11 ms·

China Cracks Down on Churches

207 points by traderjane 8y ago

thereare5lights 8y ago
What's with articles relating to social issues in the US getting flagged but not Chinese ones? Chinese lives matter but black lives don't?
whitecatexport 8y ago
China cracks down on 2000-year old invisible friends brain virus, as they should
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  They're simply cracking down on a particular brand of being staunchly non-aligned with their totalitarian vision of reality. Which is probably exactly what you dislike about Christianity, that total claim to truth, and converting or murdering people in the past, right? So why gloat when now people get persecuted who aren't persecuting others? Because they carry the same "brain virus" as people who did in the past, as people you can't get at because it's in the past? Demonstrating apathy to murderers in the present, using a shallow similarity of the victims to murderers of the past to even laud them, is completely incoherent, and morally bankrupt.
  - mmirate 8y ago
    Humanity isn't yet omniscient; therefore, no-one should hold a total claim to truth in the way that either authoritarians or religions do. Therefore I have sympathy for neither of the parties involved in the events described by this article.
    - PavlovsCat 8y ago
      > He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. You and those who flagged it off the front page like a brick could maybe ponder that... especially considering that you're hellbanned, by the way. I had to vouch for your comment to be able to reply to it. You've been disappeared without even being informed of it. May that inform your moral compass however it may.
- monochromatic 8y ago
  \>government tells subjects what they are allowed to believe Less good.
- dang 8y ago
  We've banned this account for trolling. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jxi 8y ago
How does news like this even get out of the country with the information controls in place?
- saagarjha 8y ago
  China’s information control, while extensive, is not nearly effective enough to suppress news like this. It’s the same reason we hear of human rights abuses happening in the country.
- adtac 8y ago
  You just need one person to leak it (or 2-3, if you care about journalistic integrity and receive the information from multiple sources). Remember, you don't need true cryptography -- you just need to get information out. It's okay to violate kerckhoff's principle and have a scheme that's dependent on the algorithm itself so that the government can't automatically decrypt your data. Like using obscure steganography. You might be discovered later, but once the information is out, it's out.
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    It's the communication version of diffusion. It's also what makes things like "Secret societies", and massive conspiracies to be so damned hard to maintain. Information in a high level area wants to equalize to lower levels.
- tivert 8y ago
  > How does news like this even get out of the country with the information controls in place? China isn't North Korea. There's a lot of travel of both Westerners and Chinese into and out of China, and free-ish communication between them. Within China, you can talk about many things privately without having to worry about the police showing up. The government's big red lines are public advocacy and especially political organization. https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/randomized-experimental-study-censorship-china https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/randomized-experiment... Fear No Evil by Natan Sharansky describes a similar situation in the Soviet Union: https://www.amazon.com/Fear-No-Evil-Natan-Sharansky/dp/1891620029/ https://www.amazon.com/Fear-No-Evil-Natan-Sharansky/dp/18916.... (As in aside, is there a Chinese translation?)
lgleason 8y ago
This is why we need to sever economic ties with China. The more we support this the worse this type of thing will intensify, including beyond China's borders....and it won't stop at just Christianity, they have targeted Islam and, Buddhists etc. as well.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- greeneggs 8y ago
  Why will severing economic ties change it either way? Do you just mean as a matter of principle we should sanction China, or do you think it will be an effective impulse for change?
  - tivert 8y ago
    One common refrain is that trade has massive material benefits to all parties engaged in it, but when one party is engaged in immoral behavior, one has to question if one wants to strengthen them with those benefits. Personally, I think a unilateral severing of economic ties would be extremely counterproductive. However, I think eliminating the policy compartmentalization between trade and human rights issues should be seriously considered. Basic democratic representation and de jure and de facto protection of basic human rights (or at least concrete and verifiable steps towards that goal) should be fundamental requirements for having an open trading relationship with any country. Then it's up the the human-rights abusing country to make the choice about whether it wants to trade or not. My understanding is that many of these trading relationships were liberalized with the idea that trade would bring political liberalization and human rights with it. That idea has been shown to be false, so policy that's based on it should be reconsidered.
  - lgleason 8y ago
    both. I doubt it will stop it in China directly, but if you continue to support them economically this is more likely to spread as they gain more global influence. Ideally there should be none, but if you can't have that containment is the next best thing otherwise you expose a larger population to it.
saagarjha 8y ago
Regardless of your faith (or lack thereof), I hope you agree that this is pretty horrible from a freedom of expression perspective :/
- dahidahi1 8y ago
  So if I get your drift, someday you'll support the "freedom of expression" of terrorists? The church is known to indulge in borderline terrorism, just fyi. This is at least in the case of India. We suffer it every single day.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    > The church is known to indulge in borderline terrorism, just fyi. This is at least in the case of India. What? Then prosecute, not persecute, in India.
    - dahidahi1 8y ago
      That is happening. The Church is extremely powerful & extremely rich. They are also a minority, which is Hindu majority India is a gold medal. Minorities are kings. I hope Christians will stop persecuting Hindus by playing victim at the drop of a hat. The church is known to fund the Naxalites, which has been a big terrorist force in North & North East India.
      - egeozcan 8y ago
        Terrorism is often motivated by religion, sure. But racism, nationalism and many other grounds for terrorism exist. You can't be suggesting that people who are peacefully trying to celebrate a holiday are terrorists. If you think that allowing them to gain power would end up with them supporting terrorists - welcome to the wonderful world of authoritarianism!
  - nyolfen 8y ago
    what is "borderline terrorism"? the churches in the article were targeted for criticizing corrupt officials, in china
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
openloop 8y ago
Good!
NedIsakoff 8y ago
Are you surprised? China suffered 20-30 million deaths under the "Brother of Christ". It does not want another "Brother" or "Sister"..
- 77pt77 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion For those not getting the reference,
  - starbeast 8y ago
    I did not get the reference and reading through, this is something I know very little about. Thank you for providing a link.
    - 77pt77 8y ago
      The fact that I only became acquainted with this so late in life is a testament to how provincial my education (and most people's) is.
dahidahi1 8y ago
Finally someone has the balls to call out what is a total & unequivocal anti-mankind force. I hope India & the Indian government grows the balls to do the same. The Church insults the native population & their ways, plays dirty politics, takes over temples & temple land illegally & is totally anti-India. The Catholic church in India is the second richest organization after the Government of India & all church priests are appointed by a foreign entity, the Vatican. Indians are a hapless lot to allow such direct flaunt of actions against Indian unity. When most of the world is seeing a reduction of Christianity, India is the new battle ground for missionaries to harvest souls. Many of these missionaries come illegally on tourist visas, visit tribal & backward places (some of my own acquaintances have admitted to this) & provide a material gift like a bag of rice or bread & convert them. That is exactly what happened to the missionary in the Sentinelese islands in the Indian ocean. People forget that Christianity is a desert cult, not fit for modern society. And they have the gall to call Hinduism & all eastern religions as evil!! TL;DR: Islam & Christianity are just two sides of the same coin. Both desert cults are poisonous & not fit for mankind.
- CapacitorSet 8y ago
  >Finally someone has the balls to call out what is a total & unequivocal anti-mankind force. That would be nice, but it's not the case of China. As the article mentions, the crackdown merely affects independent churches.
  - dahidahi1 8y ago
    IMO — There is no such thing as "independent" churches. It's a very big ecosystem, an ecosystem that has forced us to invent the word "Secularism". Not sure if you have forgotten...
    - geofft 8y ago
      Is your claim that "secularism" means that it's okay for China to have state-approved Christian churches? If not, can you state exactly what you mean, and whether you believe it's good for China to crack down on non-state-approved churches while also having state-approved churches?
tivert 8y ago
> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resistance among Christians.... > “If you see the police, national security or community workers greet them with gentleness,” Wen Hongbin, an elder at Xishuipang, told the congregation. “If they try to grab the microphone, I ask the brothers sitting in the front row to please stop them.” ... > Independent churches like Early Rain, with more than 500 members, have attracted large followings in recent years, especially among white-collar workers seeking an escape from rampant materialism at the center of modern Chinese life. > While sermons at state-sanctioned churches are often tightly scripted, independent churches boom with searing indictments of corrupt officials and rousing calls to protect the rights of the poor.... > “I saw injustices in society,” Mr. Gu said. “I saw that the government’s promotion of China as a just country that enforces laws in a civilized manner was all a lie.” > Worried for his own safety, Mr. Gu recently closed his business, hoping to avoid government scrutiny. He said he has grown fearful as he has watched the police arrest his friends. These people are much braver than I am, and I wish them peace and strength to overcome these trials.
- StevePerkins 8y ago
  > ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking, governments and ruling classes have used it for nearly two-thousand years to promote social order and subservience. It's been used to justify the Crusades, and slavery. Within living memory it's been used to justify Jim Crow laws, and the Salvation Army used as a tool against labor union organizing. It's been used to promote leftist regimes in Catholic South America, and the far-right "Protestant work ethic" class structure in the USA. It's been used everywhere to enforce a social order based on strict sexual norms and patriarchal gender roles. Christianity became one of the Top Two religions on earth, precisely because of how malleable it is. In other words, in practice, it tends to promote whatever the ruling class in a given place and time WANT it to promote. It's been that way since Emperor Constantine. So why try to violently suppress it? That's never been an effective strategy. Just co-opt it, and make it promote whatever Chinese/Confucian values you want like everyone else does.
intralizee 8y ago
Writing from the perspective of a person who literally had a life ruined by religious ideology impairing the mental judgement of parental figures. This is literally one of the best things I've read in my life. Going to be unpopular opinion because of people indoctrinated into freedom of expression but why not. Religious ideology has done more damage than terrorism to LGBT people. The result has lead to suicides and the law has done nothing to remedy the people abused. The people running the "faith" systems are nothing more than celebs to people who desire their fix and when it develops into a mental illness of pushing upon others.. people look the other way. Since "who has all the money" gets to keep the show running. No compassion exists in this world. Just agenda pushing by who has all the finances.
- xvilka 8y ago
  Not only LGBT, religion (not only Christianity) had done an enormous harm to women in all times (and still does).
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    The only religion that I can think of that doesnt do that is Wicca. Even Buddhists, along with Shakyamuni as this source, laid down much more restrictive rules for women adherents to Buddhism. Edit: go figure. Mention facts and you're -1'ed to currently -3. And it wasn't even demeaning or harassing.
    - starbeast 8y ago
      When I was young I served Yoshino-kimi, the granddaughter of Tōfukumon'in, a disciple of the imperial temple Hōkyō-ji. Recently she passed away, although I know that this is the law of nature, the transience of the world struck me deeply, and I became a nun. I cut my hair and dyed my robes black and went on pilgrimage to Edo. There I had an audience with the monk Haku-ō of the Obaku Zen sect. I recounted to him, such things as my deep devotion to Buddhism since childhood, but Haku-ō replied that although he could see my sincere intentions, I could not escape my womanly appearance. Therefore I heated up an iron and held it against my face, and then wrote as my brush led me: ... Formerly to amuse myself at court I would burn orchid incense; Now to enter the Zen life I burn my own face. The four seasons pass by naturally like this, But I don't know who I am amidst the change. ... In this living world the body I give up and burn would be wretched if I thought of myself as anything but firewood. - Ryōnen Gensō
theseadroid 8y ago
Why is this even on Hacker News? Does the majority of readers here have the expertise to comment on the matter?
- thereare5lights 8y ago
  I suspect there is a strain of anti-Chinese sentiments here. When you see articles relating to black social issues, they immediately get flagged, but articles like these always get through.
  - dang 8y ago
    There's no way for HN to be immune from macro trends. The macro trend right now, unfortunately, is polarization between China and the West. As I'm sure you've noticed, this has been manifesting dramatically in Western media over the past months. Since the audience here is mostly Western (50% US, 30% Europe, 7% Canada plus Australia, IIRC), it's inevitably going to identify more with one side than the other. We moderate HN to mitigate the worst aspects of this, but there's no hope of eliminating it. HN is controlled by its community. All that moderation can do is adjust the margins.
    - thereare5lights 8y ago
      You can absolutely eliminate it, you just don't want to because it would cost too much. I suppose macro trends would also explain why black social issues always get flagged on HN as well.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - dang 8y ago
        Eliminate a Western audience looking at things from a Western perspective? That is an excessive idea of what moderators can do. We are janitors.
somethingle234 8y ago
I'm not supporting China here, but the ideology "accepting all faith" is strange and, maybe, dangerous. Bible contains some cruel stories. But Christianity has a leader, which is Pope, who has ties with modern world and updates/rejects the stories from Bible, so it works decently enough with modern world. Other religions don't have that kinds of checks and balances. some religions just interpret whatever ancient books they have. They believe that every story in those books is true and should be practiced. The stories in the book might be abominable. But we are all like "We must accept all faiths".
- TheVikingOwain 8y ago
  The pope leads Catholics. As an Anglican, Methodist or God forbid (pun intended) a Quaker if the pope leads them and they’d get a good laugh. There are absolutely Protestant denominations that accept biblical stories as absolute truth.
  - somethingle234 8y ago
    I apologize for the inaccuracy. But I hope my point of "blindly" accepting all faiths is understood.
    - TheVikingOwain 8y ago
      No worries, I just thought some clarification was in order.
- KaoruAoiShiho 8y ago
  People need to be open to the idea that they're wrong, even atheists. Monocultures where other people are forced to accept your values create stagnation and dangers long term. There have been plenty of evil committed in the name of enforcing that which is righteous: communism, religions of all types, even democracy. It's better to let people have the freedom to make their own choices. You can choose to learn from them or reject to them, but applying pressure to change them is def incorrect imo.
ghobs91 8y ago
This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, based entirely on their experiences in the US. The Christians in China are very brave for standing by their faith, and I wish them luck and peace.
- abnry 8y ago
  Yes, I am gobsmacked by their bravery. And as a Christian myself, I am amazed by how they root their bravery in their faith, and not in some idea of social justice. The lead pastor wrote a letter going into this (published after he was detained): http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-of-faithful-disobedience http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-...
- kadendogthing 8y ago
  >This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, Literally no one does this. Western Christians are incapable of facing persecution in the current social and economic climate. This is because Christians by and large make up every pillar of Western society. It has nothing to do with someone being a Christian else where in the world. The sentiment you are attempting to inaccurately portray is rooted in the fact that you have silly things like the "War on Christmas" and actual citizens (who are Christians) complaining that obeying the constitution and not imposing their religion on others is somehow equivalent to persecution. Your conflation of the two is your own error, not others.
  - ghobs91 8y ago
    I agree with you that the "war on Christmas" stuff is nonsense, but you'd be surprised at how many people write off Christian persecution, based solely on the fact that some of the most powerful nations in the world are "Christian nations".
    - kadendogthing 8y ago
      I think you think people hold such opinions, not that they actually do. It's a really contrived point that comes up in these types of conversations. Feel free to link any kind of substantial material backing up the frequency of such opinions.
intellix 8y ago
A lie about adultery that just got way out of hand and is now being cracked down
lyrachord 8y ago
Stupy. China is in peace with religions during at least 2000 years. Why so many evils and devils after the Black century?
starbeast 8y ago
I'm a left wing atheist. While people like Dawkins and Hitchens may declare religion the root of all evil, I try to have some self awareness on the subject. I look at the 20th century and need only pick two names, Stalin and Mao, to find left wing atheism being drenched in blood. Killing for a dogma is the issue. And those who claim that religion is responsible for all misery are precious few philosophical steps away from doing exactly that. edit - for some perspective, here's Tony Benn on the many links between socialist ideologies and christianity. - https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/tony-benn-christianity-socialism-neighborly-love https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/tony-benn-christianity-social... edit2 - For another perspective, while the crackdown on christianity is harsh, the crackdown on muslims is next level. Which is odd on the face of it as muslims tend to be more left wing in practice than christians.
- rohit2412 8y ago
  I dont think new atheism proponents like Dawkins and hitchens propose religious persecution like communists. Looking for social change towards atheism, like a third-wave atheism is very different from imposing atheism on people.
  - starbeast 8y ago
    They don't propose it explicitly, they just lead people to it. Once you have started believing that religion is the root of all evil, you do not have to travel very far at all to find yourself persecuting the religious. The position they espouse isn't just a serious logical mistake, it is a terrible moral one.
    - rohit2412 8y ago
      Then you also lead people to theocracy. There are positions one can take between "all religions are peaceful, good, and true", and "kill the religious"
      - starbeast 8y ago
        You don't lead people to theocracy by warning against killing for dogma. On the other hand, creating dogmas about religion being the source of all evil can have pretty awful consequences. There isn't a simple road between the two positions you gave, there is an entire territory.
julienreszka 8y ago
That's how the one party rule will eventually end. Chinese trolls will probably downvote this comment into oblivion.
- tree_of_item 8y ago
  I don't consider myself a Chinese troll, but I'm going to downvote you for trying to guilt people out of downvoting you.
- dang 8y ago
  This comment breaks the site guidelines. Please read them—all of them—and follow them if you want to keep posting here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
rasengan 8y ago
I can’t believe the people’s names were exposed. I hope those were pseudonymns.
- Guereric 8y ago
  I was surprised by this and the amount of detail regarding the workarounds by the local dissenters. Nowhere in the article did it state that PII was masked. I wonder if the assumption is that, all the descriptions in the article are already known to the CCP.
jeswin 8y ago
I participate in Christian festivities and find them quite joyful. It's a wonderful time of the year for most of the world. However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. Many countries have laws against various forms of deception - and religion straddles that line (of deception) so often. If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" rather than against the "mislead", the ethicality of such action is quite defensible.
- friedman23 8y ago
  > However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. This isn't a democratic country, so you should rephrase your statement justifying this as "whether an authoritarian cabal should allow the propagation of a religion and mythology is entirely up to them" A person's beliefs are up to them not their government.
  - jeswin 8y ago
    > A person's beliefs are up to them not their government Even democracies have rules against false advertising. We've chosen to give religion a free pass here, though the evidence to back any of its claims is quite flimsy. This subject is somewhat tough to debate. I had a wonderful Christmas day, though I'm not a believer.
  - 13of40 8y ago
    > A person's beliefs are up to them not their government. How do you square that with the fact that most religious people were indoctrinated at an early age by their relatives and community, rather than developing their beliefs on their own? At the end of the day, it's not a struggle for freedom versus government control, it's a struggle over who gets to do the indoctrinating.
- cslarson 8y ago
  I am terrified of you and your monopoly on truth.
21 8y ago
The Western imperialistic view of the world is not the only correct one. We should have a multi-polar world, where China and Russia also get to impose their views and values.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  Impose? Is that really the word you wanted to use?
raverbashing 8y ago
This hasn't started today, most forms of religious organizations were already heavily supervised in China
RyanShook 8y ago
The paradox is that the more the government cracks down on Christianity, the more it will likely flourish.
- chillacy 8y ago
  Why do you think that’s true? China has cracked down on: democracy in the 80s, Falun Gong, Tibet, Islam, and now Christianity. None of the previous groups have “flourished” yet. Some have basically died, others had to go abroad to survive, none are mainstream in China l.
  - d0100 8y ago
    Tell that to Nero. Haha
  - therealdrag0 8y ago
    History is unpredictable, but Christianity has a long tradition of persecution, with even a lot of primary texts (Bible) supporting it, so it is an expected/welcomed experience. This can give the followers a lot of strength under persecution. Examples: 2 Timothy 3:12 - "Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted," John 15:18 - “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you." Or just think of the story of Jesus; when the main character(s) in your religion gets beaten and killed, the followers really feel like they're on the right path when it happens to them too.
    - chillacy 8y ago
      That's pretty convincing, christianity has been around for a lot longer than the CCP, so by the Lindy effect we would expect it to outlive the CCP.
jhcl 8y ago
Somehow it is easier to be ignorant and believe something happens to you you can't do anything about. There's no problem in that, everyone has a right to live his/her way as long as it doesn't disturb other peoples right to do so. The problem are the troublemakers that set themselves at the head of those sects and mess things up for those who happen to choose a different mindset.
40acres 8y ago
Does China have a state religion? Seems like the government clamps down on all of the major religions, is it a secular culture?
- spinach 8y ago
  China is secular, for them it's about the 'power of the people' and community.
- tivert 8y ago
  > Does China have a state religion? Seems like the government clamps down on all of the major religions, is it a secular culture? A somewhat tongue in cheek take is: China's state religion is Communism and it's state Church is the Communist Party of China. All of its leaders, officials, and people are required to study Communism and pay lip service to it, whether the believe it or not. However, no one there can take Communism too seriously, because the party's real religion is that of centralized power and submission to it: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/asia/china-student-activists.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/asia/china-student-...
nkkollaw 8y ago
In Poland during Communism people would ask each other in church: "oh, I didn't know you were Catholic?", "I'm not. I'm against Communism".
newnewpdro 8y ago
Good riddance.
- dang 8y ago
  Religious flamewar is not ok here. Please don't post like this to HN again. More generally, please don't post unsubstantive comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
levifromhungary 8y ago
Underground churches are stronger every time they are persecuted. Success, prosperity are much more dangerous for most of the christian churches in the western world.
coliveira 8y ago
I see that the growth of China is driving Americans nuts, and they are trying to manufacture all kinds of ridiculous reasons to hate the Chinese, and not disclose that their reason number one is envy. The situation of religion in China is much better nowadays than it was ever before. A few decades ago the Chinese government would incarcerate anyone who propagated religion in the country, and nowadays must religions can be practiced as long as they orderly register with the government. The fact that a big newspaper complains about this issue after many years of progress shows that they are trying to feed the ideas of religious bigots in America who claim persecution daily, while trying themselves to persecute the ideas that they don't agree with. I find this completely appalling.
- okatsu 8y ago
  I dunno, the South China Morning Post reported on China essentially phasing out Islam [1], and that's on top of their ethnic cleansing with the Uyghur. 1: https://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2145939/how-china-trying-impose-islam-chinese-characteristics https://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2145...
levifromhungary 8y ago
Underground churches are getting stronger every time they are persecuted. Wealth and prosperity are much more dangerous for most of the christian churches in the western world.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
The fish is a symbol for Christianity precisely because of its long history of being forbidden. The Greek word for fish is an acronym for, iirc, Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit. (That's from memory from taking two classes of Greek in the Bible Belt more than 20 years ago. I think I googled it recently and got something that did not include Holy Spirit.) It seems to me the Christian tradition of being a persecuted religion makes it well suited to fostering an underground movement in an oppressive climate. I imagine this is the Crux of the issue, both a reason it appeals and a reason the government is trying to shut it down. I'm seeing some remarks in comments that don't fit my understanding of the history. Christianity spread in part because it was very open to embracing local customs. This is why we have an Easter Bunny and Santa Claus associated with major Christian religious holidays. Jesus also said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." Iirc, he was talking about paying taxes. So, on the one hand, it's a subversive religion. On the other hand, it's a religion that is flexible and not absolutist. It can coexist with a lot of other things. Jesus himself was subversive. Among other things, he overturned the tables of the money changers because he was offended that this was at the church. The biblical stories thus contain information about how to engage in nonviolent resistance. Again, this may be a big part of the appeal. Is there much difference between saving your soul and saving you from tyranny and oppression?
sverige 8y ago
This statement by Wang Yi is instructive. http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-of-faithful-disobedience http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-...
intralizeee 8y ago
“Writing from the perspective of a person who literally had a life ruined by religious ideology impairing the mental judgement of parental figures. This is literally one of the best things I've read in my life. Going to be unpopular opinion because of people indoctrinated into freedom of expression but why not. Religious ideology has done more damage than terrorism to LGBT people. The result has lead to suicides and the law has done nothing to remedy the people abused. The people running the "faith" systems are nothing more than celebs to people who desire their fix and when it develops into a mental illness of pushing upon others.. people look the other way. Since "who has all the money" gets to keep the show running. No compassion exists in this world. Just agenda pushing by who has all the finances.” Shouldn’t be flagged
- Fins 8y ago
  Communists ruined (often permanently and quite fatally) lives of far more people. And they don't like the LGBT tribe much either. Short of this being a harbinger of the last communist being hanged with the guts of the last christian (with apologies to Voltaire) very soon, I fail to see how this could be "one of the best things I've read in my life".
marknadal 8y ago
Why was this kicked off #1 of homepage and now can't be found but by direct link?
- tivert 8y ago
  Because some people are filled with spite, and the mods probably don't want to spend Christmas moderating their flames.
- dang 8y ago
  Nationalistic and religious flamewar are not only off topic here, they give off toxic fumes that poison the community. We put a lot of effort into trying not to let such forces destroy this place. When indignation goes into the red, intellectual curiosity is the first casualty, so the mandate of the site requires moderation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
upofadown 8y ago
Down at the bottom of the article: >While sermons at state-sanctioned churches are often tightly scripted, independent churches boom with searing indictments of corrupt officials and rousing calls to protect the rights of the poor. >Early Rain, which Mr. Wang founded in 2008, was among the most daring. Mr. Wang called Mr. Xi a sinner, held prayer sessions each year to mark the brutal crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrations around Tiananmen Square in Beijing in 1989, and organized a fund to support relatives of political prisoners in China. So just good old fashioned suppression of political dissent. The fact that they were churches could be entirely irrelevant.

207 points by traderjane 8y ago

What's with articles relating to social issues in the US getting flagged but not Chinese ones? Chinese lives matter but black lives don't?

whitecatexport 8y ago

China cracks down on 2000-year old invisible friends brain virus, as they should

PavlovsCat 8y ago
They're simply cracking down on a particular brand of being staunchly non-aligned with their totalitarian vision of reality. Which is probably exactly what you dislike about Christianity, that total claim to truth, and converting or murdering people in the past, right? So why gloat when now people get persecuted who aren't persecuting others? Because they carry the same "brain virus" as people who did in the past, as people you can't get at because it's in the past? Demonstrating apathy to murderers in the present, using a shallow similarity of the victims to murderers of the past to even laud them, is completely incoherent, and morally bankrupt.
- mmirate 8y ago
  Humanity isn't yet omniscient; therefore, no-one should hold a total claim to truth in the way that either authoritarians or religions do. Therefore I have sympathy for neither of the parties involved in the events described by this article.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    > He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. You and those who flagged it off the front page like a brick could maybe ponder that... especially considering that you're hellbanned, by the way. I had to vouch for your comment to be able to reply to it. You've been disappeared without even being informed of it. May that inform your moral compass however it may.
monochromatic 8y ago
\>government tells subjects what they are allowed to believe Less good.
dang 8y ago
We've banned this account for trolling. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jxi 8y ago

How does news like this even get out of the country with the information controls in place?

saagarjha 8y ago
China’s information control, while extensive, is not nearly effective enough to suppress news like this. It’s the same reason we hear of human rights abuses happening in the country.
adtac 8y ago
You just need one person to leak it (or 2-3, if you care about journalistic integrity and receive the information from multiple sources). Remember, you don't need true cryptography -- you just need to get information out. It's okay to violate kerckhoff's principle and have a scheme that's dependent on the algorithm itself so that the government can't automatically decrypt your data. Like using obscure steganography. You might be discovered later, but once the information is out, it's out.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  It's the communication version of diffusion. It's also what makes things like "Secret societies", and massive conspiracies to be so damned hard to maintain. Information in a high level area wants to equalize to lower levels.
tivert 8y ago
> How does news like this even get out of the country with the information controls in place? China isn't North Korea. There's a lot of travel of both Westerners and Chinese into and out of China, and free-ish communication between them. Within China, you can talk about many things privately without having to worry about the police showing up. The government's big red lines are public advocacy and especially political organization. https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/randomized-experimental-study-censorship-china https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/randomized-experiment... Fear No Evil by Natan Sharansky describes a similar situation in the Soviet Union: https://www.amazon.com/Fear-No-Evil-Natan-Sharansky/dp/1891620029/ https://www.amazon.com/Fear-No-Evil-Natan-Sharansky/dp/18916.... (As in aside, is there a Chinese translation?)

lgleason 8y ago

This is why we need to sever economic ties with China. The more we support this the worse this type of thing will intensify, including beyond China's borders....and it won't stop at just Christianity, they have targeted Islam and, Buddhists etc. as well.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
greeneggs 8y ago
Why will severing economic ties change it either way? Do you just mean as a matter of principle we should sanction China, or do you think it will be an effective impulse for change?
- tivert 8y ago
  One common refrain is that trade has massive material benefits to all parties engaged in it, but when one party is engaged in immoral behavior, one has to question if one wants to strengthen them with those benefits. Personally, I think a unilateral severing of economic ties would be extremely counterproductive. However, I think eliminating the policy compartmentalization between trade and human rights issues should be seriously considered. Basic democratic representation and de jure and de facto protection of basic human rights (or at least concrete and verifiable steps towards that goal) should be fundamental requirements for having an open trading relationship with any country. Then it's up the the human-rights abusing country to make the choice about whether it wants to trade or not. My understanding is that many of these trading relationships were liberalized with the idea that trade would bring political liberalization and human rights with it. That idea has been shown to be false, so policy that's based on it should be reconsidered.
- lgleason 8y ago
  both. I doubt it will stop it in China directly, but if you continue to support them economically this is more likely to spread as they gain more global influence. Ideally there should be none, but if you can't have that containment is the next best thing otherwise you expose a larger population to it.

saagarjha 8y ago

Regardless of your faith (or lack thereof), I hope you agree that this is pretty horrible from a freedom of expression perspective :/

dahidahi1 8y ago
So if I get your drift, someday you'll support the "freedom of expression" of terrorists? The church is known to indulge in borderline terrorism, just fyi. This is at least in the case of India. We suffer it every single day.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > The church is known to indulge in borderline terrorism, just fyi. This is at least in the case of India. What? Then prosecute, not persecute, in India.
  - dahidahi1 8y ago
    That is happening. The Church is extremely powerful & extremely rich. They are also a minority, which is Hindu majority India is a gold medal. Minorities are kings. I hope Christians will stop persecuting Hindus by playing victim at the drop of a hat. The church is known to fund the Naxalites, which has been a big terrorist force in North & North East India.
    - egeozcan 8y ago
      Terrorism is often motivated by religion, sure. But racism, nationalism and many other grounds for terrorism exist. You can't be suggesting that people who are peacefully trying to celebrate a holiday are terrorists. If you think that allowing them to gain power would end up with them supporting terrorists - welcome to the wonderful world of authoritarianism!
- nyolfen 8y ago
  what is "borderline terrorism"? the churches in the article were targeted for criticizing corrupt officials, in china

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

openloop 8y ago

Good!

NedIsakoff 8y ago

Are you surprised? China suffered 20-30 million deaths under the "Brother of Christ". It does not want another "Brother" or "Sister"..

77pt77 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion For those not getting the reference,
- starbeast 8y ago
  I did not get the reference and reading through, this is something I know very little about. Thank you for providing a link.
  - 77pt77 8y ago
    The fact that I only became acquainted with this so late in life is a testament to how provincial my education (and most people's) is.

dahidahi1 8y ago

Finally someone has the balls to call out what is a total & unequivocal anti-mankind force. I hope India & the Indian government grows the balls to do the same. The Church insults the native population & their ways, plays dirty politics, takes over temples & temple land illegally & is totally anti-India. The Catholic church in India is the second richest organization after the Government of India & all church priests are appointed by a foreign entity, the Vatican. Indians are a hapless lot to allow such direct flaunt of actions against Indian unity. When most of the world is seeing a reduction of Christianity, India is the new battle ground for missionaries to harvest souls. Many of these missionaries come illegally on tourist visas, visit tribal & backward places (some of my own acquaintances have admitted to this) & provide a material gift like a bag of rice or bread & convert them. That is exactly what happened to the missionary in the Sentinelese islands in the Indian ocean. People forget that Christianity is a desert cult, not fit for modern society. And they have the gall to call Hinduism & all eastern religions as evil!! TL;DR: Islam & Christianity are just two sides of the same coin. Both desert cults are poisonous & not fit for mankind.

CapacitorSet 8y ago
>Finally someone has the balls to call out what is a total & unequivocal anti-mankind force. That would be nice, but it's not the case of China. As the article mentions, the crackdown merely affects independent churches.
- dahidahi1 8y ago
  IMO — There is no such thing as "independent" churches. It's a very big ecosystem, an ecosystem that has forced us to invent the word "Secularism". Not sure if you have forgotten...
  - geofft 8y ago
    Is your claim that "secularism" means that it's okay for China to have state-approved Christian churches? If not, can you state exactly what you mean, and whether you believe it's good for China to crack down on non-state-approved churches while also having state-approved churches?

tivert 8y ago

> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government and Mr. Xi’s embrace of traditional Chinese culture and Confucian teachings that emphasize obedience and order. > But the government’s heavy-handed efforts to obliterate several high-profile churches have been met with resistance among Christians.... > “If you see the police, national security or community workers greet them with gentleness,” Wen Hongbin, an elder at Xishuipang, told the congregation. “If they try to grab the microphone, I ask the brothers sitting in the front row to please stop them.” ... > Independent churches like Early Rain, with more than 500 members, have attracted large followings in recent years, especially among white-collar workers seeking an escape from rampant materialism at the center of modern Chinese life. > While sermons at state-sanctioned churches are often tightly scripted, independent churches boom with searing indictments of corrupt officials and rousing calls to protect the rights of the poor.... > “I saw injustices in society,” Mr. Gu said. “I saw that the government’s promotion of China as a just country that enforces laws in a civilized manner was all a lie.” > Worried for his own safety, Mr. Gu recently closed his business, hoping to avoid government scrutiny. He said he has grown fearful as he has watched the police arrest his friends. These people are much braver than I am, and I wish them peace and strength to overcome these trials.

StevePerkins 8y ago
> ...Christianity, which by some estimates is China’s fastest-growing religion, promotes Western values and ideals like human rights that conflict with the aims of China’s authoritarian government This is the part that confuses me. I'm not sure what Christianity intrinsically promotes (ask 12 Christians and I suspect you'll receive 13 conflicting opinions). But practically speaking, governments and ruling classes have used it for nearly two-thousand years to promote social order and subservience. It's been used to justify the Crusades, and slavery. Within living memory it's been used to justify Jim Crow laws, and the Salvation Army used as a tool against labor union organizing. It's been used to promote leftist regimes in Catholic South America, and the far-right "Protestant work ethic" class structure in the USA. It's been used everywhere to enforce a social order based on strict sexual norms and patriarchal gender roles. Christianity became one of the Top Two religions on earth, precisely because of how malleable it is. In other words, in practice, it tends to promote whatever the ruling class in a given place and time WANT it to promote. It's been that way since Emperor Constantine. So why try to violently suppress it? That's never been an effective strategy. Just co-opt it, and make it promote whatever Chinese/Confucian values you want like everyone else does.

intralizee 8y ago

Writing from the perspective of a person who literally had a life ruined by religious ideology impairing the mental judgement of parental figures. This is literally one of the best things I've read in my life. Going to be unpopular opinion because of people indoctrinated into freedom of expression but why not. Religious ideology has done more damage than terrorism to LGBT people. The result has lead to suicides and the law has done nothing to remedy the people abused. The people running the "faith" systems are nothing more than celebs to people who desire their fix and when it develops into a mental illness of pushing upon others.. people look the other way. Since "who has all the money" gets to keep the show running. No compassion exists in this world. Just agenda pushing by who has all the finances.

xvilka 8y ago
Not only LGBT, religion (not only Christianity) had done an enormous harm to women in all times (and still does).
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  The only religion that I can think of that doesnt do that is Wicca. Even Buddhists, along with Shakyamuni as this source, laid down much more restrictive rules for women adherents to Buddhism. Edit: go figure. Mention facts and you're -1'ed to currently -3. And it wasn't even demeaning or harassing.
  - starbeast 8y ago
    When I was young I served Yoshino-kimi, the granddaughter of Tōfukumon'in, a disciple of the imperial temple Hōkyō-ji. Recently she passed away, although I know that this is the law of nature, the transience of the world struck me deeply, and I became a nun. I cut my hair and dyed my robes black and went on pilgrimage to Edo. There I had an audience with the monk Haku-ō of the Obaku Zen sect. I recounted to him, such things as my deep devotion to Buddhism since childhood, but Haku-ō replied that although he could see my sincere intentions, I could not escape my womanly appearance. Therefore I heated up an iron and held it against my face, and then wrote as my brush led me: ... Formerly to amuse myself at court I would burn orchid incense; Now to enter the Zen life I burn my own face. The four seasons pass by naturally like this, But I don't know who I am amidst the change. ... In this living world the body I give up and burn would be wretched if I thought of myself as anything but firewood. - Ryōnen Gensō

theseadroid 8y ago

Why is this even on Hacker News? Does the majority of readers here have the expertise to comment on the matter?

thereare5lights 8y ago
I suspect there is a strain of anti-Chinese sentiments here. When you see articles relating to black social issues, they immediately get flagged, but articles like these always get through.
- dang 8y ago
  There's no way for HN to be immune from macro trends. The macro trend right now, unfortunately, is polarization between China and the West. As I'm sure you've noticed, this has been manifesting dramatically in Western media over the past months. Since the audience here is mostly Western (50% US, 30% Europe, 7% Canada plus Australia, IIRC), it's inevitably going to identify more with one side than the other. We moderate HN to mitigate the worst aspects of this, but there's no hope of eliminating it. HN is controlled by its community. All that moderation can do is adjust the margins.
  - thereare5lights 8y ago
    You can absolutely eliminate it, you just don't want to because it would cost too much. I suppose macro trends would also explain why black social issues always get flagged on HN as well.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - dang 8y ago
      Eliminate a Western audience looking at things from a Western perspective? That is an excessive idea of what moderators can do. We are janitors.

somethingle234 8y ago

I'm not supporting China here, but the ideology "accepting all faith" is strange and, maybe, dangerous. Bible contains some cruel stories. But Christianity has a leader, which is Pope, who has ties with modern world and updates/rejects the stories from Bible, so it works decently enough with modern world. Other religions don't have that kinds of checks and balances. some religions just interpret whatever ancient books they have. They believe that every story in those books is true and should be practiced. The stories in the book might be abominable. But we are all like "We must accept all faiths".

TheVikingOwain 8y ago
The pope leads Catholics. As an Anglican, Methodist or God forbid (pun intended) a Quaker if the pope leads them and they’d get a good laugh. There are absolutely Protestant denominations that accept biblical stories as absolute truth.
- somethingle234 8y ago
  I apologize for the inaccuracy. But I hope my point of "blindly" accepting all faiths is understood.
  - TheVikingOwain 8y ago
    No worries, I just thought some clarification was in order.
KaoruAoiShiho 8y ago
People need to be open to the idea that they're wrong, even atheists. Monocultures where other people are forced to accept your values create stagnation and dangers long term. There have been plenty of evil committed in the name of enforcing that which is righteous: communism, religions of all types, even democracy. It's better to let people have the freedom to make their own choices. You can choose to learn from them or reject to them, but applying pressure to change them is def incorrect imo.

ghobs91 8y ago

This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, based entirely on their experiences in the US. The Christians in China are very brave for standing by their faith, and I wish them luck and peace.

abnry 8y ago
Yes, I am gobsmacked by their bravery. And as a Christian myself, I am amazed by how they root their bravery in their faith, and not in some idea of social justice. The lead pastor wrote a letter going into this (published after he was detained): http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-of-faithful-disobedience http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-...
kadendogthing 8y ago
>This is why it's frustrating when some make it seem that Christians are incapable of facing persecution, Literally no one does this. Western Christians are incapable of facing persecution in the current social and economic climate. This is because Christians by and large make up every pillar of Western society. It has nothing to do with someone being a Christian else where in the world. The sentiment you are attempting to inaccurately portray is rooted in the fact that you have silly things like the "War on Christmas" and actual citizens (who are Christians) complaining that obeying the constitution and not imposing their religion on others is somehow equivalent to persecution. Your conflation of the two is your own error, not others.
- ghobs91 8y ago
  I agree with you that the "war on Christmas" stuff is nonsense, but you'd be surprised at how many people write off Christian persecution, based solely on the fact that some of the most powerful nations in the world are "Christian nations".
  - kadendogthing 8y ago
    I think you think people hold such opinions, not that they actually do. It's a really contrived point that comes up in these types of conversations. Feel free to link any kind of substantial material backing up the frequency of such opinions.

intellix 8y ago

A lie about adultery that just got way out of hand and is now being cracked down

lyrachord 8y ago

Stupy. China is in peace with religions during at least 2000 years. Why so many evils and devils after the Black century?

starbeast 8y ago

I'm a left wing atheist. While people like Dawkins and Hitchens may declare religion the root of all evil, I try to have some self awareness on the subject. I look at the 20th century and need only pick two names, Stalin and Mao, to find left wing atheism being drenched in blood. Killing for a dogma is the issue. And those who claim that religion is responsible for all misery are precious few philosophical steps away from doing exactly that. edit - for some perspective, here's Tony Benn on the many links between socialist ideologies and christianity. - https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/tony-benn-christianity-socialism-neighborly-love https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/tony-benn-christianity-social... edit2 - For another perspective, while the crackdown on christianity is harsh, the crackdown on muslims is next level. Which is odd on the face of it as muslims tend to be more left wing in practice than christians.

rohit2412 8y ago
I dont think new atheism proponents like Dawkins and hitchens propose religious persecution like communists. Looking for social change towards atheism, like a third-wave atheism is very different from imposing atheism on people.
- starbeast 8y ago
  They don't propose it explicitly, they just lead people to it. Once you have started believing that religion is the root of all evil, you do not have to travel very far at all to find yourself persecuting the religious. The position they espouse isn't just a serious logical mistake, it is a terrible moral one.
  - rohit2412 8y ago
    Then you also lead people to theocracy. There are positions one can take between "all religions are peaceful, good, and true", and "kill the religious"
    - starbeast 8y ago
      You don't lead people to theocracy by warning against killing for dogma. On the other hand, creating dogmas about religion being the source of all evil can have pretty awful consequences. There isn't a simple road between the two positions you gave, there is an entire territory.

julienreszka 8y ago

That's how the one party rule will eventually end. Chinese trolls will probably downvote this comment into oblivion.

tree_of_item 8y ago
I don't consider myself a Chinese troll, but I'm going to downvote you for trying to guilt people out of downvoting you.
dang 8y ago
This comment breaks the site guidelines. Please read them—all of them—and follow them if you want to keep posting here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

rasengan 8y ago

I can’t believe the people’s names were exposed. I hope those were pseudonymns.

Guereric 8y ago
I was surprised by this and the amount of detail regarding the workarounds by the local dissenters. Nowhere in the article did it state that PII was masked. I wonder if the assumption is that, all the descriptions in the article are already known to the CCP.

jeswin 8y ago

I participate in Christian festivities and find them quite joyful. It's a wonderful time of the year for most of the world. However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. Many countries have laws against various forms of deception - and religion straddles that line (of deception) so often. If action is being taken against the people who propagate "falsety" rather than against the "mislead", the ethicality of such action is quite defensible.

friedman23 8y ago
> However, whether countries should allow the propogation of religion and mythology is entirely up to them. This isn't a democratic country, so you should rephrase your statement justifying this as "whether an authoritarian cabal should allow the propagation of a religion and mythology is entirely up to them" A person's beliefs are up to them not their government.
- jeswin 8y ago
  > A person's beliefs are up to them not their government Even democracies have rules against false advertising. We've chosen to give religion a free pass here, though the evidence to back any of its claims is quite flimsy. This subject is somewhat tough to debate. I had a wonderful Christmas day, though I'm not a believer.
- 13of40 8y ago
  > A person's beliefs are up to them not their government. How do you square that with the fact that most religious people were indoctrinated at an early age by their relatives and community, rather than developing their beliefs on their own? At the end of the day, it's not a struggle for freedom versus government control, it's a struggle over who gets to do the indoctrinating.
cslarson 8y ago
I am terrified of you and your monopoly on truth.

21 8y ago

The Western imperialistic view of the world is not the only correct one. We should have a multi-polar world, where China and Russia also get to impose their views and values.

lostlogin 8y ago
Impose? Is that really the word you wanted to use?

raverbashing 8y ago

This hasn't started today, most forms of religious organizations were already heavily supervised in China

RyanShook 8y ago

The paradox is that the more the government cracks down on Christianity, the more it will likely flourish.

chillacy 8y ago
Why do you think that’s true? China has cracked down on: democracy in the 80s, Falun Gong, Tibet, Islam, and now Christianity. None of the previous groups have “flourished” yet. Some have basically died, others had to go abroad to survive, none are mainstream in China l.
- d0100 8y ago
  Tell that to Nero. Haha
- therealdrag0 8y ago
  History is unpredictable, but Christianity has a long tradition of persecution, with even a lot of primary texts (Bible) supporting it, so it is an expected/welcomed experience. This can give the followers a lot of strength under persecution. Examples: 2 Timothy 3:12 - "Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted," John 15:18 - “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you." Or just think of the story of Jesus; when the main character(s) in your religion gets beaten and killed, the followers really feel like they're on the right path when it happens to them too.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    That's pretty convincing, christianity has been around for a lot longer than the CCP, so by the Lindy effect we would expect it to outlive the CCP.

jhcl 8y ago

Somehow it is easier to be ignorant and believe something happens to you you can't do anything about. There's no problem in that, everyone has a right to live his/her way as long as it doesn't disturb other peoples right to do so. The problem are the troublemakers that set themselves at the head of those sects and mess things up for those who happen to choose a different mindset.

40acres 8y ago

Does China have a state religion? Seems like the government clamps down on all of the major religions, is it a secular culture?

spinach 8y ago
China is secular, for them it's about the 'power of the people' and community.
tivert 8y ago
> Does China have a state religion? Seems like the government clamps down on all of the major religions, is it a secular culture? A somewhat tongue in cheek take is: China's state religion is Communism and it's state Church is the Communist Party of China. All of its leaders, officials, and people are required to study Communism and pay lip service to it, whether the believe it or not. However, no one there can take Communism too seriously, because the party's real religion is that of centralized power and submission to it: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/asia/china-student-activists.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/11/world/asia/china-student-...

nkkollaw 8y ago

In Poland during Communism people would ask each other in church: "oh, I didn't know you were Catholic?", "I'm not. I'm against Communism".

newnewpdro 8y ago

Good riddance.

dang 8y ago
Religious flamewar is not ok here. Please don't post like this to HN again. More generally, please don't post unsubstantive comments here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

levifromhungary 8y ago

Underground churches are stronger every time they are persecuted. Success, prosperity are much more dangerous for most of the christian churches in the western world.

coliveira 8y ago

I see that the growth of China is driving Americans nuts, and they are trying to manufacture all kinds of ridiculous reasons to hate the Chinese, and not disclose that their reason number one is envy. The situation of religion in China is much better nowadays than it was ever before. A few decades ago the Chinese government would incarcerate anyone who propagated religion in the country, and nowadays must religions can be practiced as long as they orderly register with the government. The fact that a big newspaper complains about this issue after many years of progress shows that they are trying to feed the ideas of religious bigots in America who claim persecution daily, while trying themselves to persecute the ideas that they don't agree with. I find this completely appalling.

okatsu 8y ago
I dunno, the South China Morning Post reported on China essentially phasing out Islam [1], and that's on top of their ethnic cleansing with the Uyghur. 1: https://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2145939/how-china-trying-impose-islam-chinese-characteristics https://m.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/2145...

levifromhungary 8y ago

Underground churches are getting stronger every time they are persecuted. Wealth and prosperity are much more dangerous for most of the christian churches in the western world.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

The fish is a symbol for Christianity precisely because of its long history of being forbidden. The Greek word for fish is an acronym for, iirc, Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit. (That's from memory from taking two classes of Greek in the Bible Belt more than 20 years ago. I think I googled it recently and got something that did not include Holy Spirit.) It seems to me the Christian tradition of being a persecuted religion makes it well suited to fostering an underground movement in an oppressive climate. I imagine this is the Crux of the issue, both a reason it appeals and a reason the government is trying to shut it down. I'm seeing some remarks in comments that don't fit my understanding of the history. Christianity spread in part because it was very open to embracing local customs. This is why we have an Easter Bunny and Santa Claus associated with major Christian religious holidays. Jesus also said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." Iirc, he was talking about paying taxes. So, on the one hand, it's a subversive religion. On the other hand, it's a religion that is flexible and not absolutist. It can coexist with a lot of other things. Jesus himself was subversive. Among other things, he overturned the tables of the money changers because he was offended that this was at the church. The biblical stories thus contain information about how to engage in nonviolent resistance. Again, this may be a big part of the appeal. Is there much difference between saving your soul and saving you from tyranny and oppression?

sverige 8y ago

This statement by Wang Yi is instructive. http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-of-faithful-disobedience http://www.chinapartnership.org/blog/2018/12/my-declaration-...

intralizeee 8y ago

“Writing from the perspective of a person who literally had a life ruined by religious ideology impairing the mental judgement of parental figures. This is literally one of the best things I've read in my life. Going to be unpopular opinion because of people indoctrinated into freedom of expression but why not. Religious ideology has done more damage than terrorism to LGBT people. The result has lead to suicides and the law has done nothing to remedy the people abused. The people running the "faith" systems are nothing more than celebs to people who desire their fix and when it develops into a mental illness of pushing upon others.. people look the other way. Since "who has all the money" gets to keep the show running. No compassion exists in this world. Just agenda pushing by who has all the finances.” Shouldn’t be flagged

Fins 8y ago
Communists ruined (often permanently and quite fatally) lives of far more people. And they don't like the LGBT tribe much either. Short of this being a harbinger of the last communist being hanged with the guts of the last christian (with apologies to Voltaire) very soon, I fail to see how this could be "one of the best things I've read in my life".

marknadal 8y ago

Why was this kicked off #1 of homepage and now can't be found but by direct link?

tivert 8y ago
Because some people are filled with spite, and the mods probably don't want to spend Christmas moderating their flames.
dang 8y ago
Nationalistic and religious flamewar are not only off topic here, they give off toxic fumes that poison the community. We put a lot of effort into trying not to let such forces destroy this place. When indignation goes into the red, intellectual curiosity is the first casualty, so the mandate of the site requires moderation here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

upofadown 8y ago

Down at the bottom of the article: >While sermons at state-sanctioned churches are often tightly scripted, independent churches boom with searing indictments of corrupt officials and rousing calls to protect the rights of the poor. >Early Rain, which Mr. Wang founded in 2008, was among the most daring. Mr. Wang called Mr. Xi a sinner, held prayer sessions each year to mark the brutal crackdown on pro-democracy demonstrations around Tiananmen Square in Beijing in 1989, and organized a fund to support relatives of political prisoners in China. So just good old fashioned suppression of political dissent. The fact that they were churches could be entirely irrelevant.