5 ms·
The question is; where does it end? Sure, I guess you could say Patreon has the right to ban people from its service. But people have found its not easy or pra
by CM30 8y ago
The question is; where does it end?
Sure, I guess you could say Patreon has the right to ban people from its service. But people have found its not easy or practical to compete with them. They've found everyone from their domain registrar to their website host to their payment processor refusing to do business with them.
And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views are unpopular enough. No one wants to be a service or common carrier, everyone buckles under controversy when it occurs. Should some views only be expressable by millionaires or people with enough resources not to need services from anyone? It's not legal censorship, but it's de facto censorship none the less.
As the likes of SubscribeStar found out, offering a 'free speech' alternative to Patreon is now virtually impossible because of it.
https://www.ft.com/content/7c4285b2-fe2f-11e8-ac00-57a2a826423e https://www.ft.com/content/7c4285b2-fe2f-11e8-ac00-57a2a8264...
- PeterMikhailov 8y agoI'm ok with the line being "dont host the Daily Stormer"
- cabalamat 8y agoBut that isn't the line, the line is don't be Sargon of Akkad.
- thefourthturn 8y agoAnd tomorrow the line will be don't be Republican. People will not take this lying down.
- bilbo0s 8y agoOK with that line too. Guy's a douche.
- cabalamat 8y agoAnd what about when the line is you? Will that also be OK? First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me. -- Martin Niemoeller
- wsy 8y agoThat citation is about putting people in concentration camps, not about free speech. It is characteristic of the people now banned by Patreon - and their followers - to stylize themselves as martyrs. However, they are just unwelcome, like someone ranting loudly at a bar. There is nothing going on that threatens anyone's life.
- casiotone 8y agoBut in this case, they're banning the people coming for us...
- jesssse 8y agoAnd tomorrow the line will be don't be Republican. Republicans were banned IRL from a public parade in Portland, OR.
- glennpratt 8y agoCan you link to what you are talking about? Because if it's what I think it is, this is my neighborhood. It was a parade cancelled to avoid violence, mostly by people who don't live in this neighborhood and don't care about the parade but about politics.
- Semiapies 8y ago"Don't be"? He's been declared outlaw and hunted across the land? No? He's been rounded up and put in a camp? No? He's been arrested? No? A company doesn't want the business of him and his followers. That's it.
- cabalamat 8y ago> No one wants to be a service or common carrier Payment processing services such as PayPal and Visa absolutely should be common carriers, because of the great power they can have over people by denying them financial services. The SubscribeStar controversy being a good example.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago> And at some point, that means it becomes virtually impossible to express yourself if your views are unpopular enough. This is how free speech has always worked, though. You could always get on a soapbox in a public plaza and rant, but the potential engaged audience there is pretty small. If you wanted a real audience, even in older times you would've needed a newspaper to print your thoughts, or a publisher to help with your books. "Few people will be listening to highly unpopular messages" hardly seems like something to get in a tiff over, if it's just the result of the free market of ideas.
- zepto 8y agoExcept that they aren’t necessarily highly unpopular. They are just outside of the political norms that happen to be popular within a small class in control of the platforms.
- aeternus 8y agoIf they aren't highly unpopular then there should be a demand and market for services/platforms that do allow those opinions. Even though not as large, another company/service should be able to fill the void.
- marcosdumay 8y agoWhat smaller company is out there competing with Cloudflare, or Partenon? There isn't, because there's a minimum size to enter those markets, and not enough scale to sustain niches.
- stevenicr 8y agoI was under the impression that the main thing preventing "another company/service should be able to fill the void." - is the rules and hoops / unchecked power of the visa/mc/amex etc. I have seen rumors about us gov and other govs pressuring cc authorities to do things in certain ways as well, however my senator says there is no proof rumored pressure changed anything in one case that I write about. there is demand and market for many things that the CC companies make difficult or impossible, the problem is the CC companies make it difficult or impossible to provide to those markets. Threats from the CC places make many places move to the side of err caution and further marginalize groups. In some cases simply removing some of the banks and such that will do business with some groups gives the few banks that do leverage to charge exorbitant fees and people live with the constant threat that their fees will go up, or the bank will give up and they will have no provider at all. This changes published expression even when there is an option.