6 ms·

I love it. I listen to my dads stories and not that long ago you could up and moves states or country and leave your past behind. Then the Internet happened and

by 14 8y ago

I love it. I listen to my dads stories and not that long ago you could up and moves states or country and leave your past behind. Then the Internet happened and there was no escaping your past. Speeding tickets could find you. Arrests records were kept online and your identity could catch up to you in an instance. I hope more of this AI stuff takes off and we get some of that deniability anonymity back. I truly do think the Internet was an awesome landscape when people could express themselves openly and feel they were truly anonymous. These fake images may give us back some of that sense anything could be real or fake around us.

moate 8y ago
I mean, don't get me wrong, I think our society is becoming a more and more observed and cataloged as time goes on which isn't the best thing when coupled with growing distrust in government behavior, but the examples you give really don't help the cause there comrade. Your point really sounds like "I'm glad I'm able to create a more believable fake identity online so I can commit crimes and not get busted!"
- perfmode 8y ago
  Yeah. We need to protect human rights. We don’t need mechanisms to subvert just means of accountability. It’s true that the same tools may cut both ways, but let’s keep in perspective what ends are of collective value.
  - mindslight 8y ago
    This philosophy is plainly false with the ongoing criminalization of victimless behavior. Most all drug possession is still heavily penalized for no collective benefit. Meanwhile the crooks on Wall Street continue unhindered, with no sign that accountability will ever come. Especially alarming is the push to tie Internet activity to real world identities, under the guise of post-facto accountability. The Internet is a medium which purposely eschewed ambient enforcement in lieu of end-to-end intelligence, and yet we're continually seeing (many successful) pushes to drag us back to that legacy post-facto natural-language imperfect-enforcement regime that benefits those in power.
- CraneWorm 8y ago
  Well I AM glad to be able to create a more believable fake identity online. Being able to commit crimes and not get busted is just one of the many perks that come with it.
  - no-s 8y ago
    especially when the crimes were created to secure the power of the state at the expense of the individual rights, e.g. to ensure the supremacy of one class over another. Government is not synonymous with justice.
    - FiveSquared 8y ago
      True, but it’s a nesscary evil man. Government is created for organizing a colleticve response. If their was a way to stop blatantly evil things like murder without the need for centralized power and centralized response, I’m all ears. Unfortunately, humans are hard-wired to create and maintain athority.
  - moate 8y ago
    Let's just clear up my stance here: "I want to be able to create a fake identity online..." Fine. Great. Have at it! Privacy and anonymity, what marvels in this modern age! "...in order to evade the law while I commit crimes, or escape the law after my past crimes." Ehhhhh...this is a rough bit folks. Listen, you want to pitch full on class war, us vs the government "there is no just man working for the injustice of tyranny" sort of shit, that's fine. It's just that's the sort of shit that gets the government involved MUCH faster. I just feel a bit of subtlety might be better in the earlier goings. I understand that a knife can be used to make food or kill a man but you don't see most knife manufacturers advertising how quickly they can gut somebody for good reason. That's all I'm trying to say.
    - c22 8y ago
      But your stance is hyperbolic because the original poster didn't say they wanted anonymity so they could commit crimes, they said they appreciated the option to "leave their past behind". Presumably if one is "in the system" they've already been caught and punished for their crime. I totally understand the desire to be able to move forward without the cloud of your past looming over you, and to be honest, I imagine the ability to do so may increase someone's chances of living the remainder of their life in an upstanding manner. Also, as you must know, a disturbingly large proportion of "ex-cons" have trumped up charges on their record or were even completely innocent as our modern judicial systems prioritize efficiency over truth.
13of40 8y ago
I was just thinking something along that vein last night: I was watching Stanley Kubrick's Barry Lyndon and early on there's a part where the main character deserts from the British Army by stealing the horse, uniform, and identity papers of an officer. The identity papers were the interesting part, because it was before photographs, so presumably the only biometric information they contained could have been height, hair color, etc. Once we got photographs, they must have had a huge chilling effect on that sort of thing, much like the spectre of facial recognition that we're facing today, but it's one that's already come and gone. (And by "gone" I mean "wedged itself so firmly in the status quo that we never think about it".)
- scelerat 8y ago
  40-year spoiler: Barry is caught because although his papers pass muster with his Prussian escort, his story does not. After conversation over beers, Captain Potzdorf sniffs out Lyndon's BS stories quite easily. It would be interesting to know what "identity papers" consisted of in 1760. Biometrics are one thing, but they are not the only thing. Funny -- I watched Barry Lyndon last night, too.
  - paganel 8y ago
    Funny thing, I was this close of re-watching Barry Lyndon with my gf last night too, but instead we chose the Incredibles 2, and I also read today this very interesting article from the Economist on the concept of identity: https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2018/12/18/establishing-identity-is-a-vital-risky-and-changing-business https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2018/12/18/esta...
    - tomcam 8y ago
      That is one wide-ranging, apparently well-researched article. Not a fan of the Economist but I think I need to revisit my prejudice. Thank you.
- a3n 8y ago
  Lois XVI, trying to escape the revolution, was recognized by his image on a form of paper money. In effect, he had sent wanted posters all over the country. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Varennes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Varennes
KineticLensman 8y ago
The idea that improving technology will make it impossible to 'leave your past behind' is a key plot point in the 1989 SF book 'The Boat of a Million Years' by Poul Anderson [0] <spoiler> The story concerns people who are effectively immortal barring death by massive injury. They don't age and often face ostracism or worse by superstitious or resentful neighbours / friends / children. They frequently (re)use the obvious solution - moving on and assuming a new identity - many times over 2000 years of different episodes. However, this becomes untenable and they eventually reveal their identity to a population that is itself becoming long-lived due to improved medical technology. It's a great read and one of those that illustrates the fact that good SF writers can often write extremely good historical novels. Many of its historical episodes are superb interpretations of periods of history that nowadays aren't particularly well known., e.g. in the post-Roman near east. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boat_of_a_Million_Years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boat_of_a_Million_Years
- usrusr 8y ago
  > e.g. in the post-Roman near east. Oh, that's the big one in terms of environments underserved by historical fiction. Any chance we can get Stephenson to get obsessed with it?
- signa11 8y ago
  oh, there is a movie on similar lines called "the man from earth" where the protagonist claims to have survived for 15 or so millennia. to keep others from realizing that he doesn't age, he moves every decade or so...
iseeyoubydesign 8y ago
I hate it , at what point does the word "real" mean when you cant tell the difference? This is not helpful at all
porpoisely 8y ago
I had the same concern as you. But I figured it would take space travel to escape our past and our identities. But this AI does offer us alternatives until space travel becomes a reality.
robotresearcher 8y ago
The article is about synthesizing images of nonexistent people, not making fakes of real people. Imaginary people have no effect on your anonymity.
- Just_Smith 8y ago
  Except when upload a fake image as your profile picture. Facial detection algorithms are some of the most refined ML algorithms today. There are already plenty of social media sites that check profile pictures for the presence of a face, and Facebook goes as far as figuring out which face is yours.

by 14 8y ago

moate 8y ago

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think our society is becoming a more and more observed and cataloged as time goes on which isn't the best thing when coupled with growing distrust in government behavior, but the examples you give really don't help the cause there comrade. Your point really sounds like "I'm glad I'm able to create a more believable fake identity online so I can commit crimes and not get busted!"

perfmode 8y ago
Yeah. We need to protect human rights. We don’t need mechanisms to subvert just means of accountability. It’s true that the same tools may cut both ways, but let’s keep in perspective what ends are of collective value.
- mindslight 8y ago
  This philosophy is plainly false with the ongoing criminalization of victimless behavior. Most all drug possession is still heavily penalized for no collective benefit. Meanwhile the crooks on Wall Street continue unhindered, with no sign that accountability will ever come. Especially alarming is the push to tie Internet activity to real world identities, under the guise of post-facto accountability. The Internet is a medium which purposely eschewed ambient enforcement in lieu of end-to-end intelligence, and yet we're continually seeing (many successful) pushes to drag us back to that legacy post-facto natural-language imperfect-enforcement regime that benefits those in power.
CraneWorm 8y ago
Well I AM glad to be able to create a more believable fake identity online. Being able to commit crimes and not get busted is just one of the many perks that come with it.
- no-s 8y ago
  especially when the crimes were created to secure the power of the state at the expense of the individual rights, e.g. to ensure the supremacy of one class over another. Government is not synonymous with justice.
  - FiveSquared 8y ago
    True, but it’s a nesscary evil man. Government is created for organizing a colleticve response. If their was a way to stop blatantly evil things like murder without the need for centralized power and centralized response, I’m all ears. Unfortunately, humans are hard-wired to create and maintain athority.
- moate 8y ago
  Let's just clear up my stance here: "I want to be able to create a fake identity online..." Fine. Great. Have at it! Privacy and anonymity, what marvels in this modern age! "...in order to evade the law while I commit crimes, or escape the law after my past crimes." Ehhhhh...this is a rough bit folks. Listen, you want to pitch full on class war, us vs the government "there is no just man working for the injustice of tyranny" sort of shit, that's fine. It's just that's the sort of shit that gets the government involved MUCH faster. I just feel a bit of subtlety might be better in the earlier goings. I understand that a knife can be used to make food or kill a man but you don't see most knife manufacturers advertising how quickly they can gut somebody for good reason. That's all I'm trying to say.
  - c22 8y ago
    But your stance is hyperbolic because the original poster didn't say they wanted anonymity so they could commit crimes, they said they appreciated the option to "leave their past behind". Presumably if one is "in the system" they've already been caught and punished for their crime. I totally understand the desire to be able to move forward without the cloud of your past looming over you, and to be honest, I imagine the ability to do so may increase someone's chances of living the remainder of their life in an upstanding manner. Also, as you must know, a disturbingly large proportion of "ex-cons" have trumped up charges on their record or were even completely innocent as our modern judicial systems prioritize efficiency over truth.

13of40 8y ago

I was just thinking something along that vein last night: I was watching Stanley Kubrick's Barry Lyndon and early on there's a part where the main character deserts from the British Army by stealing the horse, uniform, and identity papers of an officer. The identity papers were the interesting part, because it was before photographs, so presumably the only biometric information they contained could have been height, hair color, etc. Once we got photographs, they must have had a huge chilling effect on that sort of thing, much like the spectre of facial recognition that we're facing today, but it's one that's already come and gone. (And by "gone" I mean "wedged itself so firmly in the status quo that we never think about it".)

scelerat 8y ago
40-year spoiler: Barry is caught because although his papers pass muster with his Prussian escort, his story does not. After conversation over beers, Captain Potzdorf sniffs out Lyndon's BS stories quite easily. It would be interesting to know what "identity papers" consisted of in 1760. Biometrics are one thing, but they are not the only thing. Funny -- I watched Barry Lyndon last night, too.
- paganel 8y ago
  Funny thing, I was this close of re-watching Barry Lyndon with my gf last night too, but instead we chose the Incredibles 2, and I also read today this very interesting article from the Economist on the concept of identity: https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2018/12/18/establishing-identity-is-a-vital-risky-and-changing-business https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2018/12/18/esta...
  - tomcam 8y ago
    That is one wide-ranging, apparently well-researched article. Not a fan of the Economist but I think I need to revisit my prejudice. Thank you.
a3n 8y ago
Lois XVI, trying to escape the revolution, was recognized by his image on a form of paper money. In effect, he had sent wanted posters all over the country. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Varennes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Varennes

KineticLensman 8y ago

The idea that improving technology will make it impossible to 'leave your past behind' is a key plot point in the 1989 SF book 'The Boat of a Million Years' by Poul Anderson [0] <spoiler> The story concerns people who are effectively immortal barring death by massive injury. They don't age and often face ostracism or worse by superstitious or resentful neighbours / friends / children. They frequently (re)use the obvious solution - moving on and assuming a new identity - many times over 2000 years of different episodes. However, this becomes untenable and they eventually reveal their identity to a population that is itself becoming long-lived due to improved medical technology. It's a great read and one of those that illustrates the fact that good SF writers can often write extremely good historical novels. Many of its historical episodes are superb interpretations of periods of history that nowadays aren't particularly well known., e.g. in the post-Roman near east. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boat_of_a_Million_Years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boat_of_a_Million_Years

usrusr 8y ago
> e.g. in the post-Roman near east. Oh, that's the big one in terms of environments underserved by historical fiction. Any chance we can get Stephenson to get obsessed with it?
signa11 8y ago
oh, there is a movie on similar lines called "the man from earth" where the protagonist claims to have survived for 15 or so millennia. to keep others from realizing that he doesn't age, he moves every decade or so...

iseeyoubydesign 8y ago

I hate it , at what point does the word "real" mean when you cant tell the difference? This is not helpful at all

porpoisely 8y ago

I had the same concern as you. But I figured it would take space travel to escape our past and our identities. But this AI does offer us alternatives until space travel becomes a reality.

robotresearcher 8y ago

The article is about synthesizing images of nonexistent people, not making fakes of real people. Imaginary people have no effect on your anonymity.

Just_Smith 8y ago
Except when upload a fake image as your profile picture. Facial detection algorithms are some of the most refined ML algorithms today. There are already plenty of social media sites that check profile pictures for the presence of a face, and Facebook goes as far as figuring out which face is yours.