10 ms·

The gig worker’s lament

53 points by petethomas 8y ago

StudentStuff 8y ago
Wow, did not realize how far behind California is on minimum wage, its only at $10.50/hr. Oregon is already at $10.75/hr in most rural counties, and $12 in Portland and surrounding areas. Meanwhile up here in Washington we're at $11.50, and Seattle proper is $15/hr here in a few days. How does the state justify letting businesses pull a fast one on contractors at $10/hr? Sounds like an end run around the law.
- jessriedel 8y ago
  Why would everywhere be expected to have the same minimum wage? SF is $15/hr.
  - metildaa 8y ago
    Living in LA on $10hr as a contractor (below state minimum wage) is only possible by corporations breaking the law. They are stealing from the worker, to the tune of at least $2/hr in this case as minimum wage in LA County is $12/hr: https://www.lacounty.gov/minimum-wage/ https://www.lacounty.gov/minimum-wage/
- dehrmann 8y ago
  You need to remember California has some pretty rural areas, too. While city-by-city policies don't work very well when nearby cities have different policies, state-wide (and nation-wide, for that matter) don't work well, either.
lsc 8y ago
What I find interesting is that at the higher end, contractors used to get paid more than full-timers. I've got about two decades of sysadmin work under my belt, both contract and direct hire. I mean, I've probably worked more as a contractor than as a direct hire? and I've turned down a bunch of "promotions" to direct hire 'cause I was making really good money, and the direct-hire job usually meant a pay cut. I mean, sure, people with kids and people who valued stability would still switch over to full time when given the opportunity, but if you were a gambler like me, you'd stick with the contract gig. But it seems like something changed this decade. Of the contract and direct hire jobs available to me? the direct-hire jobs just pay a whole lot more; like now? even if I only plan on sticking around another year, it totally makes sense to accept when they offer me the full time position. I mean, it could all be unique differences that have to do with my own situation, but I also think that the prestige has changed; contractors are looked down upon more than they were (I assume that prestige follows money)
- quickthrower2 8y ago
  I doubt the same company would offer less for a contract on the same position. I can see why it is balancing out in general though. More investor money going into companies that prefer to hire full time staff rather than contractors would push up rates for permanent staff.
- 0xADEADBEE 8y ago
  This is fascinating. What do you think possible causes for that might be? Is this an America/Bay Area thing or do you suspect it to be more widespread? Would be interested in other people's take on this also.
  - lsc 8y ago
    So my impression is largely a bay area/silicon valley impression, every time I try to work elsewhere, people start asking for degrees, which I don't have, and they also mention that they pay dramatically less. Or, at least, that is my experience, with the jobs I have been offered. My perception is that salaries for direct-hire software engineers at top-tier companies have gone way up in the last ten years or so. My impression is that contractor wages are... keeping up with inflation. Also note, my perception is that contractor interviews have not gotten much more difficult at all, while direct hire interviews have practically become contests of endurance; like you are expected to spend like 5x as much time on a direct hire interview than, say, 10 or 15 years ago, while you can do a contract interview over a long lunch. Companies also seem to be okay paying Engineers very significant sales-style performance bonuses (in fact, this is where almost all of that increase in pay has come from) and this really helps them keep the gamblers; the people like me who jump every few years 'cause someone offered 20% more. (I mean, the bonus system is another system you need to learn to game, but it's not harder than the interview system.) My speculation (and I'm totally unqualified to speculate on sociological trends, but you asked.) is that something has changed, and the cultural prestige of the Engineer has gone way up, and that this has changed management's willingness to spend directly on Engineer compensation.
    - Aloha 8y ago
dehrmann 8y ago
Is this just the result of companies still having a fear of commitment after the great recession? Because using contractors to save money isn't new. I remember a Simpsons episode where Homer was laid off(?) from the nuclear power plant, then hired back on as an independent contractor without benefits.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Also less demand for labor overall allowing the purchases of labor to be able to make demands such as requiring the labor to work as contractors.
PhantomGremlin 8y ago
Interesting that this is allowed to appear in the Washington Post. Apparently not everyone there has drunk the Amazon/Bezos Kool-Aid. Around here there are plenty of poorly paid gig workers driving around in their own cars, delivering counterfeit crap bought on Amazon. But that's OK. Jeff needs all the money he can get so he can continue to fund Blue Origin. Soon we will all be getting on those rockets and heading out to Mars and the Asteroid Belt. What's the minimum wage out there? I'm getting too old for this. It really doesn't affect me much any more, but I don't think my kids will be living in a better world. Back in the "good old days" all we had to worry about was the Red Menace and the Chicoms. Merry Christmas.
pdkl95 8y ago
From the game Night In The Woods: "There's No Reception in Possum Springs" No reception here I wave my black phone In the air like a flare like a prayer but no reception I read on the Internet baby face boy billionaire phone app sold made more money in one day than my family over 100 generations More than my whole world ever has world where house-buying jobs became rent-paying job became living with family jobs Boy billionaires Money is access access to politicians waiting for us to die lead in our water alcohol and painkillers replace my job with an app replace my dreams of a house and a yard With a couch in the basement "The future is yours!" Forced 24-7 entrepreneurs. I just want a paycheck and my own life i'm on the couch in the basement they're in the house and the yard some night I will catch a bus out to the west coast and burn their silicon city to the ground
amriksohata 8y ago
@lsc also noticed the same in the UK an average contract developer ten years ago outside of London was paid £350 a day, today it's still the same, whilst permanent jobs have gone up by 25% annually. In development atleast contracting is looked down upon
- mattmanser 8y ago
  An average developer outside of London is paid £45k, which is massively less than £350 a day. Cwjobs reckons contractors are on £93k avg while full time employees are on £52k avg, including London. That's not even close. https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-programmer-salary https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-programmer-s...
  - alkonaut 8y ago
    45k is a salary and 350/day is a contract. The former I assume contains some job security, paid vacation, sick days etc. I’d probably charge twice my current daily income if I switched to contracting and still not feel it was a great deal.
    - badpun 8y ago
      The real kicker in the UK are contractors’ taxes, which are much lower than full timers’. It really makes little financial sense to work a full time job.
- adav 8y ago
  > In development atleast contracting is looked down upon Would you mind elaborating on why you think contractors are looked down upon? In my experience – as a full-time and contract developer working in London – the opposite seems true. Contractors on a team are usually senior developers and when the best of them move contracts (or aren't extended), I've seen full-timers leave (or switch teams) shortly after. More junior developers lose the person they were most learning from. Teams looking after specific projects have died because of this. I have heard snarky comments about pay though. If a contractor is talking about going out for lunch, it's often followed by an insinuation that they're more loaded.

53 points by petethomas 8y ago

Wow, did not realize how far behind California is on minimum wage, its only at $10.50/hr. Oregon is already at $10.75/hr in most rural counties, and $12 in Portland and surrounding areas. Meanwhile up here in Washington we're at $11.50, and Seattle proper is $15/hr here in a few days. How does the state justify letting businesses pull a fast one on contractors at $10/hr? Sounds like an end run around the law.

jessriedel 8y ago
Why would everywhere be expected to have the same minimum wage? SF is $15/hr.
- metildaa 8y ago
  Living in LA on $10hr as a contractor (below state minimum wage) is only possible by corporations breaking the law. They are stealing from the worker, to the tune of at least $2/hr in this case as minimum wage in LA County is $12/hr: https://www.lacounty.gov/minimum-wage/ https://www.lacounty.gov/minimum-wage/
dehrmann 8y ago
You need to remember California has some pretty rural areas, too. While city-by-city policies don't work very well when nearby cities have different policies, state-wide (and nation-wide, for that matter) don't work well, either.

lsc 8y ago

What I find interesting is that at the higher end, contractors used to get paid more than full-timers. I've got about two decades of sysadmin work under my belt, both contract and direct hire. I mean, I've probably worked more as a contractor than as a direct hire? and I've turned down a bunch of "promotions" to direct hire 'cause I was making really good money, and the direct-hire job usually meant a pay cut. I mean, sure, people with kids and people who valued stability would still switch over to full time when given the opportunity, but if you were a gambler like me, you'd stick with the contract gig. But it seems like something changed this decade. Of the contract and direct hire jobs available to me? the direct-hire jobs just pay a whole lot more; like now? even if I only plan on sticking around another year, it totally makes sense to accept when they offer me the full time position. I mean, it could all be unique differences that have to do with my own situation, but I also think that the prestige has changed; contractors are looked down upon more than they were (I assume that prestige follows money)

quickthrower2 8y ago
I doubt the same company would offer less for a contract on the same position. I can see why it is balancing out in general though. More investor money going into companies that prefer to hire full time staff rather than contractors would push up rates for permanent staff.
0xADEADBEE 8y ago
This is fascinating. What do you think possible causes for that might be? Is this an America/Bay Area thing or do you suspect it to be more widespread? Would be interested in other people's take on this also.
- lsc 8y ago
  So my impression is largely a bay area/silicon valley impression, every time I try to work elsewhere, people start asking for degrees, which I don't have, and they also mention that they pay dramatically less. Or, at least, that is my experience, with the jobs I have been offered. My perception is that salaries for direct-hire software engineers at top-tier companies have gone way up in the last ten years or so. My impression is that contractor wages are... keeping up with inflation. Also note, my perception is that contractor interviews have not gotten much more difficult at all, while direct hire interviews have practically become contests of endurance; like you are expected to spend like 5x as much time on a direct hire interview than, say, 10 or 15 years ago, while you can do a contract interview over a long lunch. Companies also seem to be okay paying Engineers very significant sales-style performance bonuses (in fact, this is where almost all of that increase in pay has come from) and this really helps them keep the gamblers; the people like me who jump every few years 'cause someone offered 20% more. (I mean, the bonus system is another system you need to learn to game, but it's not harder than the interview system.) My speculation (and I'm totally unqualified to speculate on sociological trends, but you asked.) is that something has changed, and the cultural prestige of the Engineer has gone way up, and that this has changed management's willingness to spend directly on Engineer compensation.
  - Aloha 8y ago

dehrmann 8y ago

Is this just the result of companies still having a fear of commitment after the great recession? Because using contractors to save money isn't new. I remember a Simpsons episode where Homer was laid off(?) from the nuclear power plant, then hired back on as an independent contractor without benefits.

lotsofpulp 8y ago
Also less demand for labor overall allowing the purchases of labor to be able to make demands such as requiring the labor to work as contractors.

PhantomGremlin 8y ago

Interesting that this is allowed to appear in the Washington Post. Apparently not everyone there has drunk the Amazon/Bezos Kool-Aid. Around here there are plenty of poorly paid gig workers driving around in their own cars, delivering counterfeit crap bought on Amazon. But that's OK. Jeff needs all the money he can get so he can continue to fund Blue Origin. Soon we will all be getting on those rockets and heading out to Mars and the Asteroid Belt. What's the minimum wage out there? I'm getting too old for this. It really doesn't affect me much any more, but I don't think my kids will be living in a better world. Back in the "good old days" all we had to worry about was the Red Menace and the Chicoms. Merry Christmas.

pdkl95 8y ago

From the game Night In The Woods: "There's No Reception in Possum Springs" No reception here I wave my black phone In the air like a flare like a prayer but no reception I read on the Internet baby face boy billionaire phone app sold made more money in one day than my family over 100 generations More than my whole world ever has world where house-buying jobs became rent-paying job became living with family jobs Boy billionaires Money is access access to politicians waiting for us to die lead in our water alcohol and painkillers replace my job with an app replace my dreams of a house and a yard With a couch in the basement "The future is yours!" Forced 24-7 entrepreneurs. I just want a paycheck and my own life i'm on the couch in the basement they're in the house and the yard some night I will catch a bus out to the west coast and burn their silicon city to the ground

amriksohata 8y ago

@lsc also noticed the same in the UK an average contract developer ten years ago outside of London was paid £350 a day, today it's still the same, whilst permanent jobs have gone up by 25% annually. In development atleast contracting is looked down upon

mattmanser 8y ago
An average developer outside of London is paid £45k, which is massively less than £350 a day. Cwjobs reckons contractors are on £93k avg while full time employees are on £52k avg, including London. That's not even close. https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-programmer-salary https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-programmer-s...
- alkonaut 8y ago
  45k is a salary and 350/day is a contract. The former I assume contains some job security, paid vacation, sick days etc. I’d probably charge twice my current daily income if I switched to contracting and still not feel it was a great deal.
  - badpun 8y ago
    The real kicker in the UK are contractors’ taxes, which are much lower than full timers’. It really makes little financial sense to work a full time job.
adav 8y ago
> In development atleast contracting is looked down upon Would you mind elaborating on why you think contractors are looked down upon? In my experience – as a full-time and contract developer working in London – the opposite seems true. Contractors on a team are usually senior developers and when the best of them move contracts (or aren't extended), I've seen full-timers leave (or switch teams) shortly after. More junior developers lose the person they were most learning from. Teams looking after specific projects have died because of this. I have heard snarky comments about pay though. If a contractor is talking about going out for lunch, it's often followed by an insinuation that they're more loaded.