7 ms·

This sounds like you're having the wrong conversations. With all your experience, why are you still going into companies through the front door? Where's your ne

by Swizec 8y ago

This sounds like you're having the wrong conversations. With all your experience, why are you still going into companies through the front door? Where's your network? Fundamentally: Why are you having the "Can you code your way out of a wet paper bag" conversation instead of the "How much value can you add to this company" conversation? Perhaps my experience as a consultant/freelancer is breaking my perspective. It's been several years since I last had a coding interview as an applicant.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
You still have to go through a standard interview loop at Google/Facebook/Netflix/etc... even if you get in via a recommendation. The recommendation (and your cv) helps you in getting a serious phone screen and in getting a good choice of the team you want to join, but isn’t considered very much during the interview itself.
wheaties 8y ago
You shouldn't have to only be able to go through your network to get a job. We should judge based upon the same criteria every other damned job judges ...how well they did their last job.
- chrisweekly 8y ago
  > "how well they did their last job" Right.... so if you have a mismatched role, that's it, you're done for, huh? Please.
khazhoux 8y ago
If you apply for a full-time software engineering position at a large company today, you will be run through the all-day series-of-hourlong-interviews, even if you are a referral. It is possible for the hiring manager to work closely with recruiter and recruiting coordinator to craft a more customized interview process, but that's rare (and, impossible at a place like Google, which decentralizes hiring). The value of network is the candidate wasn't subjected to the usual resume review weeding-out, but their info went straight to one or more hiring managers for consideration.
- jasonkester 8y ago
  You use the term "apply for a job", which might explain the disconnect. The post you reply to isn't about applying for jobs. You don't want to "apply" for things. You want your google VP to be having a beer with your ex-boss and worrying that his pet project was going to fail because they just can't find a guy who can really $X. But your ex boss knows a guy who absoulutely can $X, and just finished $X'ing his company back from the brink of disaster. Lets give him a call to see if he's available. HR will be told to give that guy an offer and, optionally, collect a resume to keep on file. That's what we're talking about here, and it's where you want to get yourself if you want to build a career as an individual contributor.
  - democracy 8y ago
    We need more stories like this for the New Years eve.
  - jghn 8y ago
    Since you mention Google, my understanding is that you still go through the standard hiring process
    - jasonkester 8y ago
      Again, always? If they buy the company that you built specifically to get access to you, do you think you'll still end up getting screened out by some junior dev on a whiteboard? All policies have exceptions. Your goal is to be exceptional.
      - twblalock 8y ago
        Yes, always. It is company policy. Google takes its standardized interview process more seriously than any other company I've heard of, except maybe Palantir.
        josephcooney 8y ago
jasonkester 8y ago
Well said. It occurs to me that my last job interview that involved convincing the other party that I was a good developer was back in 1999 when I had just a few years of experience. Since then every gig has come via an introduction by a former boss or co-worker, or by introducing myself to somebody with hiring authority and using a pile of impressive artifacts to skip the "can this guy do the work" questions. The first several years of your career should be getting yourself into a position where nobody would ever dare ask you to sort things on a whiteboard.
- democracy 8y ago
  You should also be young, healthy and happy - noone wants the opposite, right?
- hermitdev 8y ago
  Back in 2004, I interviewed for a FTE position in finance - was my first interview for a full time role post college. I was a referral from a close friend and classmate. They sent me through the ringer. Had to take brainbench tests for C++ and C# (position was for C++, but I'd been working in C# and JS for the prior 2-3 years). IIRC, only got like a 65 percentile in C++, but over 95 in C#. Also had to go through an hour plus phone screen, then a day and a half on site. Got the job, but damned if it wasn't a long process. Lots of whiteboard and verbal questions, was never put in front of a computer except for the brainbench tests ar home.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  Congratulations, you've never wanted to work for a large company. Perhaps your advice isn't relevant to those who do.
izacus 8y ago
> Fundamentally: Why are you having the "Can you code your way out of a wet paper bag" conversation instead of the "How much value can you add to this company" conversation? Because people lie. It's that simple. Referrals lie, CVs lie, friends lie to get friends in a position. Do understand that there's a fundamentally different set of problem a 40.000 FTE company has to deal with in comparison to a 30 person startup. Also is doing a full day interview really such a horrible sacrifice for most paid jobs in the world? Professions like laywers and doctors need to go through significantly longer hazing rituals to get to FAANG income... is a month of study to be essentially among the most paid people in the world REALLY such a horrible thing?
- viraptor 8y ago
  > Professions like laywers and doctors need to go through significantly longer hazing rituals At least for doctors this isn't universally true. There's continuing education/certification, (which you have to do every $period) there's public reputation, there's lots of networking. From what I've seen the interviews take few hours in one day and people usually already know each other.
  - izacus 8y ago
    Yes, but before that you need years of low-paid jobs and networking to come close to well paid positions. Applying at FAANG requires significantly less.
  - vkou 8y ago
    The hazing the doctors go through is during residency, where they spend years, working like horses, for no money. I'd much rather deal with whiteboard interview bullshit a few times in my life, then go through residency in the medical field.
    - Pokepokalypse 8y ago
      I'd honestly rather have the "bulletproof tenure" that doctors then acquire after they get through the hazing. Getting laid off every time a spreadsheet jockey in accounting makes a bad projection, is pretty disruptive. (as are the times when a competitor buys your employer just to shut them down, and etc: plenty of scenarios where you lose a job due to no fault of your own are rather the rule than the exception) - Most competent engineers can always get another job. But in that process, you end up with a different commute, or even having to relocate, deal with setbacks in financial plans, and etc. The instability some of us experience is kind of not worth the other perks. And after 20+ years, it's kind of annoying to have to apply as if I'm fresh out of school when I have a solid work record on my resume, verifiable by contacting my former co-workers and managers I've provide as references.

by Swizec 8y ago

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

You still have to go through a standard interview loop at Google/Facebook/Netflix/etc... even if you get in via a recommendation. The recommendation (and your cv) helps you in getting a serious phone screen and in getting a good choice of the team you want to join, but isn’t considered very much during the interview itself.

wheaties 8y ago

You shouldn't have to only be able to go through your network to get a job. We should judge based upon the same criteria every other damned job judges ...how well they did their last job.

chrisweekly 8y ago
> "how well they did their last job" Right.... so if you have a mismatched role, that's it, you're done for, huh? Please.

khazhoux 8y ago

If you apply for a full-time software engineering position at a large company today, you will be run through the all-day series-of-hourlong-interviews, even if you are a referral. It is possible for the hiring manager to work closely with recruiter and recruiting coordinator to craft a more customized interview process, but that's rare (and, impossible at a place like Google, which decentralizes hiring). The value of network is the candidate wasn't subjected to the usual resume review weeding-out, but their info went straight to one or more hiring managers for consideration.

jasonkester 8y ago
You use the term "apply for a job", which might explain the disconnect. The post you reply to isn't about applying for jobs. You don't want to "apply" for things. You want your google VP to be having a beer with your ex-boss and worrying that his pet project was going to fail because they just can't find a guy who can really $X. But your ex boss knows a guy who absoulutely can $X, and just finished $X'ing his company back from the brink of disaster. Lets give him a call to see if he's available. HR will be told to give that guy an offer and, optionally, collect a resume to keep on file. That's what we're talking about here, and it's where you want to get yourself if you want to build a career as an individual contributor.
- democracy 8y ago
  We need more stories like this for the New Years eve.
- jghn 8y ago
  Since you mention Google, my understanding is that you still go through the standard hiring process
  - jasonkester 8y ago
    Again, always? If they buy the company that you built specifically to get access to you, do you think you'll still end up getting screened out by some junior dev on a whiteboard? All policies have exceptions. Your goal is to be exceptional.
    - twblalock 8y ago
      Yes, always. It is company policy. Google takes its standardized interview process more seriously than any other company I've heard of, except maybe Palantir.
      - josephcooney 8y ago

jasonkester 8y ago

Well said. It occurs to me that my last job interview that involved convincing the other party that I was a good developer was back in 1999 when I had just a few years of experience. Since then every gig has come via an introduction by a former boss or co-worker, or by introducing myself to somebody with hiring authority and using a pile of impressive artifacts to skip the "can this guy do the work" questions. The first several years of your career should be getting yourself into a position where nobody would ever dare ask you to sort things on a whiteboard.

democracy 8y ago
You should also be young, healthy and happy - noone wants the opposite, right?
hermitdev 8y ago
Back in 2004, I interviewed for a FTE position in finance - was my first interview for a full time role post college. I was a referral from a close friend and classmate. They sent me through the ringer. Had to take brainbench tests for C++ and C# (position was for C++, but I'd been working in C# and JS for the prior 2-3 years). IIRC, only got like a 65 percentile in C++, but over 95 in C#. Also had to go through an hour plus phone screen, then a day and a half on site. Got the job, but damned if it wasn't a long process. Lots of whiteboard and verbal questions, was never put in front of a computer except for the brainbench tests ar home.
lazyasciiart 8y ago
Congratulations, you've never wanted to work for a large company. Perhaps your advice isn't relevant to those who do.

izacus 8y ago

> Fundamentally: Why are you having the "Can you code your way out of a wet paper bag" conversation instead of the "How much value can you add to this company" conversation? Because people lie. It's that simple. Referrals lie, CVs lie, friends lie to get friends in a position. Do understand that there's a fundamentally different set of problem a 40.000 FTE company has to deal with in comparison to a 30 person startup. Also is doing a full day interview really such a horrible sacrifice for most paid jobs in the world? Professions like laywers and doctors need to go through significantly longer hazing rituals to get to FAANG income... is a month of study to be essentially among the most paid people in the world REALLY such a horrible thing?

viraptor 8y ago
> Professions like laywers and doctors need to go through significantly longer hazing rituals At least for doctors this isn't universally true. There's continuing education/certification, (which you have to do every $period) there's public reputation, there's lots of networking. From what I've seen the interviews take few hours in one day and people usually already know each other.
- izacus 8y ago
  Yes, but before that you need years of low-paid jobs and networking to come close to well paid positions. Applying at FAANG requires significantly less.
- vkou 8y ago
  The hazing the doctors go through is during residency, where they spend years, working like horses, for no money. I'd much rather deal with whiteboard interview bullshit a few times in my life, then go through residency in the medical field.
  - Pokepokalypse 8y ago
    I'd honestly rather have the "bulletproof tenure" that doctors then acquire after they get through the hazing. Getting laid off every time a spreadsheet jockey in accounting makes a bad projection, is pretty disruptive. (as are the times when a competitor buys your employer just to shut them down, and etc: plenty of scenarios where you lose a job due to no fault of your own are rather the rule than the exception) - Most competent engineers can always get another job. But in that process, you end up with a different commute, or even having to relocate, deal with setbacks in financial plans, and etc. The instability some of us experience is kind of not worth the other perks. And after 20+ years, it's kind of annoying to have to apply as if I'm fresh out of school when I have a solid work record on my resume, verifiable by contacting my former co-workers and managers I've provide as references.