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The problem is that C++ is already too much bloated (in its complex rules and the standard library) and some people (primarily gamedev) would want things more t

The problem is that C++ is already too much bloated (in its complex rules and the standard library) and some people (primarily gamedev) would want things more to be removed, changed, and simplified rather than continuously added to the pile. But the philosophy of C++ standards development was always about adding new things while maintaining backward compatibility. So even if the gamedev people ask the committee to change its philosophy and remove the bloat, I feel that it would only result in tribal wars between developers and not constructive change. So right now there are two kinds of gamedev: the ones who would suck it up and just use C++ (although not the modern one), or the ones who move to greener pastures. I've heard some gamedev people are moving to Rust (although having the potential to rival C++ in complexity, is nicer because of its fresher base). And Jonathan Blow is currently creating Jai, so maybe that could be a hope of light for gamedev people...

stinos 8y ago
So right now there are two kinds of gamedev: the ones who would suck it up and just use C++ (although not the modern one) Why can't there be a third kind: the ones who suck it up and just use C++ including modern features? (honest question: I don't know anything at all about 'gamedev')
- lasagnaphil 8y ago
  Using modern C++ with STL in gamedev is quite difficult because it results in atrocious compile times and slow debug build performance (For making a game, iteration speed and debuggability can be pretty important.) Also if you want to develop for consoles there are some limitations: most notably you are forbidden to use exceptions, and the platform's compiler usually doesn't even support the latest C++ standard... That said, I think a third kind might also exist, although rare for AAA studios and more common with mid-size/indie game developers...
  - Negitivefrags 8y ago
    The compiler for Xbox one is MSVC which supports modern c++ quite quickly, and the compiler for PS4 is based on Clang which also supports modern c++ very quickly. Exceptions are supported and we use them for any non-gameplay code paths. That is to say, you can and should use exceptions for all loading/initialisation paths unless they are during actual gameplay. This ends up feeling quite natural as that is mostly what exceptions are good for, and honestly, they would practically never fire in a non-development scenario because they are almost always some kind of error in data files.
- tdsamardzhiev 8y ago
  This is what probably 95% of us do. Don't like a C++ feature, don't use it. You can have a better C than C (at least for gamedev needs), or the bells and whistles from the functional languages. Yeah, some of them are ugly, but to be honest, after the first 5-6 times I see them, I no longer care. Jon Blow says a language with less friction would make him much more productive. Let me tell you -- rockstar programmers at our company have tried that again, and again, and again. I spent the last 2 months trying to purge one such attempt from the codebase, because it ended up introducing all kinds of nasty bugs and unexpected limitations. I still occasionally binge Jai videos and hope Jon proves my scepticism misplaced though :)
hellofunk 8y ago
People have been talking about Jai for years. It’s always something everyone is looking forward to, but is anything actually happening with it?
- steveklabnik 8y ago
  There's been a pretty significant amount of progress, but it's all private, except for when Jon makes a video. So in some sense yes, but not anything that you can really try, yet.
jokoon 8y ago
Maintaining backward compatibility is very important because C++ is used in many places for software that have very high development costs, since generally, C++ code that is written, doesn't get written to be thrown away, like I'm sure it's the case for other languages. Like it or not, C++ is much harder to write than other languages, so of course applications in php or js, since they are more easily written, can be tossed away since they're cheaper to write. Breaking C++ backward compatibility would induce an immense cost on the industry. New languages don't have that problem, obviously, and it's hard to see if they would have that problem if they would have the level of adoption of C++. Not to mention that even if it's decided to break backward compatibility, it might be decided to do it not once, but several times, and it would further induce more costs. C++ is also one of those languages that is used by many big companies, because it's actually well standardized (how many languages are that well standardized, and used for sensitive software, like C++ is). You don't have that many languages like this one. Like always, "there are languages people complain about, and languages nobody uses". Although I agree that things should be removed, but I honestly am not expert enough to understand which and why. Also those companies are still able to use their own compilers if they wish, and break compatibility if they want to.

stinos 8y ago

So right now there are two kinds of gamedev: the ones who would suck it up and just use C++ (although not the modern one) Why can't there be a third kind: the ones who suck it up and just use C++ including modern features? (honest question: I don't know anything at all about 'gamedev')

lasagnaphil 8y ago
Using modern C++ with STL in gamedev is quite difficult because it results in atrocious compile times and slow debug build performance (For making a game, iteration speed and debuggability can be pretty important.) Also if you want to develop for consoles there are some limitations: most notably you are forbidden to use exceptions, and the platform's compiler usually doesn't even support the latest C++ standard... That said, I think a third kind might also exist, although rare for AAA studios and more common with mid-size/indie game developers...
- Negitivefrags 8y ago
  The compiler for Xbox one is MSVC which supports modern c++ quite quickly, and the compiler for PS4 is based on Clang which also supports modern c++ very quickly. Exceptions are supported and we use them for any non-gameplay code paths. That is to say, you can and should use exceptions for all loading/initialisation paths unless they are during actual gameplay. This ends up feeling quite natural as that is mostly what exceptions are good for, and honestly, they would practically never fire in a non-development scenario because they are almost always some kind of error in data files.
tdsamardzhiev 8y ago
This is what probably 95% of us do. Don't like a C++ feature, don't use it. You can have a better C than C (at least for gamedev needs), or the bells and whistles from the functional languages. Yeah, some of them are ugly, but to be honest, after the first 5-6 times I see them, I no longer care. Jon Blow says a language with less friction would make him much more productive. Let me tell you -- rockstar programmers at our company have tried that again, and again, and again. I spent the last 2 months trying to purge one such attempt from the codebase, because it ended up introducing all kinds of nasty bugs and unexpected limitations. I still occasionally binge Jai videos and hope Jon proves my scepticism misplaced though :)

hellofunk 8y ago

People have been talking about Jai for years. It’s always something everyone is looking forward to, but is anything actually happening with it?

steveklabnik 8y ago
There's been a pretty significant amount of progress, but it's all private, except for when Jon makes a video. So in some sense yes, but not anything that you can really try, yet.

jokoon 8y ago

Maintaining backward compatibility is very important because C++ is used in many places for software that have very high development costs, since generally, C++ code that is written, doesn't get written to be thrown away, like I'm sure it's the case for other languages. Like it or not, C++ is much harder to write than other languages, so of course applications in php or js, since they are more easily written, can be tossed away since they're cheaper to write. Breaking C++ backward compatibility would induce an immense cost on the industry. New languages don't have that problem, obviously, and it's hard to see if they would have that problem if they would have the level of adoption of C++. Not to mention that even if it's decided to break backward compatibility, it might be decided to do it not once, but several times, and it would further induce more costs. C++ is also one of those languages that is used by many big companies, because it's actually well standardized (how many languages are that well standardized, and used for sensitive software, like C++ is). You don't have that many languages like this one. Like always, "there are languages people complain about, and languages nobody uses". Although I agree that things should be removed, but I honestly am not expert enough to understand which and why. Also those companies are still able to use their own compilers if they wish, and break compatibility if they want to.