4 ms·

> Or Visa likewise today -- it's understood that other people will use the same plastic to pay for things you morally disapprove of, just as they could use cash

> Or Visa likewise today -- it's understood that other people will use the same plastic to pay for things you morally disapprove of, just as they could use cash. But it's positioned as a neutral carrier, and nobody cares (I think). Heh, well I hope so. But that recent NYTimes story[0] about how mass shootings used guns and ammo bought with a credit card makes me unsure about that. I'd have thought using cash vs credit was more or less interchangeable, and either the person should be allowed to buy the firearms or not. But given the focus on how it was bought, makes me think there's some movement towards expecting Visa and the like to not be simply neutral facilitators of transactions. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/24/business/dealbook/mass-shootings-credit-cards.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/24/business/deal...

monksy 8y ago
I have a huge concern over anyone who is stating that the CCs are to partly to be blamed. Yes, they were used for firearms. Firearms are expensive and plastic (for the most part) is the currency in the US. For me that's flipping the bozo bit for that individual. It's not "fascism" or "trump" that we should be afraid of. It's the mob rule.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  > It's not "fascism" or "trump" that we should be afraid of. If you don't have anything to fear from Trump, that's nice for you, but given that he's openly calling for me and people dear to me to have our civil rights revoked, it's pretty shitty of you to tell me that I shouldn't be afraid of him.
  - monksy 8y ago
    In America, we have 3 branches of government with checks and balances additionally we have very difficult to modify rights given in the constitution. Things are not likely to change.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      Gay people weren't given the federal right to marry until three years ago. Trans people still don't have equal protection under the law. And none of the rights that do exist are enshrined in the Constitution at all.
    - KozmoNau7 8y ago
      And yet attacks on gays, blacks and other minorities have risen sharply since Trump came to power, perpetrated by people emboldened by his (quasi-)fascist rhetoric and bluster.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  > It's not "fascism" or "trump" that we should be afraid of. Oh, people should really be concerned about fascism. It's just not coming from the groups outed trying to bring it (what should be obvious, outed groups do not succeed). But there are people pushing hard for individual-erasing collectivism, explicitly labeling people in ethnics belief and sex, and suppressing every unaligned idea to the point where it's not viable for the people that have them to even speak. (A late edit: I don't think Pathernon is on this group. They did nothing wrong, they just happen to be in a place where no move was a good one.)
iguy 8y ago
Thanks, I heard about this gun case & forgot. So this points out that it's not only about new kinds business, but about a changing mood in general, even in old businesses. By new kinds business I mean that lots of internet companies seem to be awkwardly half-way between neutral infrastructure (like Windows, and your water company) and being publications (which of course have an editorial line).
lykr0n 8y ago
The takeaway from that article I got was that companies are handing out credit to anybody who wants it- and some people take advantage of that when they want to go out with a bang. Hellfire would rain down on any Network (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover) who thought about refusing to process firearm purchases. The NRA, any republican, and liberals like myself who support fundamental rights would be rightly pissed that a hard-to-avoid service such as the Visa network was making a decision on what I can or cannot do with my money. Because the minute you start making those decisions, it's a slippery sloap. Their business prints them money, so why would they want to kick the hornets net? This is why I'm extremely weary of anyone who declares that Cash is Dead, or the future is Credit/Debit cards
- nicky0 8y ago
  > myself who support fundamental rights would be rightly pissed that a hard-to-avoid service such as the Visa network was making a decision on what I can or cannot do with my money. But that is exactly what is happening. Visa is saying to Patreon - don't let people give money to XYZ persons via your platform.
- snerbles 8y ago
  This is already starting to happen. Where's the hellfire? https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-payment-gun-sales-1282.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-payment-gu... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/business/banks-gun-sales.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/business/banks-gun-sales.... https://nypost.com/2018/06/11/gun-businesses-scrambling-after-credit-service-halts-payments/ https://nypost.com/2018/06/11/gun-businesses-scrambling-afte... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-credit-card-companies-ban-gun-sales-2018-02-23 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-credit-card-companie...
  - lykr0n 8y ago
    Those look like two isolated cases at the payment processors. But if that keeps up, it'll be a quick road to legislation
  - darkpuma 8y ago
aetherson 8y ago
I was reading some tangential article the other day which suggested that porn services had difficulty with Visa not doing business with them.
- jstarfish 8y ago
  That's less for ideological grounds and entirely to do with the chargebacks that ensue when the wife finds the bill and the husband denies everything, insisting the card was stolen, and the shitty business models of shady outfits opting you into recurring subscriptions that require your using a credit card as "age verification." All of it gets contested and it's more trouble than it's worth.
- astura 8y ago
  American Express explicitly bans porn outright. It's not for some prudish reasons though, it's because porn has a very high fraud/chargeback rate.

monksy 8y ago

I have a huge concern over anyone who is stating that the CCs are to partly to be blamed. Yes, they were used for firearms. Firearms are expensive and plastic (for the most part) is the currency in the US. For me that's flipping the bozo bit for that individual. It's not "fascism" or "trump" that we should be afraid of. It's the mob rule.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago
> It's not "fascism" or "trump" that we should be afraid of. If you don't have anything to fear from Trump, that's nice for you, but given that he's openly calling for me and people dear to me to have our civil rights revoked, it's pretty shitty of you to tell me that I shouldn't be afraid of him.
- monksy 8y ago
  In America, we have 3 branches of government with checks and balances additionally we have very difficult to modify rights given in the constitution. Things are not likely to change.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    Gay people weren't given the federal right to marry until three years ago. Trans people still don't have equal protection under the law. And none of the rights that do exist are enshrined in the Constitution at all.
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    And yet attacks on gays, blacks and other minorities have risen sharply since Trump came to power, perpetrated by people emboldened by his (quasi-)fascist rhetoric and bluster.
marcosdumay 8y ago
> It's not "fascism" or "trump" that we should be afraid of. Oh, people should really be concerned about fascism. It's just not coming from the groups outed trying to bring it (what should be obvious, outed groups do not succeed). But there are people pushing hard for individual-erasing collectivism, explicitly labeling people in ethnics belief and sex, and suppressing every unaligned idea to the point where it's not viable for the people that have them to even speak. (A late edit: I don't think Pathernon is on this group. They did nothing wrong, they just happen to be in a place where no move was a good one.)

iguy 8y ago

Thanks, I heard about this gun case & forgot. So this points out that it's not only about new kinds business, but about a changing mood in general, even in old businesses. By new kinds business I mean that lots of internet companies seem to be awkwardly half-way between neutral infrastructure (like Windows, and your water company) and being publications (which of course have an editorial line).

lykr0n 8y ago

The takeaway from that article I got was that companies are handing out credit to anybody who wants it- and some people take advantage of that when they want to go out with a bang. Hellfire would rain down on any Network (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover) who thought about refusing to process firearm purchases. The NRA, any republican, and liberals like myself who support fundamental rights would be rightly pissed that a hard-to-avoid service such as the Visa network was making a decision on what I can or cannot do with my money. Because the minute you start making those decisions, it's a slippery sloap. Their business prints them money, so why would they want to kick the hornets net? This is why I'm extremely weary of anyone who declares that Cash is Dead, or the future is Credit/Debit cards

nicky0 8y ago
> myself who support fundamental rights would be rightly pissed that a hard-to-avoid service such as the Visa network was making a decision on what I can or cannot do with my money. But that is exactly what is happening. Visa is saying to Patreon - don't let people give money to XYZ persons via your platform.
snerbles 8y ago
This is already starting to happen. Where's the hellfire? https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-payment-gun-sales-1282.php https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/card-payment-gu... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/business/banks-gun-sales.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/19/business/banks-gun-sales.... https://nypost.com/2018/06/11/gun-businesses-scrambling-after-credit-service-halts-payments/ https://nypost.com/2018/06/11/gun-businesses-scrambling-afte... https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-credit-card-companies-ban-gun-sales-2018-02-23 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/could-credit-card-companie...
- lykr0n 8y ago
  Those look like two isolated cases at the payment processors. But if that keeps up, it'll be a quick road to legislation
- darkpuma 8y ago

aetherson 8y ago

I was reading some tangential article the other day which suggested that porn services had difficulty with Visa not doing business with them.

jstarfish 8y ago
That's less for ideological grounds and entirely to do with the chargebacks that ensue when the wife finds the bill and the husband denies everything, insisting the card was stolen, and the shitty business models of shady outfits opting you into recurring subscriptions that require your using a credit card as "age verification." All of it gets contested and it's more trouble than it's worth.
astura 8y ago
American Express explicitly bans porn outright. It's not for some prudish reasons though, it's because porn has a very high fraud/chargeback rate.