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Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
- Waterluvian 8y agoThis is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.
- reaperducer 8y agoThe professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. What do they call people who drive trains in Ontario?
- iamdave 8y agoI'm putting my chips on them using the same word we do in the US: conductors? Or is that the other fella in the train
- tomjakubowski 8y agoThe conductor manages all aspects of the train other than its locomotion. Oh, and they serve as the engineer's eyes when locomoving in reverse. :-)
- mLuby 8y agoThis is why I love HN. You learn things you didn't even know you didn't know!
- vonmoltke 8y ago> Oh, and they serve as the engineer's eyes when locomoving in reverse. :-) Not on any system I've taken in the US. The trains have a special control car on the non-locomotive end of the train, and the engineer switches positions when switching travel directions. There is also the practice of using two or more locomotives, with at least one pair facing opposite directions so the set can be hitched to either side of the train, and dual-cab locomotives that can also be hitched to either side with a forward-facing control deck.
- Waterluvian 8y agoNot exactly sure. I just know about this: http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php?ci_id=1824&la_id=1#software http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php?ci_id=1824&la_id=1#software
- alphakilo 8y agoAnything without engineering. Engineers in Ontario have a licencing like becoming a lawyer or doctor. All people studying in Canada are in programs that are accredited by the CAEB.
- swalberg 8y agoIn neighbouring Manitoba there's a carve out for locomotive engineers, power engineers, and certain types of electrical work, as long as they're certified by their respective bodies and not pretending to be a different kind of engineer. Didn't see anything in the Ontario act but I wouldn't be surprised if it were there somewhere. edit: https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/e120e.php#66 https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/e120e.php#66 section J
- swalberg 8y agoJust to follow up on my own post, on slide 29 of http://peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/23480/la_id/1.htm http://peo.on.ca/index.php/ci_id/23480/la_id/1.htm there's mention that some of those types of engineers are covered by other provincial/federal regulations and are exempt as long as they're doing the type of work they're licensed to do.
- redryder 8y agoThe title engineer is not about trains/engines...you learn that in engineering school..
- whitexn--g28h 8y agoQualified Locomotive Engineer, this is a federally regulated title in that context as well. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-87-150/fulltext.html https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-87-150/f...
- loeg 8y agoMaybe you can call yourself a Software Physician instead ;-).
- pgeorgi 8y agoComputer Therapist
- Waterluvian 8y agoCertified Code Doctor from Code Camp!
- jpambrun 8y agoIf you are performing reserved acts from Ontario you are infringing regardless of how you call yourself.
- Waterluvian 8y agoI imagine that's impossible to do in the software world. Overwhelming majority of software developers are not registered engineers.
- jpambrun 8y agoSomething public safety can be at risk in the software world. Medical devices immediately comes to mind (look up Therac-25). Some software acts are reserved. Most of my friends are registered software engineers.
- Waterluvian 8y agoFor sure. And there's safety certifications and regulations for these kinds of things. I have friends who develop for medical devices. Most aren't professional engineers. But there are some and I imagine they're the ones taking on the liability.
- kyrra 8y agoPrevious discussion from 2 years ago when the man was fined $500 for this. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14197512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14197512
- klipt 8y agoDoes free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
- sandov 8y agoDoes free speech mean anyone can call themselves an alien? a gnome? a horse? If you can call yourself a horse, then it makes sense that you can also call yourself a doctor.
- Rjevski 8y agoMaybe context should be taken into account? I have no problems with people calling themselves doctors (whether fake or real) unless they are doing so in order to gain a certain advantage (trust, credibility, etc). I only have a problem when someone pretends to be a doctor if they're trying to profit or harm people in some way, by for example making medication or similar.
- pkaye 8y agoWhat if one changes their last name to "MD"
- AnimalMuppet 8y agoWell, they can call themselves whatever gender they want. Why not species? If I self-identify as a hobbit, who are you to question it?
- caleblloyd 8y agoWhy not, Doctor Dre has been doing it for years.
- james_s_tayler 8y agoDr Pepper
- iamdave 8y agoNot a person. Literally incapable of practicing medicine. Or anything beyond the quenching of thirst. Now if there were a graduate degree for that, I'd audit a class or two.
- ibash 8y ago“Jarlstrom’s interest stemmed from a red-light-running ticket his wife received in 2013. He spent three years analyzing the method for calculating the duration of a yellow light and found that the formula failed to account for drivers who must slow down to make a legal turn.” Quacks like a duck.
- tree_of_item 8y agoActually it struck me as really tenacious of him and I'd be willing to believe he has some merit. I'd like to see the data.
- sneakernets 8y agoI read the comments on the article, and looks like some of his colleagues posted on there saying he had embarrassed some good ol' boys, and the good Lord knows we can't have that, now can we?
- sneakernets 8y agoThat may be the most "engineer" thing I've read in a while. :-) I wouldn't be surprised if he uncovered something involving the timing of traffic lights that the state engineers knew about, but never did anything about it since it increased the chance of driver violations ever so slightly, and, therefore, more sources of revenue. It's not cynical if it's true, you know.
- exabrial 8y agoSorry, but you didn't pay the special tax for the special piece of paper from the "us" government that that magically makes you qualified to do calculations. Do not pass go, go straight to jail.
- loeg 8y agoIt's a title licensed by individual state boards, rather than the federal government.
- c3534l 8y agoI know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that you have the legal right to sue someone for not following rules you've decided the rest of the world should follow despite having no moral or legal justification to do so? That's incredibly scummy.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- TheSoftwareGuy 8y agoI don’t think that’s what is happening here. The suit seems to be predicated on him calling himself an engineer
- pstrateman 8y agoDid they invent the word engineer?
- greglindahl 8y agoWhere I live, people call themselves engineers all of the time, and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation.
- markdown 8y ago> and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation. Which sucks, doesn't it. It's advertising (ie. a lie) that's been repeated so much that it's become accepted. I know many software "engineers". They aren't real engineers, they just didn't like being called software programmers or coders.
- 8y ago
- trestletech 8y agoAbout time! Jeff, PE, MD, CPA, JD, CFA
- MetalGuru 8y ago“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.” Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done any engineering. “Unlike an “M.D.” or “certified public accountant,” there is no fixed meaning to the title “engineer,” but many different types of engineers, the judge found.” Haven’t really thought through all the ramifications of this, but it could actually be beneficial for software engineers to have an official accreditation. It could help develop accountability and best engineering practices.
- will4274 8y ago> I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done any engineering I agree, but this is an argument for newspapers, magazines, and websites to make, not for the state licensing board. Regulating the speech of politicians campaiging for office undermines the democratic process, as it allows those in power to control the speech of those with less power trying to unseat them.
- bumby 8y agoI've seen the need for this in software during hiring. Employer states an engineering degree is needed even for CS dominant positions because, unlike accredited engineering programs, there was just too much leeway in CS programs. E.g., one may require four semesters of calculus, another only one resulting in wide ranges of rigor. Instead of inspecting transcripts, HR just specifies an ABET engineering degree. This attitude is changing, especially as more schools get ABET CS programs, but old ways of doing things change slowly.
- SamReidHughes 8y ago> It could help develop accountability and best engineering practices. Have you ever read books about that? There are multiple layers of awful ideas about software engineering, touted as best practice. It's a cesspit of idiocy. Too many morons are going around trying to say things about engineering practices for it to be possible to make a useful accreditation. It would also end up being a negative hiring signal, like existing certifications and Master's degrees.
- seibelj 8y agoI would argue that occupational licensing is extremely overdone, even in the riskier professions like medicine and dentistry. Here is a recent article from the NYT about the horrible situation of cosmetology licensing: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/business/cosmetology-school-debt-iowa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/business/cosmetology-scho... I'm not saying we don't need occupational licensing whatsoever. But there is no reason someone can't learn to drill a cavity in 6 months of training. $400k of dental school debt is not required.
- opportune 8y agoIt’s just job security for the people who have already gone into debt / a way to keep the supply of specialized workers low. For example, the AMA limits the amount of doctors able to graduate from the US so much we are constantly required to allow foreign doctors to immigrate to meet our actual needs And doctors usually work very long hours too, suggesting there is still a shortage even with the immigration. But, I guess this keeps salaries high
- miker64 8y agoI think you underestimate the knowledge and training to do dental work safely.
- seibelj 8y agoMaine allowed a special license for hygienists to do extra procedures, including cavity drilling (if a real dentist is in the building). It is going fine so far. https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-hygienists-may-fill-a-void-but-not-a-cavity/ https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-hy... However, getting the law changed to allow this has been fought tooth-and-nail, so to speak: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-unexpected-political-power-of-dentists/2017/07/01/ee946d56-54f3-11e7-a204-ad706461fa4f_story.html?utm_term=.bf37fdd0b088 https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-unexpected-polit... Like all licensed professionals, dentists are part of a cartel ("guild"). Some guilds are better than others for their members and/or consumers.
- miker64 8y agoYes, an overly broad law about the use of the title "engineer," the outcome of this will be laws updated to use the term "professional engineer" and the scope refocused on commercial context. (as in: You can't claim to be a structural engineer to get a gig...)
- eigenvector 8y agoAs a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advertising their services as an engineer. In every context where the services of a PE / PEng (Canada) are truly required, no one will be relying on that person's email signature or business card, they will be asking for the relevant documents to be signed and sealed. Licensing boards would do well to devote more effort to regulating large engineering firms which often play fast and loose with the rules, hiring cheaper, unlicensed people to do most of their work and then have one or two PEs seal all of it with minimal review.
- sandworm101 8y agoI once worked in the live entertainment industry. We often had engineers sign off on stage/tower structures. When they got the math wrong things fell on heads. Our insurance demanded licensed engineers. Anyone using that term, professing, to be an engineer better be one. This case essentially removes engineer from the list of recognized professions. That club now only belongs to the doctors and lawyers. Even hairdressers cannot call themselves such without state recognition.
- justinpombrio 8y ago> Our insurance demanded licensed engineers. Anyone using that term, professing, to be an engineer better be one. The guy didn't claim he was licensed. All he said was "I'm an engineer". All the court said was "He can say he's an engineer". This doesn't sound very problematic to me. Like, presumably you'd ask where they were licensed, right? You wouldn't just accept anyone who said they were an engineer, and then rely on the state to issue a $500 fine to anyone who dared use the "E" word without being licensed in the US?
- DaiPlusPlus 8y ago
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago> cited the state board’s “history of overzealous enforcement actions.’’ Say what you want about the usual insanity of the law in Texas, but they handle lots of these overzealous professional state agencies in a healthy manner by means of the "Texas Sunset Commission": https://www.sunset.texas.gov https://www.sunset.texas.gov. Basically, every few years state boards come up for review to see if their existence is worth it. For example, a few years ago the state veterinary board was excoriated as part of the sunset review process when the board went after a leader in the animal No Kill movement. It's a good periodic check that these boards don't become the little fiefdoms that they so often turn into.
- selimthegrim 8y agoPlease someone set this up in Louisiana. We’ll even make using turn signals mandatory when changing lanes if that’s part of the deal.
- threatofrain 8y ago> Jarlstrom, who holds a bachelors of science degree in engineering from Sweden, has repeatedly challenged Oregon’s timing of yellow traffic lights as too short. > He was investigated by the Oregon Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying for the “unlicensed practice of engineering,’’ after he sent his traffic light calculations to the state board, and identified himself as an engineer to local media and the “60 Minutes” TV news program, and in discussions with the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying. Mats Jarlstrom was investigating traffic light policies and was fined $500 by the state for unlicensed engineering.
- village-idiot 8y agoSeems like clear cut retaliation.
- rightbyte 8y agoHeh, yeah. It's not like he have made calculation of bridge steel welds or something without proper legal papers. He complained over the yellow light timing ...
- deogeo 8y ago> It's not like he have made calculation of bridge steel welds or something without proper legal papers. Suppose he had. Suppose he found a bridge suspicious, did some calculations, and told a newspaper/transport safety agency about it. Should that be illegal, because the state of Oregon didn't give him permission? Is it okay to very literally fine someone for 'unlicensed use of math'? Thankfully the ruling very strongly implies 'no'. It's important to be precise, or regulation of engineering can become regulation of speech.
- rightbyte 8y agoI agree. I meant a calculations for building a bridge, and having responsibility for it.
- jchw 8y agoI both love and hate this story. Unfairly handing out red light tickets is rotten, but fining the man who pointed it out is beyond rotten. It's corrupt. There's no question Oregon was defending its income with that move. Dirty money. I don't feel like reversing the fine is nearly enough of a response. There was effectively no punishment for issuing that fine. But, I'm still pleased with the outcomes Järlström keeps accomplishing. It may not completely offset the chilling effects caused by the initial transgressions, but hopefully it can inspire others. All in all, it definitely reflects very poorly on the Oregon State government. I hope they're happy with the reputation damage done.
- 3JPLW 8y agoI find the original red-light story that precipitated this fine to be more interesting than the fine/engineer word story. His side of the story is here: http://www.jarlstrom.com/redflex/ http://www.jarlstrom.com/redflex/ . In short, the timings don't account for the time it takes for a car to _clear_ an intersection. His lawsuit against the city's yellow light timings was dismissed because he failed to show standing. It is somewhat interesting that he took the tack of hypothetical damage as a pedestrian instead of a contested red-light ticket. Perhaps the ticket(s) that precipitated the research didn't satisfy the exact conditions of this challenge.
- loeg 8y agoI suspect fining this guy was more retaliatory (i.e., personal grudge) than a real attempt to defend red light ticket income. But I am just speculating and am also pleased with the outcome.
- sneak 8y agoThe state has a monopoly on violence; they do not need to protect their reputation. They’re the only game in town.
- EGreg 8y agoWhy would you want more people to use violence? Mob rule is better?
- xupybd 8y ago>She directed the state to remove the definition of "engineer,'' from its state law and administrative rules, and simply restrict who can consider themselves a “professional engineer,” or a “registered professional engineer.” I think that distinction is important. Here in NZ engineer could mean a trained engineer with a 4 year degree or it could mean a fabricator / fitter turner trained via an apprenticeship. You also have people like my self. I hold an engineering degree but I have not pursued membership in my nation engineering body. So I'm not a “registered professional engineer” as there is no local support for this in the software field I went into. I'd never call my self a registered engineer but I may consider using the term to describe my qualifications.
- pard68 8y agoI work in sysops. My employer won't even consider a new hire without at least two different certificates (not licenses) which use the word "engineer" in them. I know a number of coworkers who refer to themselves as engineers but only hold a certificate to acknowledge this. Others have the term "engineer" in their title at work, and again no license. Glad to see that the English language is being defended and not being used for what is clearly state sanctioned bullying. Maybe I should start using the term engineer...
- peter_d_sherman 8y agoObservation: Freedom of self-description -- is implied by the Constitution's free speech clause, and so long as there is no intent to fraud anyone by doing so, it must be permitted...
- sys_64738 8y agoEngineers stake their professional reputation on their designs being up to the specification required in their field of expertise. Software has all these disclaimers that its "as-is" to protect against being sued when it goes awry. True engineers don't have such protections so certainly in software development the developer should not be called engineer.
- codinger 8y agoAh, the good ole no true engineer fallacy.
- 8bitsrule 8y agoAlways find people amusing who think identity is built around a person currently employed because of their skill-set. I recall talking to a person years ago when I was between jobs as a [job title]. "What do you do?" "Oh, I'm a [job title]." "Oh nice. Where do you [job title] at?" "I'm not [job title]ing anywhere at the moment." "Oooooooh, well! Then you're not a [job title]!" By this logic, you're not a blacksmith if your not pounding out red-hot horseshoes. Or a doctor if, after 20 years in surgery, you've granted yourself a two-year vacation in the Bahamas. In this POV, though, ex-political leaders, ex-military leaders get to keep their titles. Say what? Linkletter was right: people are funny.
- arduanika 8y agoIANAL, but I am a lawyer.
- Entalpi 8y agoI would argue that anyone with an degree in engineering (and has practiced in some capacoty as engineer) is an engineer.
- stevespang 8y agoTexas is next ! Texas bureaucrats have been hasseling software engineers for too long, claiming unless they "pay up" to the state their exorbitant licensing fees, they cannot use the word "engineer" on their business cards or anything business related.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sbuttgereit 8y agoGlad to see the Institute for Justice winning one. They're one of the organizations to whom I contribute cash (including just this morning) and find myself very pleased with their impact.
- Ice_cream_suit 8y agoSurely laws regarding who can call themselves A Federal Judge violate free speech too...
- TheCoelacanth 8y agoNo, because the ruling didn't say that they can't have any regulation of the term "engineer", just that their regulations were too broad. They are allowed to regulate "professional engineer" or regulate using "engineer" in specific commercial contexts, but they can't just prevent someone from calling themself an engineer regardless of context. A law saying that you can't refer to yourself as a "judge" would almost certainly also be unconstitutional, but a law saying that you can't present yourself as a Federal judge is probably specific enough to pass muster.
- ivoras 8y agoThis is all ridiculously country- and culture- specific. For example many places in Europe have adopted what I think is originally a German idea that anything vaguely technical, if done professionally, is engineering. So you have "engineers of chemistry" which is kind of reasonable but also "engineers of mathematics" which seems odd. Here, you can call yourself whatever you like but if the company hiring you requires diplomas or certificates, then you either have them or don't. Because of that, nobody makes a fuss about it.
- rm445 8y ago'Engineer of mathematics' and the like make sense given that academia has been fairly effective in making society believe 'science' means scientific research, rather than all of the scientific pursuits including engineering and manufacturing. (Talking about language here, not state regulation of professions). There are employees at the company I work with great job titles like 'mathematician' and 'physicist'. But if the physicist is applying known principles (obscure ones about photon behaviour, but well-understood principles) to product development rather than blue-sky R&D, what is their actual job? - Given many people would think a physicist is a researcher. There's an argument that the job in question is actually 'physics engineer'.
- ip26 8y agoIs an "engineer of chemistry" a chemist by another name? In the US a "chemical engineer" is an engineer who specializes in the industrial use or production of chemicals. Think, the guy who designs the factory to manufacture a certain chemical. But "engineer of chemistry" doesn't sound like the same thing.
- just_myles 8y agohaha this one tickled me: "What are we going to do about these software guys that call themselves engineers? We gotta take down Dilbert!"