3 ms·

> sob stories about people who spent half their lives pursuing 3 uneconomical degrees, had 3 more kids than they could afford, in cities with some of the highes

> sob stories about people who spent half their lives pursuing 3 uneconomical degrees, had 3 more kids than they could afford, in cities with some of the highest costs of living in the world, and now complain that they're living paycheck to paycheck. So the person who .... - never attended any sort of college, but did graduate high school - is single and childless, in fact have no family at all as their parents died poor and young - is living paycheck to paycheck, whether in a city or rural area ...just doesn't exist? And if they do exist, please enlighten me on what steps they should take to correct their situation? Just curious, but are your parents college educated?

fromthestart 8y ago
There will always be those who are unlucky and downtrodden. The point though is that media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. My parents are first generation immigrants who fled the Soviet Bloc and built their lives here by living within their means, and making practical decisions, like getting degrees with some probability of return on investment. They came here with nothing and it took them 30 years to find their way into the upper middle class. I have little sympathy for people who consistently plan poorly and make bad decisions by placing immediate satisfaction over long term financial security.
- vailprogrammer 8y ago
  > media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. Can you expand on 'this negative minority' ? Because I think there are a lot more poor people than 'upper middle class' people in this country. > I have little sympathy for people who consistently plan poorly and make bad decisions Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. To possess a certain level of self control, is to be lucky in its own right. Turns out its generally dictated by the Pre Frontal Cortex. And when that gets damaged (whether via head injury, lead poisoning as a child, malnourishment, any number of reasons), people lose self control: https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/71/6/720 https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/71/6/720
  - fromthestart 8y ago
    >Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. Exhibit B. Personal responsibility is increasingly fading from the collective American vocabulary, and articles like these, which normalize nonsensical, narcicisstic decisions, like throwing away a decade pursuing 3 low demand liberal arts degrees, make the media complicit. Self control absolutely is a moral, righteous trait, particularly because those without it lower the standards of living for those around them. Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But in the U.S. a sizable minority, if not a majority, expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree.
    - vailprogrammer 8y ago
      You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues? Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person? > Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But what about all of the social safety nets in Europe? Seems like they take care of people in hard times, rather than tell them to just develop more discipline...? >expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree. Would you agree that hindsight is 20/20? How were these people supposed to know that they won't make money with their graduate degrees, years ago? They are in a tough spot because of bad choices made in the past, and so they deserve no sympathy now? They should be homeless? Your parents, who fought their way to upper middle class as immigrants, what percent of your college did they pay for?
      - fromthestart 8y ago
        >You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues? You know nothing of my psychology or my personal struggles. It is infuriating to hear people tell me how easy I had it simply because now my parents are well off. Kindly take your classist prejudice elsewhere. My parents were lower middle class until about the time I went off to college. For which I took out student loans. Which I am not struggling to pay back because I chose a practical degree and a reasonable city to live in. Like anyone else could have done with due dilligence of researching salaries and demand for various degrees, rather than pursuing whatever they were interested in without consideration of practicality. >Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person? Why do you stretch so thinly to paint me as though I am blind with privilege? Mental illness is as irrelevant to this discussion as my personal experiences; unless you want to tell me that >4/10 Americans are mentally ill to the point that they cannot plan and work for stable futures. You seem totally to deny the roles that personal responsibility and self discipline play in societal outcomes. Look. The point is that when you handwave away every negative outcome with some external cause, and refuse to admit that very often people make bad choices because of poor personality traits, and not mental illness, you do bad to both yourself and society, because you ignore the option of self improvement. And when a large enough proportion of the populace is incompetent because they were taught to blame everything but themselves, your social safety nets will only hasten the erosion of your society as fewer and fewer are capable of carrying the rest. This isn't about being heartless. This is a question of practicality.

fromthestart 8y ago

There will always be those who are unlucky and downtrodden. The point though is that media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. My parents are first generation immigrants who fled the Soviet Bloc and built their lives here by living within their means, and making practical decisions, like getting degrees with some probability of return on investment. They came here with nothing and it took them 30 years to find their way into the upper middle class. I have little sympathy for people who consistently plan poorly and make bad decisions by placing immediate satisfaction over long term financial security.

vailprogrammer 8y ago
> media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. Can you expand on 'this negative minority' ? Because I think there are a lot more poor people than 'upper middle class' people in this country. > I have little sympathy for people who consistently plan poorly and make bad decisions Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. To possess a certain level of self control, is to be lucky in its own right. Turns out its generally dictated by the Pre Frontal Cortex. And when that gets damaged (whether via head injury, lead poisoning as a child, malnourishment, any number of reasons), people lose self control: https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/71/6/720 https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/71/6/720
- fromthestart 8y ago
  >Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. Exhibit B. Personal responsibility is increasingly fading from the collective American vocabulary, and articles like these, which normalize nonsensical, narcicisstic decisions, like throwing away a decade pursuing 3 low demand liberal arts degrees, make the media complicit. Self control absolutely is a moral, righteous trait, particularly because those without it lower the standards of living for those around them. Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But in the U.S. a sizable minority, if not a majority, expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree.
  - vailprogrammer 8y ago
    You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues? Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person? > Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But what about all of the social safety nets in Europe? Seems like they take care of people in hard times, rather than tell them to just develop more discipline...? >expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree. Would you agree that hindsight is 20/20? How were these people supposed to know that they won't make money with their graduate degrees, years ago? They are in a tough spot because of bad choices made in the past, and so they deserve no sympathy now? They should be homeless? Your parents, who fought their way to upper middle class as immigrants, what percent of your college did they pay for?
    - fromthestart 8y ago
      >You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues? You know nothing of my psychology or my personal struggles. It is infuriating to hear people tell me how easy I had it simply because now my parents are well off. Kindly take your classist prejudice elsewhere. My parents were lower middle class until about the time I went off to college. For which I took out student loans. Which I am not struggling to pay back because I chose a practical degree and a reasonable city to live in. Like anyone else could have done with due dilligence of researching salaries and demand for various degrees, rather than pursuing whatever they were interested in without consideration of practicality. >Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person? Why do you stretch so thinly to paint me as though I am blind with privilege? Mental illness is as irrelevant to this discussion as my personal experiences; unless you want to tell me that >4/10 Americans are mentally ill to the point that they cannot plan and work for stable futures. You seem totally to deny the roles that personal responsibility and self discipline play in societal outcomes. Look. The point is that when you handwave away every negative outcome with some external cause, and refuse to admit that very often people make bad choices because of poor personality traits, and not mental illness, you do bad to both yourself and society, because you ignore the option of self improvement. And when a large enough proportion of the populace is incompetent because they were taught to blame everything but themselves, your social safety nets will only hasten the erosion of your society as fewer and fewer are capable of carrying the rest. This isn't about being heartless. This is a question of practicality.