6 ms·

What's to stop nation states from pursuing eugenics projects behind closed doors? Should it be assumed they already are?

shhehebehdh 8y ago
The main thing to stop it is that we don’t know what genes to target to make super humans. If we did, someone would probably try. As perhaps they should, under some ethical systems.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  They dont need super humans to gain technological superiority... just the best hackers: engineers and scientists. Our relatively enlarged skulls are the result of a random mutation which gave some human/monkey, 2.4 million years ago, a diminutive, inferior jaw.(1) They would have looked like a freak at the time. Russian scientists have bred dog-like creatures from wolves in the last century. In other words, they dont necessarily need to know which genes or pairings produce their desired results. Trial and error is sufficient. And I dont imagine every nation state is beholden to ethical standards. All they'd need is educated guesses, and then to select their desired traits from a litter of humans, euthanize the rest, and repeat. Hopefully this is not happening, as it makes me feel ill to think about. Of course, human gestation and maturity has a longer turnover, but gene editing could produce accelerated results compared to classical breeding of traits. 1-https://www.nature.com/news/2004/040322/full/news040322-9.html https://www.nature.com/news/2004/040322/full/news040322-9.ht...
  - webmaven 8y ago
    > Russian scientists have bred dog-like creatures from wolves in the last century. Foxes, not wolves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_red_fox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_red_fox
mrep 8y ago
Well, china is already harvesting organs from political prisoners so that isn't too far of a stretch [0]. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_...
- chii 8y ago
  Harvesting organs can directly benefit the regime. The risk is bad PR, but that may be mitigated by making it secret. The gene editing of embryoes, if successful, benefits only the unborn and their future generation. The political party (and those in charge) don't directly benefit - but they suffer the bad PR and backlash if failure happens. The cost/benefit analysis tells me that this isn't worth risking at all.
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    I mean it wouldn't be the first time a leader builtna foundation for their successive generation.
logicchains 8y ago
In past China openly pursued eugenics projects: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-01-17-9501170115-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-01-17-950117... (no idea if it still happens).
- baybal2 8y ago
  >no idea if it still happens It does. Medical check is a prerequisite for a marriage certificate. Children born outside marriage are doomed to nonpersonhood
tanilama 8y ago
The technology is risky enough I am sure normal parents won't attempt to put their kids for experiments. And I am sure nations won't be interested in this as well, because the risk is high, the failures are unknown, and for the most part, the reward gets too long to reap.
- Farradfahren 8y ago
  What about desperate people going through desperate times? Having Hutingtons, hoping for a cure for any kids you want to have?
  - tanilama 8y ago
    If you make the doctor liable, then I don't think any one of them will help in that regard.
kart23 8y ago
The US was all for eugenics in the past until Hitler copied them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_State...
- noir_lord 8y ago
  Yes but that was a considerable period of time ago (in relative terms). Also it is almost directly the result of what the western powers (and Japan did) in that period that we have the incredibly strict ethics regime around medical research to this day. I think when it comes any of this stuff the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle is the best framework we have at present.
webmaven 8y ago
About the only country that currently might be able to conduct such a program in secret is North Korea. And if they haven't done so yet, the publicity around this incident could push them over the edge.

shhehebehdh 8y ago

The main thing to stop it is that we don’t know what genes to target to make super humans. If we did, someone would probably try. As perhaps they should, under some ethical systems.

wallace_f 8y ago
They dont need super humans to gain technological superiority... just the best hackers: engineers and scientists. Our relatively enlarged skulls are the result of a random mutation which gave some human/monkey, 2.4 million years ago, a diminutive, inferior jaw.(1) They would have looked like a freak at the time. Russian scientists have bred dog-like creatures from wolves in the last century. In other words, they dont necessarily need to know which genes or pairings produce their desired results. Trial and error is sufficient. And I dont imagine every nation state is beholden to ethical standards. All they'd need is educated guesses, and then to select their desired traits from a litter of humans, euthanize the rest, and repeat. Hopefully this is not happening, as it makes me feel ill to think about. Of course, human gestation and maturity has a longer turnover, but gene editing could produce accelerated results compared to classical breeding of traits. 1-https://www.nature.com/news/2004/040322/full/news040322-9.html https://www.nature.com/news/2004/040322/full/news040322-9.ht...
- webmaven 8y ago
  > Russian scientists have bred dog-like creatures from wolves in the last century. Foxes, not wolves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_red_fox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_red_fox

mrep 8y ago

Well, china is already harvesting organs from political prisoners so that isn't too far of a stretch [0]. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_...

chii 8y ago
Harvesting organs can directly benefit the regime. The risk is bad PR, but that may be mitigated by making it secret. The gene editing of embryoes, if successful, benefits only the unborn and their future generation. The political party (and those in charge) don't directly benefit - but they suffer the bad PR and backlash if failure happens. The cost/benefit analysis tells me that this isn't worth risking at all.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  I mean it wouldn't be the first time a leader builtna foundation for their successive generation.

logicchains 8y ago

In past China openly pursued eugenics projects: https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-01-17-9501170115-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1995-01-17-950117... (no idea if it still happens).

baybal2 8y ago
>no idea if it still happens It does. Medical check is a prerequisite for a marriage certificate. Children born outside marriage are doomed to nonpersonhood

tanilama 8y ago

The technology is risky enough I am sure normal parents won't attempt to put their kids for experiments. And I am sure nations won't be interested in this as well, because the risk is high, the failures are unknown, and for the most part, the reward gets too long to reap.

Farradfahren 8y ago
What about desperate people going through desperate times? Having Hutingtons, hoping for a cure for any kids you want to have?
- tanilama 8y ago
  If you make the doctor liable, then I don't think any one of them will help in that regard.

kart23 8y ago

The US was all for eugenics in the past until Hitler copied them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_State...

noir_lord 8y ago
Yes but that was a considerable period of time ago (in relative terms). Also it is almost directly the result of what the western powers (and Japan did) in that period that we have the incredibly strict ethics regime around medical research to this day. I think when it comes any of this stuff the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle is the best framework we have at present.

webmaven 8y ago

About the only country that currently might be able to conduct such a program in secret is North Korea. And if they haven't done so yet, the publicity around this incident could push them over the edge.