physical or psycical problem preventing them from getting a job. It is not a choice they have to either go work or starve. Noone chooses to starve just because it's fun. This mentality is very upsetting for us that has seen reality and does not live in a glass house.
    - badpun 8y ago
      Nordic countries are maybe the best place on earth if you’re not gifted in any way (academically, dexterity for manual labor etc.) and thus you work as a cleaner or other unskilled labor. For software engineers, on the other hand, there are better options.
      - vasilipupkin 8y ago
        Nonsense as Sweden has more per capita billionaires than US and more unicorn startups per capita than most US cities
        theredbox 8y ago
        Talk about arbitrary numbers you used.
        vasilipupkin 8y ago
        These directly refute the claim that Sweden is only a good place for people who lack talent
        badpun 8y ago
        Most billionaires inherit their wealth? As for startups, it would be better to see the success ratio (how many people tried to create a startup vs how many succeed) and not just the number of survivors.
        vasilipupkin 8y ago
        We are discussing the claim that talented people can’t succeed in Sweden. Yet, higher per capita number of unicorns in Sweden than in many other places, including US, shows that this claim is false
        badpun 8y ago
  - beefield 8y ago
    > Sweden’s too egalitarian society Any examples of societies that are unequal[1] enough for you? [1] Not sure about a proper antonym here.
- hoebaggins 8y ago
  "It's cool to pay taxes" - Mona Sahlin, former leader of the Swedish Social Democratic Party.
  - SiempreViernes 8y ago
    A better tagline than "strong and steady" at least
  - theredbox 8y ago
    It is not cool to be at the mercy of the government and their ability to run the state. They already failed with housing and healthcare. While the healthcare is free and accessible it is slow, bureacratic and costs you more at the end of the day than you would be willing to pay with your own money.
    - myspy 8y ago
      And what is better? Healthcare costs a fortune as seen in the US and the system is failing, when you are a humanitarian and think equality to all humans is important. Same with housing. Rich fools conquering large towns and driving everyone else out. Does that benefit society? Of course when you support a system that everyone is his own best friend, you'll be happier when all the money you earn goes to you.
    - robin_reala 8y ago
      At the moment Swedes have less government that most other countries.
- geomark 8y ago
  But the Swedes are fine with it, as is the author of the post, because they feel they get their money's worth. The author went into quite a bit of detail about he doesn't have to save much for his childrens' education and some other major expenses since most will be covered by tax-payers. Assuming of course that the government is fiscally prudent for the many years until your kids start higher education and you are elderly and need a lot of medical care. Given how popular it is around the world to run huge deficits that end up requiring major cuts to services I wouldn't bet my future on it.
  - badpun 8y ago
    The state-provided services are similar in Poland - most notably: free healthcare, free education up to university, state pension, disability insurance, some help in case the of financial hardship. Meanwhile, the total income tax burden is around 35% or 20% if you’re self-employed. There’s also plenty of other options, like the UK.
    - badpun 8y ago
      Can the downvoter explain his/her decision? What is wrong with my post?
  - queuq 8y ago
    We are not fine with it. It's a bit off topic, but all I can see online about Sweden always sounds so perfect. But in reality it's not. There's a lot of us Swedes that are long from fine paying these taxes and then see our friends/relatives waiting for half a year waiting for treatment for cancer. And if you'd like private healthcare, Sweden taxes you extra for that. New car? Triple tax first 3 years.
    - geomark 8y ago
      I was wondering if there are dissenting opinions. What percentage of Swedes do you estimate feel the way you do?
      - 8y ago
uvesten 8y ago
Compared to most other countries in western europe, engineers are severely underpaid in Sweden. I’d definitely go elsewhere.
- theredbox 8y ago
  Engineers in europe are underpaid everywhere. You cant have a social democracy without squeezing everyone around you out of every penny.
  - bauerd 8y ago
    Underpaid in relation to what? The bay area?
    - theredbox 8y ago
      In relation to the rest of the world.
    - gaius 8y ago
      Underpaid relative to other professions. Lawyers, accountants, doctors, MBAs, etc etc. Even civil servants once the final salary pensions are factored in. Low pay, low prestige (if that matters to you), low job security, relative to others at a similar level of education, responsibility, etc.
      - freyir 8y ago
        > "Lawyers, accountants, doctors, MBAs ... Low pay, low prestige" But that's true almost everywhere. In the U.S. it's true everywhere outside of the Bay Area, and perhaps Seattle. I love Boston, for example, but the city is chock full of bankers, lawyers, management consultants, and doctors whose incomes often dwarf those of engineers. And they're much higher on the social ladder. You're priced out of the most desirable neighborhoods in the city, and if you're single, dating is tougher. Obviously, it's not the end of the world. 99% of people don't make as much as investment bankers or white-shoe lawyers, and life goes on. But I think it explains in part why engineers are drawn to the Bay Area. The sky-high cost-of-living may make it a break-even proposition, but the bit of prestige engineers get there is a selling point.
Moru 8y ago
On the other hand you have quite different mindset for work and parenthood. Everyone expects you to take at least half a year off work as a father. You still get payed during this time. Tax is calculated for you, all you need to do is sign (with your mobile ID). If you get sick you get payed after the first day. Hospital visit is about $8 per night. Doctor $20 per visit. It all depends on what is worth for you.
- kochthesecond 8y ago
  Americans have the best care in the world (for those with decent insurance) but they also spend nearly 3x as much on health care than Britain. I wish I could cite these numbers, but I cant find the link anymore.
  - egourlao 8y ago
    > Americans have the best care in the world I've been reading that a lot, but I can't find any decisive evidence supporting it - what leads you to think that?
    - spiderfarmer 8y ago
      Arrogance.
  - pkz 8y ago
    This source says 2x as much: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/2674671 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/article-abstract/26746...
    - kochthesecond 8y ago
      Yeah, I didn't find my old source, it was a news article I remembered that compared spending per capita and typical time to treat a condition. I did find this though that says 2x: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2674671 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2674671
  - 8y ago
nabla9 8y ago
You have a point but you argue it badly. Price of beer in a bar is a tourist measure. Wage of an engineer is a expat measure. The article talks about living, working, procreating and eventually dying in Sweden, so lets talk about that. Many things are expensive in Sweden. When we think about living, we must consider things that are not expensive. Swedish type system arguably very strongly directs and limits the choices from the economic perspective. - Beer is always expensive but dental care is always cheap. You can't choose between chugging more beer and having hole in your choppers. You can choose to having the hole if you insist, but the beer is still expensive. - You can't choose between more beer and good education and healthcare for your children. The Government has made that choice for you. - Similarly you are forced to live with affordable broadband due to government regulation enforced on companies to protect the consumer. The question of living is Sweden should be decided by thinking how much your own goals align with the government enforced baseline. Temporarily embarrassed millionaires don't want to live in Sweden.
- mnsc 8y ago
  >Temporarily embarrassed millionaires don't want to live in Sweden. And most of all, we swedes who love to pay taxes don't want temporarily embarrassed millionaires to move here and start bitchig about "supporting lazy people"! You HN people really should stay were you are, regardless if that's in the states or in China, and if you are as brilliant as you say you are, fix that respective country first! Thanks in advance /not embarrassed lazy swedish fuck
  - shanghaiaway 8y ago
    I guess you vote for SD
    - sexydefinesher 8y ago
      The opinion expressed in the parent is not specifically exclusive to SD voters, you would probably be even more likely to find it among the red-green block even.

13415 8y ago

I guess someone has to state the obvious here. China has a totalitarian, one party government that puts a lot of efforts into total surveillance of their citizens. They are censoring the local intranet and even have "citizen scores" to create the worst dystopia possible. That alone seems like a good reason to work somewhere else.

theredbox 8y ago

Probably not. It depends from where you are moving but salaries in sweden are not that high and progressive taxation kills your chance of living a comfortable life. On top of that stupidly expensive housing.

nabla9 8y ago
> kills your chance of living a comfortable life You have not been in Sweden.
- hoebaggins 8y ago
  Clearly not. I'm a swede and I used to live in the US, specifically the bay area, SF. I moved back to sweden 5 years ago and while I make less than half of what I did (~150k/year) while working and living in the US, my living standard here in sweden is so much better in every possible way. I make roughly the equivalent of $70k/year before taxes here in Sweden (it's above average) but I pay less half of what I used to pay for a 2 room apartment in the bay area but instead I get a 300 m2 architectural designed lake house less than 20 minutes from my office. Buying a house of this size and good location in the bay area would cost millions of dollars. I paid less than $400k. I work remote 3 days a week, I get 8 weeks of paid vacation a year (currently on vacation and I haven't been at work since 14th of december), universal healthcare plus free private healthcare (well "free" because I do pay $15 in fees once every visit) as one of my employee benefits, free lunches plus so called Rikskortet (can be used to buy meals at restaurants or groceries that for me covers the whole month), wellness benefits (basically means I get a free gym membership at whatever gym or physical activity I want), a company car ('17 Audi A7) where I only have to pay for gas which I rarely need to do because I live close to work and I work remote more than half the time. So basically I pay roughly the equivalent of $1500 a month in total (mortage, utility bills, insurance, food etc) for my current stress free life these days compared to when I used to live and work in the US where I paid $4000 a month just in rent alone for a small apartment. I'd say that I have a quite comfortable life at this point.
  - kochthesecond 8y ago

fdim 8y ago

Denmark is very similar as well, but I despise the tax on cars...

throwaway123322 8y ago

Sweden is worst place work imho. Even the janitor thinks he is on the same level as you and your half of your money goes for the education of his kids. Would you subscribe to a Goverment which averages out your genetic gains due to high IQ for average life?

chimtim 8y ago

For anyone not from Scandinavian countries or not used to the low sunlight and mostly cold weather, the downsides from the long-term side-effects of living in Sweden such as depression, low vitamin-D state significantly outweighs any short-term happiness.

pkz 8y ago
Most people, even those close to the arctic circle have sufficient vitamin D levels in Sweden [1]. Regarding depression, it would be great If you could state a source for the claim that long term residency in Sweden creates depression. [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4432023/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4432023/
dorian-graph 8y ago
I'd say the opposite of that, as an Australian who moved to Norway.

tziki 8y ago

> Top tier Chinese internet companies now offer higher salary compared to their Swedish counterparts This surprises me since the Glassdoor salaries for a software engineer for Tencent in Shanghai is about 200k yuan which is about $30k. AFAIK in Stockholm you could easily net at least twice that.

pkz 8y ago
Is 200K CNY correct? A garbage worker in Stockholm makes around 28K SEK/month (~ 258K CNY yearly).
- EastToWest 8y ago
  It is -- that's salary for entry-level engineers / fresh graduates in Tier-1 cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen etc).
hongchao 8y ago
I don't know the details of the data in glassdoor, but most of my friends in China in the IT industry (at my age , usually senior devs) make more than my Swedish colleagues. And I worked in some of the best known companies in Sweden.
- jxub 8y ago
  Indeed, recently there was an article making rounds here about senior engineers at the likes of Tencent earning 150-200k$ easily, though subject often to the infamous 669.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
digitalixus 8y ago
That's because Glassdoor can be full of crap; it was useful a few years back but now it's flooded with HR spam that are fake reviews and damage control, and presumably a few fake salaries thrown in as well. Most salary numbers there seem to be posted by entry to mid level employees as well. Rarely ever do people from higher levels or getting paid a lot go on there to post what they make. Glassdoor can be relevant for American salaries thanks to the sheer quantity of figures being posted, but I've found salary fields to be sparsely populated for Germany (where I live now), and a few European and Asian countries I've checked out. It's kinda dangerous in the sense you could look up figures on Glassdoor and 9 times out of 10, you'll end up lowballing yourself if you try to negotiate salary IRL based on what you saw there.

pkz 8y ago

As some of the comments show, it is hard to have a meaningful discussion on taxes without comparing what you get for them (or what you have to pay extra for in other countries). I guess software developers in most countries belong to the topmost income stratas and will manage a good life in any taxation system. For people who don't make as much it is much more complicated I guess.

bjornedstrom 8y ago

10 years ago I would strongly recommend my highly educated friends from around the world to give Sweden a chance, but now I advise more caution, as in "wait and see". There is definitely inertia in the process, but in my view, born and lived in Sweden 33 years, Sweden is unfortunately going downhill. I do not look forward to see what the future brings in 5, 10, or 15 years from now on. Me and my girlfriend have discussed moving elsewhere because we feel we do not get what we pay for anymore. There are many fundamental issues that can only be solved by very unpopular political decisions, meaning nothing is done because it would be political suicide in the short/mid-term (the next 4-8 years). 1) While the Swedish state has strong finances, the Swedish communes (responsible for most of the practical welfare, like healthcare, education, and so on) are struggling significantly. Taxes likely need to be raised 5 percentage points over the next 10 years just to maintain the current level of welfare. And that is not factoring in the missing professionals, like teachers and nurses. These professions are very poorly compensated so a lot of them quit. On top of the issues with the communes, the Swedish households are among the most indebted in the world, due to cheap mortgages on houses and a housing bubble that is just slowly beginning to deflate. The next recession will be very tough. 2) Sweden has failed with immigrating all low-skilled refugees and economic migrants from third world countries. I think Sweden should be applauded for trying to do the humanitarian thing by helping people in need, but what has happened is that there have been too many low skilled people, too quickly for them to be absorbed into Sweden. This cohort of immigrants simply do not have the skills or education to not be an economic burden on the Swedish society. The costs are enormous. In Sweden the talk is about we've created an "ethnic lower class" that can only survive on welfare. The problem is a welfare state only works if a vast majority pitch in to the welfare state. This is a big contributing factor to many issues in Sweden right now. At the same time, the big unions and the Social Democratic party is hostile to skilled workers coming to Sweden because they may compete with the union members, leading to a lot of skilled engineers and similar being deported because of technicalities. So Sweden is basically doing the opposite of Canada: we are hostile to people who can contribute to Swedish society, but have been very welcoming to people who will never realistically contribute a dime to the Swedish welfare state. 3) There's shortage on housing in the big cities due to regulation and rent-control. There is absolutely no incentives to build new apartments because the return of investment is non-existing, and all the zoning regulations and similar makes it a multi-year project just to get permission to even start building. What happens is the only new apartment buildings being built are apartments that are so expensive only people the people who do not have a problem getting an apartment in the first place (due to being well off) can buy them. For the Swedish 99%, you either need to get lucky, take significant loans (which people have done due to almost 0% interest, which will be a catastrophe when the interests rates increase, which must happen within the next 5 years) or stand in the state apartment queue for 20-30 years. The only way to solve this realistically would be for the state to invest heavily in apartments, basically build away the shortage, and then remove the rent control. Finland did this. But it was highly unpopular. If you are in the top tier of your profession and you can basically get a job in whatever country you please, I'd hang on moving to Sweden right now.

munfred 8y ago

> One manifestation of equality in Sweden is that most companies are less layered and implement what’s called flat hierarchy. Employees are trusted to be involved directly in the decision making process rather than being instructed by layers of supervisors. Of course as companies grow larger, they can not be kept completely flat forever, but in regular big companies, hierachies are in many scenarios too excessive and counter-productive. As someone from a very hierachical society like China, I really enjoy working in Swedish companies, partly because I am not that interested in climbing up the management ladder but more interested in having a better technical career. In China, managers enjoy much higher social status than engineers because of the power that hierachical organization enables. Many good engineers are “forced” to take on a management position even if it turns out to be a bad fit and waste of talent. In my opinion, one of the reasons that Sweden became an innovation center in the world is because engineers can just focus on their technical career without getting too much social pressure to become something else. Interesting observation. If people are promoted to their "level of incompetence", perhaps not promoting people is indeed a solution...

hongchao 8y ago
I guess promoting people to a higher technical position (with equivalent compensation as managers) is another solution :)

vilhelmmoberg 8y ago

Did not expect such a positive post on Sweden given the negativity floating around these days. I made the decision to move back from a higher paying position abroad a few years ago, and most of it due to the points you bring up. Plus I'm Swedish so I can deal with the weather. In the end, a lower stress existence is more important to me than maximizing my earnings. A lot of the complaining you hear from Swedish people is because they haven't really experienced anything different. They have no idea how comfortable life is here (still). As a parent, I can barely fathom raising a child in the US for instance. Even the best companies will give you 4 months paid time off, if you're one of the lucky few working for FAANG. What the hell do you even do with a 4 month old after that time's up? They can't fucking even crawl yet. Not to mention the healthcare situation. The relief to just be able to walk into any hospital and just give your person number, and everything is just taken care of. No $20k bill because the hospital is out of your coverage or whatever. The main thing worrying me today is like you say, the immigration and crime situation. The current crime wave is not because of recent immigration but because of earlier waves. I don't want to find out what happens when 200k refugees and (mostly) their disillusioned sons turn to crime in about 18 years. Hopefully we can figure this out before then.

kungtotte 8y ago
If you read crime statistics reports from places like BRÅ, violent crime is actually down especially in proportion to the increasing population levels. Edit: Also, to add, during the Syrian refugee wave of 2015/2016, the second largest group to come here after Syrians were repatriating Swedes. We didn't get 200K war refugees during the wave on top of our regular immigration. It was 200K including repatriating Swedes and the normal immigration we see year over year.
- vilhelmmoberg 8y ago
  Perhaps overall, but murders are up quite a bit: https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/mord-och-drap.html https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/m... Robberies: https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/ran.html https://www.bra.se/statistik/statistik-utifran-brottstyper/r... I certainly hope you're right though. But anecdotally, I know of enough people getting robbed with guns and knives that I don't feels as safe as I did 10 years ago. I pulled the 200k out of thin air. I'm talking more about the sum over the past few years rather than a specific peak.

pascalxus 8y ago

I know sweden is known for it's great work life balance, but I know of a co-worker who had a very different experience. he joined a start up and had to work extremely long hours 60-80 hours, people working weekends, much like it's done in the US. In theorey it's illegal, but what are you going to do? Things got so bad at that company, he needed to leave. You can't assume all companies are the same in Sweden.

dsajames 8y ago
If he left, why not report?