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> media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. Can you expand on 'this negative minority' ? B

> media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. Can you expand on 'this negative minority' ? Because I think there are a lot more poor people than 'upper middle class' people in this country. > I have little sympathy for people who consistently plan poorly and make bad decisions Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. To possess a certain level of self control, is to be lucky in its own right. Turns out its generally dictated by the Pre Frontal Cortex. And when that gets damaged (whether via head injury, lead poisoning as a child, malnourishment, any number of reasons), people lose self control: https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/71/6/720 https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/71/6/720

fromthestart 8y ago
>Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. Exhibit B. Personal responsibility is increasingly fading from the collective American vocabulary, and articles like these, which normalize nonsensical, narcicisstic decisions, like throwing away a decade pursuing 3 low demand liberal arts degrees, make the media complicit. Self control absolutely is a moral, righteous trait, particularly because those without it lower the standards of living for those around them. Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But in the U.S. a sizable minority, if not a majority, expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree.
- vailprogrammer 8y ago
  You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues? Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person? > Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But what about all of the social safety nets in Europe? Seems like they take care of people in hard times, rather than tell them to just develop more discipline...? >expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree. Would you agree that hindsight is 20/20? How were these people supposed to know that they won't make money with their graduate degrees, years ago? They are in a tough spot because of bad choices made in the past, and so they deserve no sympathy now? They should be homeless? Your parents, who fought their way to upper middle class as immigrants, what percent of your college did they pay for?
  - fromthestart 8y ago
    >You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues? You know nothing of my psychology or my personal struggles. It is infuriating to hear people tell me how easy I had it simply because now my parents are well off. Kindly take your classist prejudice elsewhere. My parents were lower middle class until about the time I went off to college. For which I took out student loans. Which I am not struggling to pay back because I chose a practical degree and a reasonable city to live in. Like anyone else could have done with due dilligence of researching salaries and demand for various degrees, rather than pursuing whatever they were interested in without consideration of practicality. >Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person? Why do you stretch so thinly to paint me as though I am blind with privilege? Mental illness is as irrelevant to this discussion as my personal experiences; unless you want to tell me that >4/10 Americans are mentally ill to the point that they cannot plan and work for stable futures. You seem totally to deny the roles that personal responsibility and self discipline play in societal outcomes. Look. The point is that when you handwave away every negative outcome with some external cause, and refuse to admit that very often people make bad choices because of poor personality traits, and not mental illness, you do bad to both yourself and society, because you ignore the option of self improvement. And when a large enough proportion of the populace is incompetent because they were taught to blame everything but themselves, your social safety nets will only hasten the erosion of your society as fewer and fewer are capable of carrying the rest. This isn't about being heartless. This is a question of practicality.
    - refurb 8y ago
      I’ve noticed this on HN has well. In response to the perceived “it’s all your fault” Republican message, a lot of HN has swung to the opposite side with “none of this is your fault!”. Spent all your money on junk? Victim of advertisers. Lost your money in investments? Victim of big banks. Spent your money on booze? Victim of genetics.
    - vailprogrammer 8y ago
      You're trying to say that both of your parents being college educated didn't provide you with any kind of advantage over someone born into poverty with uneducated parents? "Classist prejudice" is false?? Wealthier people, don't have an easier time growing up? Where is the disconnect there? We're getting off track here. Upthread, you mentioned this negative minority who are unlucky and downtrodden. I countered that the majority of people in America are poor. I think that's something we could agree on? Some were unlucky, some were born into shitty situations, some made bad decisions. I want to know what you think all of those people should do to improve their situations? All 3 groups I mentioned. Just develop better self discipline and work harder? Genuinely curious. My contention is that the system is stacked against them, capitalism has swung too far in favor of Owners of Capital.
- mac01021 8y ago
  Not disagreeing with anything about your main point but > Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline to which cultures are you referring?
  - e1g 8y ago
    Not OP, but also ex-Soviet: Russia is one example. Ruskis have been robbed blind by feudalism, communism, and lately capitalism - from both public and private sector - for over 200 years. This created a deep (almost traumatic) generational mistrust of any system or organized body. Since I was a toddler I was told that everything is my personal responsibility and to never expect external support. I live in NYC now and what passes for “self reliance” or “discipline” here is sweet. It is the philosophical opposite of “safe spaces” that would make Jordan Peterson shudder, but it does create survivors. It’s an unhealthy environment that breeds mistrust and misery, and I would never want my kids to grow up in such Ayn Rand’esque culture.

fromthestart 8y ago

>Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. Exhibit B. Personal responsibility is increasingly fading from the collective American vocabulary, and articles like these, which normalize nonsensical, narcicisstic decisions, like throwing away a decade pursuing 3 low demand liberal arts degrees, make the media complicit. Self control absolutely is a moral, righteous trait, particularly because those without it lower the standards of living for those around them. Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But in the U.S. a sizable minority, if not a majority, expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree.

vailprogrammer 8y ago
You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues? Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person? > Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But what about all of the social safety nets in Europe? Seems like they take care of people in hard times, rather than tell them to just develop more discipline...? >expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree. Would you agree that hindsight is 20/20? How were these people supposed to know that they won't make money with their graduate degrees, years ago? They are in a tough spot because of bad choices made in the past, and so they deserve no sympathy now? They should be homeless? Your parents, who fought their way to upper middle class as immigrants, what percent of your college did they pay for?
- fromthestart 8y ago
  >You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues? You know nothing of my psychology or my personal struggles. It is infuriating to hear people tell me how easy I had it simply because now my parents are well off. Kindly take your classist prejudice elsewhere. My parents were lower middle class until about the time I went off to college. For which I took out student loans. Which I am not struggling to pay back because I chose a practical degree and a reasonable city to live in. Like anyone else could have done with due dilligence of researching salaries and demand for various degrees, rather than pursuing whatever they were interested in without consideration of practicality. >Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person? Why do you stretch so thinly to paint me as though I am blind with privilege? Mental illness is as irrelevant to this discussion as my personal experiences; unless you want to tell me that >4/10 Americans are mentally ill to the point that they cannot plan and work for stable futures. You seem totally to deny the roles that personal responsibility and self discipline play in societal outcomes. Look. The point is that when you handwave away every negative outcome with some external cause, and refuse to admit that very often people make bad choices because of poor personality traits, and not mental illness, you do bad to both yourself and society, because you ignore the option of self improvement. And when a large enough proportion of the populace is incompetent because they were taught to blame everything but themselves, your social safety nets will only hasten the erosion of your society as fewer and fewer are capable of carrying the rest. This isn't about being heartless. This is a question of practicality.
  - refurb 8y ago
    I’ve noticed this on HN has well. In response to the perceived “it’s all your fault” Republican message, a lot of HN has swung to the opposite side with “none of this is your fault!”. Spent all your money on junk? Victim of advertisers. Lost your money in investments? Victim of big banks. Spent your money on booze? Victim of genetics.
  - vailprogrammer 8y ago
    You're trying to say that both of your parents being college educated didn't provide you with any kind of advantage over someone born into poverty with uneducated parents? "Classist prejudice" is false?? Wealthier people, don't have an easier time growing up? Where is the disconnect there? We're getting off track here. Upthread, you mentioned this negative minority who are unlucky and downtrodden. I countered that the majority of people in America are poor. I think that's something we could agree on? Some were unlucky, some were born into shitty situations, some made bad decisions. I want to know what you think all of those people should do to improve their situations? All 3 groups I mentioned. Just develop better self discipline and work harder? Genuinely curious. My contention is that the system is stacked against them, capitalism has swung too far in favor of Owners of Capital.
mac01021 8y ago
Not disagreeing with anything about your main point but > Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline to which cultures are you referring?
- e1g 8y ago
  Not OP, but also ex-Soviet: Russia is one example. Ruskis have been robbed blind by feudalism, communism, and lately capitalism - from both public and private sector - for over 200 years. This created a deep (almost traumatic) generational mistrust of any system or organized body. Since I was a toddler I was told that everything is my personal responsibility and to never expect external support. I live in NYC now and what passes for “self reliance” or “discipline” here is sweet. It is the philosophical opposite of “safe spaces” that would make Jordan Peterson shudder, but it does create survivors. It’s an unhealthy environment that breeds mistrust and misery, and I would never want my kids to grow up in such Ayn Rand’esque culture.