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Every employee is expected "to be able to fill out reports, spreadsheets, provide data metrics, understand the work place harassment polices, health care benefi

Every employee is expected "to be able to fill out reports, spreadsheets, provide data metrics, understand the work place harassment polices, health care benefits, present in team meetings, etc.." Engineers are not special.

ohazi 8y ago
I hear a lot more cases of "disfunctional company struggles to hire/retain good engineers," "non-technical founder seeks engineer to do all the work," etc. than the converse (firms with good engineering talent struggling to find good management). So maybe engineers are special? They can certainly afford be more choosey about who they decide to work for. It probably makes sense for a company to treat engineers as special if engineering is a critical part of the business. No good engineer is going to want to work for someone with an attitude like yours.
- shanghaiaway 8y ago
  Sounds like you're in a filter bubble. Can't have good engineering without good management.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ohazi 8y ago
    > Can't have good engineering without good management. This is not even remotely true.
    - whb07 8y ago
      One could have a “good” engineer but the engineering team/dept/section will be lackluster. A strong engine without a rudder is meaningless and vice versa. There is a reason why leadership of teams/section/department etc has the responsibilities and accordingly higher pay.
zepolen 8y ago
I know over three engineers who left their companies because of the stringent bureaucracy expectations, filling out reports and the like. It was boring to them. They all got new jobs within a week. Unlike other positions, for engineers, it's the companies that are replaceable, not the employees. Engineers are special whether we like it or not.
- Matthias247 8y ago
  > Unlike other positions, for engineers, it's the companies that are replaceable, not the employees. I read that a few times in this thread, but I'm not sure whether it's as true as pictured here. Maybe in some bubble environments (bay area and Seattle). But for most of us other engineers there isn't necessarily the next employer around the corner - even for those with exceptional skills.
  - qualsiasi 8y ago
    So Italy is in the bubble :) Good to know So many positions for sw. engineers and so little experienced professionals to fulfill all those job openings, at least in my zone.
    - Matthias247 8y ago
      I can’t tell about Italy. But eg in Germany the air would be quite thin if one looks for a software position above 80k€ or even 100k€ (yes, there might be enough options in the 50k€ range). Wouldn’t have expected italy to be much different
      - qualsiasi 8y ago
        With 5 years of experience in (northern) Italy there are plenty of job offers in the 35-40k range, which I think is roughly equivalent to 60+k in Germany, maybe 70ish. Note that I don't live in Germany so my numbers may be wrong, in that case well... let me know :)
Aeolun 8y ago
Engineers are special in that they ideally understand every aspect of your business if you want them to be most effective.
- shanghaiaway 8y ago
  Nope, not special.
elmerfud 8y ago
No where was I making the point that engineers are special. It's that other teams not not special, but they get to be special by being allowed to not understand one core group of employees. To foster a good environment, culture and cooperation between teams it's important that there is a strong crossover in skills and knowledge. Your response is making my point that other teams do view themselves as special by blatantly ignoring the basic skills of the engineers. For everyone of those items there are dedicated teams who are the experts, but companies expect that all employees have a functional knowledge of them. So, why do they not expect that, in a tech company, those dedicated teams to have a functional knowledge of engineering. There is no communication without a common frame of reference.
dangerface 8y ago
You wouldn't expect a receptionist to be able to do the job of an engineer why would you expect an engineer to be able to do the job of a receptionist? Expecting every employee to be good at every job is just dumb.

ohazi 8y ago

I hear a lot more cases of "disfunctional company struggles to hire/retain good engineers," "non-technical founder seeks engineer to do all the work," etc. than the converse (firms with good engineering talent struggling to find good management). So maybe engineers are special? They can certainly afford be more choosey about who they decide to work for. It probably makes sense for a company to treat engineers as special if engineering is a critical part of the business. No good engineer is going to want to work for someone with an attitude like yours.

shanghaiaway 8y ago
Sounds like you're in a filter bubble. Can't have good engineering without good management.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ohazi 8y ago
  > Can't have good engineering without good management. This is not even remotely true.
  - whb07 8y ago
    One could have a “good” engineer but the engineering team/dept/section will be lackluster. A strong engine without a rudder is meaningless and vice versa. There is a reason why leadership of teams/section/department etc has the responsibilities and accordingly higher pay.

zepolen 8y ago

I know over three engineers who left their companies because of the stringent bureaucracy expectations, filling out reports and the like. It was boring to them. They all got new jobs within a week. Unlike other positions, for engineers, it's the companies that are replaceable, not the employees. Engineers are special whether we like it or not.

Matthias247 8y ago
> Unlike other positions, for engineers, it's the companies that are replaceable, not the employees. I read that a few times in this thread, but I'm not sure whether it's as true as pictured here. Maybe in some bubble environments (bay area and Seattle). But for most of us other engineers there isn't necessarily the next employer around the corner - even for those with exceptional skills.
- qualsiasi 8y ago
  So Italy is in the bubble :) Good to know So many positions for sw. engineers and so little experienced professionals to fulfill all those job openings, at least in my zone.
  - Matthias247 8y ago
    I can’t tell about Italy. But eg in Germany the air would be quite thin if one looks for a software position above 80k€ or even 100k€ (yes, there might be enough options in the 50k€ range). Wouldn’t have expected italy to be much different
    - qualsiasi 8y ago
      With 5 years of experience in (northern) Italy there are plenty of job offers in the 35-40k range, which I think is roughly equivalent to 60+k in Germany, maybe 70ish. Note that I don't live in Germany so my numbers may be wrong, in that case well... let me know :)

Aeolun 8y ago

Engineers are special in that they ideally understand every aspect of your business if you want them to be most effective.

shanghaiaway 8y ago
Nope, not special.

elmerfud 8y ago

No where was I making the point that engineers are special. It's that other teams not not special, but they get to be special by being allowed to not understand one core group of employees. To foster a good environment, culture and cooperation between teams it's important that there is a strong crossover in skills and knowledge. Your response is making my point that other teams do view themselves as special by blatantly ignoring the basic skills of the engineers. For everyone of those items there are dedicated teams who are the experts, but companies expect that all employees have a functional knowledge of them. So, why do they not expect that, in a tech company, those dedicated teams to have a functional knowledge of engineering. There is no communication without a common frame of reference.

dangerface 8y ago

You wouldn't expect a receptionist to be able to do the job of an engineer why would you expect an engineer to be able to do the job of a receptionist? Expecting every employee to be good at every job is just dumb.