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I'm always wondering - how can people that are determined enough to access the dark web and buy crypto, and willing to instigate a murder, fall for such obvious

I'm always wondering - how can people that are determined enough to access the dark web and buy crypto, and willing to instigate a murder, fall for such obvious scams? Do they really think the mafia hosts front sites for anyone to browse and order through? What, do they think they give discounts and fidelity cards as well?

simion314 8y ago
There is also the risk that all is a trap and you incriminate yourself, even if you try to be anonymous there is a risk to make a mistake and leave a trace.
- elliekelly 8y ago
  This is what's so mind boggling to me. Even if the criminal never provides their name or any identifying information they have to provide the name of their target. I'd imagine if the police told a victim someone tried to put a hit on them the victim would probably have a pretty good idea of the criminal's identity for the police to then investigate.
deleted 8y ago
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jpatokal 8y ago
Hitmen are an actual thing that exists, it's not crazy to expect them to be available for hire via the dark web. In terms of legality and the consequences of being caught, ordering a hit on someone is not that different from ordering a kilo of heroin, and the dark web facilitates that pretty well. (Morality is, of course, another matter.)
- simion314 8y ago
  What happens if you buy something from the dark web and you receive nothing or some garbage, there is always a large risk of being scammed, some people have too much bitcoins and could afford losing some.
  - bufferoverflow 8y ago
    That's what escrows and reviews are for.
    - simion314 8y ago
      How can I trust the reviews and the escrows, explain it to me as you would explain someone that is not technical (so no crypto terms if possible). I mean we have fake reviews on Amazon and other sites. I assume you would buy something small, see if all is fine, then buy something more expensive wait and see how things work out, but for something very expensive how will it work, how is the mediation happening if I don't like what I receive or I am evil and report that I do not receive what I asked for?
      - SCHiM 8y ago
        Surprisingly enough, dark market sellers have excellent customer service. Since the market is completely transparent for a seller. On a number of dark markets both a seller and a buyer have a reputation that is tracked by the market. If a seller sees that you've bought before and this is the first time you ask for a refund they'll send you your order again. Same with the reviews, a seller that has been around for a few years on a market, has good reviews, is most likely not a scammer. If they were they would be banned from the (reputable) dark market(s).
        makomk 8y ago
        The fact that users' reputations are visible apparently lead to a widespread swindle called "selective scamming": sellers would ship as normal to buyers with an established reputation, but just outright rip off new users knowing that the buyer would be assumed to be the scammer.
        simion314 8y ago
        But as a buyer to build a reputation I need to buy multiple things , this means I need to buy drugs from X, a gun from Y, some forbidden magazines from Z, my anonymity drops with each purchase. If I would do heavy illegal things I would not reuse same identity. I doubt that the mafia on the dark web have real reviews and fair escrows.
- pjc50 8y ago
  They're extremely rare in the real Western world, though. And even when they do operate, it's on a connections basis. Certainly compared to how appallingly routine domestic violence is, and how long a red-flagged situation can be left alone by law enforcement. (& hitmen-for-hire is so much rarer than drugs trading that reviews won't work, and escrow is inconcievable)
- yawaworhtttt 8y ago
  Hitmen don't actually make their service readily available* like a pizza restaurant's website, and the ones who do quickly get caught - natural selection if you will. I haven't ever heard of a case of someone getting targeted by an online hit ordered through one of those websites, which you'd expect to if even a single one of them were actually legit. Which makes sense from an economic point of view - there's much more incentive running a (relatively inoffensive) scam and making boatloads of money, rather than risking lifetime jail and committing atrocities to make the same amount of money. As for ordering drugs, the legal consequences vary a lot depending on the country's jurisdiction. There's also such a thing as a priority list in law enforcement, and they presumably care a lot more about murders than drug use, so one will draw much more attention than the other. *Yes, readily available. There's nothing "dark" about a website that can only being accessible through special software, it's been a thing since the days of Usenet and BBS.
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    Online drug dealers are similarly incentivized to sell oregano and baking soda, yet apparently there are plenty of real drugs being transacted as well, including quantities well beyond personal use. And it does depend on the jurisdiction: I'd wager that in (say) the Philippines and some parts of Central America a kilo of heroin would draw more police attention than a murder, unless the victim is well connected. And to be clear, I'm not saying murder for hire on the Internet is a thing; I'm just mildly surprised nobody seems to have done it yet, especially now that cryptocurrencies have pretty much solved the largest problem of how to get paid.
    - lordnacho 8y ago
      There's probably a lot of people who think drugs ought to be legal, and that they're only avoiding an unreasonable law when they sell you drugs. There's probably a lot fewer people who think that about the hitman business.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - 8y ago
- pmart123 8y ago
  I'm sure there is a crazy world of high-end assassins given the incidents involving Jamal Khashoggi, Viktor Yushchenko, Alexander Litvinenko, etc. But from a business standpoint and morality aside, the "every person" assassin almost seems as bad of a business model as the one high school kid who sells fake ids. You have a bunch of one time customers, extremely high legal risks versus the financial payoff, and a high likelihood of eventually getting caught. With drugs, you have addicted, and therefore, repeat customers.
  - Moodles 8y ago
    Indeed, I would suspect that real hitmen usually aren’t full time hitmen as an occupation. In the case of the highend examples you mention, they’re probably ex special forces or spies for that country that usually don’t get asked to do that, but do some other jobs for their paymasters. And most “hitmen” are probably actually from extremely poor countries and live and work in gangs doing all the usual gang illegal stuff in addition to doing hits (for relatively low sums). I think dark web hitmen are entirely scams, but I suppose if we can literally buy heroin or crystal meth online from the dark web, it’s not entirely naive to think aprori that hits could also be purchased. The reason they’re not is probably that it’s actuslly extremely difficult to regularly perform hits in the West, and probably not a great business model to scale on the dark web for the average Joe who wants to pay only a few grand for a hit.
    - AndyMcConachie 8y ago
      Richard Kuklinski was a fulltime hitman. He had some other scams on the side, but killing was his business. I suspect that when you're running a large criminal enterprise you need people like Kuklinski on a kind of retainer basis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kuklinski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kuklinski https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTDo4fUW4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTDo4fUW4s
      - Moodles 8y ago
        > Richard Kuklinski was a fulltime hitman The wikipedia page you linked says: > Throughout his criminal life, Kuklinski was involved in narcotics, pornography, arms dealing, money laundering, collecting debts for loan sharking, hijacking and contract killing.
- hackermailman 8y ago
  The way it typically works with mid level street gangs is somebody or a group of criminals (crowd sourced murder) floats a bounty on some other criminal, and other freelancer mid level guys try and collect it. They pass around 'paperwork' to each other which is usually evidence of said target collaborating with police or breaking some other gangster code. There is always more than enough violent and foolish street criminals willing to claim the bounty. Somebody tried running a crowd sourced tor hidden service scheme for murder a few years ago IIRC.
empath75 8y ago
Did you seriously just ask how people who buy crypto can fall for obvious scams?
koonsolo 8y ago
In the early 2000's, I knew a guy that responded to a spam message, which seemed like an obvious scam. It was selling illegal software on DVD. After you pay through VISA, they would send you some DVD's with cracked software. For me it was obvious that they would clear his VISA. But weeks later, he received the DVD's, and didn't have trouble with his VISA getting stolen. Seemed like a "legit" business. I still can't believe it, but sometimes it seems to work out just fine (⊙＿⊙')
- will4274 8y ago
  Sounds just like the online fakeid business. Those guys actually do offer discounts for bulk orders!
danso 8y ago
The way you describe such a person makes that person sound like a person who is desperate and irrational. I think that's part of your answer right there.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
cwkoss 8y ago
Sybil attacks are much easier on the dark web: make a few dozen sockpuppets to leave 'positive feedback' around forums vouching that it really works.
dbuder 8y ago
The darknet drug business model kinda works, a darknet assassination network doesn't, if law enforcement find your drug site, they can send themselves some drugs and try to find some security breaches to catch you, if LE find your murder site they can get you to come to them and poof you're busted.

simion314 8y ago

There is also the risk that all is a trap and you incriminate yourself, even if you try to be anonymous there is a risk to make a mistake and leave a trace.

elliekelly 8y ago
This is what's so mind boggling to me. Even if the criminal never provides their name or any identifying information they have to provide the name of their target. I'd imagine if the police told a victim someone tried to put a hit on them the victim would probably have a pretty good idea of the criminal's identity for the police to then investigate.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jpatokal 8y ago

Hitmen are an actual thing that exists, it's not crazy to expect them to be available for hire via the dark web. In terms of legality and the consequences of being caught, ordering a hit on someone is not that different from ordering a kilo of heroin, and the dark web facilitates that pretty well. (Morality is, of course, another matter.)

simion314 8y ago
What happens if you buy something from the dark web and you receive nothing or some garbage, there is always a large risk of being scammed, some people have too much bitcoins and could afford losing some.
- bufferoverflow 8y ago
  That's what escrows and reviews are for.
  - simion314 8y ago
    How can I trust the reviews and the escrows, explain it to me as you would explain someone that is not technical (so no crypto terms if possible). I mean we have fake reviews on Amazon and other sites. I assume you would buy something small, see if all is fine, then buy something more expensive wait and see how things work out, but for something very expensive how will it work, how is the mediation happening if I don't like what I receive or I am evil and report that I do not receive what I asked for?
    - SCHiM 8y ago
      Surprisingly enough, dark market sellers have excellent customer service. Since the market is completely transparent for a seller. On a number of dark markets both a seller and a buyer have a reputation that is tracked by the market. If a seller sees that you've bought before and this is the first time you ask for a refund they'll send you your order again. Same with the reviews, a seller that has been around for a few years on a market, has good reviews, is most likely not a scammer. If they were they would be banned from the (reputable) dark market(s).
      - makomk 8y ago
        The fact that users' reputations are visible apparently lead to a widespread swindle called "selective scamming": sellers would ship as normal to buyers with an established reputation, but just outright rip off new users knowing that the buyer would be assumed to be the scammer.
      - simion314 8y ago
        But as a buyer to build a reputation I need to buy multiple things , this means I need to buy drugs from X, a gun from Y, some forbidden magazines from Z, my anonymity drops with each purchase. If I would do heavy illegal things I would not reuse same identity. I doubt that the mafia on the dark web have real reviews and fair escrows.
pjc50 8y ago
They're extremely rare in the real Western world, though. And even when they do operate, it's on a connections basis. Certainly compared to how appallingly routine domestic violence is, and how long a red-flagged situation can be left alone by law enforcement. (& hitmen-for-hire is so much rarer than drugs trading that reviews won't work, and escrow is inconcievable)
yawaworhtttt 8y ago
Hitmen don't actually make their service readily available* like a pizza restaurant's website, and the ones who do quickly get caught - natural selection if you will. I haven't ever heard of a case of someone getting targeted by an online hit ordered through one of those websites, which you'd expect to if even a single one of them were actually legit. Which makes sense from an economic point of view - there's much more incentive running a (relatively inoffensive) scam and making boatloads of money, rather than risking lifetime jail and committing atrocities to make the same amount of money. As for ordering drugs, the legal consequences vary a lot depending on the country's jurisdiction. There's also such a thing as a priority list in law enforcement, and they presumably care a lot more about murders than drug use, so one will draw much more attention than the other. *Yes, readily available. There's nothing "dark" about a website that can only being accessible through special software, it's been a thing since the days of Usenet and BBS.
- jpatokal 8y ago
  Online drug dealers are similarly incentivized to sell oregano and baking soda, yet apparently there are plenty of real drugs being transacted as well, including quantities well beyond personal use. And it does depend on the jurisdiction: I'd wager that in (say) the Philippines and some parts of Central America a kilo of heroin would draw more police attention than a murder, unless the victim is well connected. And to be clear, I'm not saying murder for hire on the Internet is a thing; I'm just mildly surprised nobody seems to have done it yet, especially now that cryptocurrencies have pretty much solved the largest problem of how to get paid.
  - lordnacho 8y ago
    There's probably a lot of people who think drugs ought to be legal, and that they're only avoiding an unreasonable law when they sell you drugs. There's probably a lot fewer people who think that about the hitman business.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - 8y ago
pmart123 8y ago
I'm sure there is a crazy world of high-end assassins given the incidents involving Jamal Khashoggi, Viktor Yushchenko, Alexander Litvinenko, etc. But from a business standpoint and morality aside, the "every person" assassin almost seems as bad of a business model as the one high school kid who sells fake ids. You have a bunch of one time customers, extremely high legal risks versus the financial payoff, and a high likelihood of eventually getting caught. With drugs, you have addicted, and therefore, repeat customers.
- Moodles 8y ago
  Indeed, I would suspect that real hitmen usually aren’t full time hitmen as an occupation. In the case of the highend examples you mention, they’re probably ex special forces or spies for that country that usually don’t get asked to do that, but do some other jobs for their paymasters. And most “hitmen” are probably actually from extremely poor countries and live and work in gangs doing all the usual gang illegal stuff in addition to doing hits (for relatively low sums). I think dark web hitmen are entirely scams, but I suppose if we can literally buy heroin or crystal meth online from the dark web, it’s not entirely naive to think aprori that hits could also be purchased. The reason they’re not is probably that it’s actuslly extremely difficult to regularly perform hits in the West, and probably not a great business model to scale on the dark web for the average Joe who wants to pay only a few grand for a hit.
  - AndyMcConachie 8y ago
    Richard Kuklinski was a fulltime hitman. He had some other scams on the side, but killing was his business. I suspect that when you're running a large criminal enterprise you need people like Kuklinski on a kind of retainer basis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kuklinski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kuklinski https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTDo4fUW4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpTDo4fUW4s
    - Moodles 8y ago
      > Richard Kuklinski was a fulltime hitman The wikipedia page you linked says: > Throughout his criminal life, Kuklinski was involved in narcotics, pornography, arms dealing, money laundering, collecting debts for loan sharking, hijacking and contract killing.
hackermailman 8y ago
The way it typically works with mid level street gangs is somebody or a group of criminals (crowd sourced murder) floats a bounty on some other criminal, and other freelancer mid level guys try and collect it. They pass around 'paperwork' to each other which is usually evidence of said target collaborating with police or breaking some other gangster code. There is always more than enough violent and foolish street criminals willing to claim the bounty. Somebody tried running a crowd sourced tor hidden service scheme for murder a few years ago IIRC.

empath75 8y ago

Did you seriously just ask how people who buy crypto can fall for obvious scams?

koonsolo 8y ago

In the early 2000's, I knew a guy that responded to a spam message, which seemed like an obvious scam. It was selling illegal software on DVD. After you pay through VISA, they would send you some DVD's with cracked software. For me it was obvious that they would clear his VISA. But weeks later, he received the DVD's, and didn't have trouble with his VISA getting stolen. Seemed like a "legit" business. I still can't believe it, but sometimes it seems to work out just fine (⊙＿⊙')

will4274 8y ago
Sounds just like the online fakeid business. Those guys actually do offer discounts for bulk orders!

danso 8y ago

The way you describe such a person makes that person sound like a person who is desperate and irrational. I think that's part of your answer right there.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

cwkoss 8y ago

Sybil attacks are much easier on the dark web: make a few dozen sockpuppets to leave 'positive feedback' around forums vouching that it really works.

dbuder 8y ago

The darknet drug business model kinda works, a darknet assassination network doesn't, if law enforcement find your drug site, they can send themselves some drugs and try to find some security breaches to catch you, if LE find your murder site they can get you to come to them and poof you're busted.