13 ms·

A hell of a time

• MediaSquirrel 16y ago
  Holy cow.
• lucisferre 16y ago
  Wow, this is... well both unbelievable and sadly believable at the same time. It is pretty amazing the alleged culprit has also been named, It makes me wonder what, if any, sort of resulting fallout will follow this.
  • MediaSquirrel 16y ago
    This kind of shit happens to women often. They just normally don't talk about it in public.
  • cowpewter 16y ago
    I believe it. I hate that I do, but...I do. Also, site seems to have been hit pretty hard, but google cache to the rescue http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...
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  • rue 16y ago
    Yes. Report it to the police and certainly write a blog post to bring attention to the matter! I assume sexual violence is a problem at any gathering with a large (intoxicated) mixed crowd. Perhaps the thought was that it was not as common in tech conferences as it might be elsewhere? But naming a person before they are even a police suspect, that I do not agree with. Plus…as evidenced by myself…it may draw attention from the real problem at hand. Edit: I disagree with naming names at this stage of events because it sets a precedent that will lead to irreparable damage at some point. Given the police has all the necessary details, the potential downsides of publicly naming a person outweigh the potential benefits. I will leave it at that.
    • rdl 16y ago
      If someone assaulted me, and I wasn't at all unclear about what happened or his identity, I would absolutely name him. You don't need to convince a court to convict first -- that's absurd. Third parties may or may not believe or take action unless otherwise convinced. I would be highly suspicious of someone who has been credibly called out for something like this (and would probably not invite him to drink with me, especially if I were female), but would need more evidence before taking much more action. Even in the UK, it's not slander or libel if it's true.
      • shadowspar 16y ago
        This. If some guy cornered me at the bar and punched me in the face, damn straight I'd name him on my blog if I recognized who he was. Somehow I doubt anyone would accuse me of starting a witch hunt, or tell me that I needed to take better precautions for my own safety, too.
      • natrius 16y ago
        Sexual assault is a special crime in our society. If newspapers find it prudent to avoid publishing the names of victims of sexual assault, I don't see why the suspects can't be afforded the same courtesy. The potential damage is far higher for the suspect, anyway.
    • wtracy 16y ago
      "it may draw attention from the real problem at hand." This man (allegedly, to lawyer it up) sexually assaulted a woman. If that's not the problem at hand, what is?
      • rue 16y ago
        That is the problem. It is somewhat being obscured by arguments about her having named the alleged assailant, as now evidenced by some 1/3 of this thread. Edit: The currently top-rated comments would likely be nonexistent or with very low scores if the alleged assailant had not been named.
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• andrewvc 16y ago
  Seems to be down, anyone got a cache?
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• TamDenholm 16y ago
  While I realise this is a sensitive issue and I hope the author is ok, one thing I noticed is the implication that this is a thing that happens at tech conferences. I would just like to make sure we are not dissuading women from coming to tech conferences by gaining some sort of reputation here. Most people in the world are good but unfortunately this kind of thing happens and when it does we have to show it will not be tolerated and will be properly dealt with.
  • hypatiadotca 16y ago
    the OP is the third friend of mine this year who's been sexually assaulted at a technical conference. sadly, this is not as rare an event as we'd like to think :( we had a post about the whole "talking about all the bad stuff will discourage women in tech" bit a while back at geekfeminism: http://geekfeminism.org/2010/06/10/dont-mention-the-war/ http://geekfeminism.org/2010/06/10/dont-mention-the-war/
  • follower 16y ago
    > I would just like to make sure we are not dissuading women from coming to tech conferences by gaining some sort of reputation here. Tech conferences already have a reputation for this kind of incident: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
• nreece 16y ago
  Cache: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:http://blog.nerdchic.ne...
  • tocomment 16y ago
    Why is that site slow to load. Isn't it just coming from google?
    • Devilboy 16y ago
      Hit the 'text only' link
    • patio11 16y ago
      It is loading Javascript from her site. She probably has Apache KeepAlive on with a maximum number of connections far insufficient for the number of people currently trying to request files. They all get into a line and request their file, get it almost instantly, then keep the connection open for 2 ~ 3 seconds waiting for another request to come in... while several thousand people behind them have their requests time out. Javascript included in the HEAD of a document will block rendering until it is either downloaded and parsed completely or times out. Thus, it doesn't matter if Google's CDN gives you the HTML in 5 milliseconds -- your user-visible experience is dominated by her server's timeout on the Javascript. Apache KeepAlive: it kills more blogs than cancer. For learning about this general subject, I recommend the YSlow presentations.
      • colmmacc 16y ago
        Hi there, I'm the administrator of the box running the blog. I'm also colm@apache.org, one of the authors of Apache httpd. KeepAlive's are enabled on the host, but with a deliberate timeout of 1 second. The listen backlog is 25, which can contribute to a backlog looking like the above but it isn't. The hosted ended up getting wedged due to poor MySQL contention, there is a limit of just 80 server processes (and hence connections - we're running pre-fork on this host), and they were each getting blocked on MySQL reads. That's been sorted now, and some better caching, compression and more put in place. It's a 1Ghz, 1GB RAM box is a colo that got slammed by HN, Reddit and Techcrunch in one go - to an uncached wordpress instance. I'm surprised it did as well as it did ;-)
• ssor 16y ago
  Not to give that dude an excuse for his behaviour, but consider this: This happened at a private after-party in a private hotel room where a small crowd got all cozy with apparently too many drinks involved. This did not happen at the conference. The difference is important. Context is everything in these cases.
  • lucisferre 16y ago
    How is the difference important at all. Regardless, I consider the after-conference 'events' often more substantial than some of the conference, it is my favorite part and I often learn more out of the (usually drunken) disucssions. The thought of having the anxiety or fear like this ruin that for me is terrible.
    • wtracy 16y ago
      It makes a difference in terms of being able to tell women: You're going to be safer at the actual event than at the after-event drinking parties. In terms of excusing the man's behavior, it makes no fucking difference.
      • cowpewter 16y ago
        Unfortunately, the after-event drinking parties are where most of the fun and the networking happen. I don't think telling women "oh sure the conference is perfectly safe but watch yourself at the after-parties, geeks can get pretty handsy when they're drunk" is going to encourage more women to come to conferences. (Sorry for the sour sarcasm, it's the only way I can handle such a uncomfortable subject)
      • lucisferre 16y ago
        Perhaps you should send the author a note asking to add your sentiments to her post. Honestly the only thing that could possibly make any difference would be if the whole thing was fabricated. Which would be a huge difference.
  • _delirium 16y ago
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• sofal 16y ago
  What in the hell? How is this believable and usual? I have been living under a rock. Is this seriously what typically goes on at drinking parties?
  • _delirium 16y ago
    I wouldn't say "typically", but it's sadly not uncommon. I'm a guy and make no real effort to observe (or even attend) most of these kinds of afterparties, and have still seen stuff ranging from "somewhat inappropriate" to "wtf" a few times. Usually a really drunk guy is involved, and it often turns out that said drunk guy has done inappropriate things while drunk at previous events. Not sure how to make it happen, but there are some people who really should not be drunk at public/semi-public events. (There are also people who are totally out of line while sober, but I think it's a minority of the serious incidents at conferences.)
• smokey_the_bear 16y ago
  The article seems to be down, so I can't read it right now. But I went to DefCon when I was 17, and it was the most sexually threatened I've ever felt. Some things were benign, a lot of strange looks and stupid things like guys dropping stuff and asking me to pick it up. Someone followed me in a parking lot and then ducked out of sight twice. Someone grabbed my ass on the way out of a talk. I otherwise had a great time there, but I didn't go back for 10 years. I had none of the same issues later, but I'm not sure if the crowd has changed or if they're just less interested in 27 year olds.
  • rdl 16y ago
    DefCon is an outlier even by tech conference standards. Especially for DC2-DC11 or so, it was basically a party which had a bunch of computer hackers, and while there are lots of parties at other conferences, at early DC the party was basically all day (although I didn't go to DC2-DC5 myself). DefCon was basically Burning Man or a comic/fan conference, although it did become a bit more "industry" around 2000. BlackHat (which runs contiguously to DefCon) is much more of a "professional" conference, while still being more "fun" than something like RSA, or the academic conferences from IACR. (I really enjoyed DefCon, and have spoken a few times, but going without knowing what you're getting into would be a mistake)
  • marvin 16y ago
    Okay... I am a pretty experienced party animal, and this stuff (sexual assault, that is...not random hookups) is NOT normal. I've heard the occasional story, but both you and the author of this post seems to imply that this is a pretty regular occurrence. Hell, if "it was everyone else's job to prevent being sexually assaulted" and her friends "managed to do this job on several occasions" (parapharasing here), this sounds like one of the seediest parties I have ever heard of. Stuff like this does NOT fly in any normal social setting - the guys usually have the decency to back off before things get too awkward, and if they don't, someone will usually break in and stop it. I've never been to one of these conferences, but what's the deal here? Being a bit of a cynic in regards to the social skills of a lot of techies, I'm thinking that this is could be the result of alcohol + desperate and socially inept guys + a few women that don't have the critical mass to put up a proper pick-up shield. If this is really a normal phenomenon at tech conferences, I'm a bit shocked that no one have mentioned it before. The incidents that have been mentioned sound more to me like completely clueless pick-up attempts than any genuine attempt at assault or rape, but the end result is pretty much the same.
• DevX101 16y ago
  Apparently this guy is a twitter dev. Should heinous behavior like this at an after party be grounds for firing him? What would you do if you were his boss?
  • nostromo 16y ago
    I'd say yes. At a conference-related event, you still represent your company on some level. (This of course assumes that the events happened as stated.)
    • rdtsc 16y ago
      As someone pointed out, this is still an allegation. If the allegation alone leads to firing, then another way to look at it is : the best way to have someone fired, is to make an allegation like that against them. Also, since the developer is still representing your company at a conference. Accusing the developer of an assault is also a good way to tarnish the company's image.
  • poet 16y ago
    I'd fire him in a second with sufficient corroboration of the story. There's a non-negligible chance that such poor decision making isn't confined to just women.
    • electromagnetic 16y ago
      With corroboration, I'd fire him in a second. You're opening your company up to a world of pain if one of your execs has a proven history of sexual assault. Furthermore, I know me personally would be looking for work elsewhere. I'm male, but I wouldn't want anything to do with someone I know has sexually assaulted a woman.
  • lrm242 16y ago
    Better be careful about making any decisions on a blog post. That's how wrongful termination lawsuits get filed. The correct response is to talk to him, get his side of the story, wait to see if the authorities will get involved, and make a decision once more of the facts have been aired.
• Judson 16y ago
  Wow, think about waking up from a drunken night to realize not only that you made poor decisions the night before, but that you are now the Internet douchebag. This guy probably wishes he kept his hands to himself.
  • MediaSquirrel 16y ago
    Probably not the first time. Most guys who pull this shit are serial offenders. Once they realize they can act with impunity, they repeat the behavior.
    • nkohari 16y ago
      I'm not defending either side in this situation, but it seems unfair to immediately think the accused is a serial rapist.
• faramarz 16y ago
  Disgusting! It's equally appalling that this has happened to her numerous times. wtf?
  • eli 16y ago
    What's worse is that isn't really an outlier. Hard numbers are tough to come by, but sexual assault really is that common.
    • mkramlich 16y ago
      And the more loosely we define "sexual assault" the more common it becomes. Words are awesome that way. :)
    • usaar333 16y ago
      It's certainly common, but it is radically different across demographic groups. I find it very hard to believe it is common for women to get sexually assaulted at a tech conferences full of intelligent, upper class , and generally meek around women guys. I'm sure it unfortunately does happen, but I doubt it is something occurring every other conference.
      • callahad 16y ago
        > "I find it very hard to believe it is common for women to get sexually assaulted at a tech conferences" And that's the crazy part. It doesn't make sense. You've got intelligent folks, not the dregs of society or anything, and yet, it is common. I attended a tech conference earlier this year in which one of the attendees set up an open space to discuss "invisible diversity" (transgender / genderqueer, sexual orientation, neurodiversity, etc.). 1/10th of the conference's attendees presented as non-male, while 1/2 of this particular open space presented as non-male, which seems to indicate that it touched on a subject of particular interest to folks that didn't fit into the white, cisgendered, male majority. More interestingly, most of the non-male individuals in attendance explicitly stated that they felt sexually threatened at most conferences. Crazy, right? But when someone makes that claim, and sufficiently many others offer their assent and echo the claims, then I'm left having to believe that, yes, those things do happen, and at a far greater rate than is directly visible to you or I.
• MediaSquirrel 16y ago
  The original post in entirety... I had a hell of a time last night – in good and bad ways. The good came first. The ApacheCon lightning talks were, as usual, hilarious. The talented Paul Fremantle brought out his tinwhistle and I danced an only-slightly off-time hornpipe. Bertrand revealed the secrets of the members@ mailing list with a speaking chorus. A crazy person with a graphing calculator and a psychedelic three-ring binder gatecrashed and spoke about no-one’s sure what. Ross, Paul and I did an “Ask Me!” talk. Leo, Rich, Shane filled their five minutes in traditional and hilarious and moving fashions. Jean-Frederic had us saying Hello World in more languages than I could count. We laughed as we counted hesitations, repetitions and deviations. It was great. The party moved up to my room. We had beer, and beer pong, and altogether too many people crammed in. It was more egalitarian than I remember last year’s being – lots of new people, lots of people who weren’t part of the old Apache guard. A charming Southern gentleman with the most awesome belt I’ve ever seen (Carl, where did you get that!?), an excited Berliner who picked me up and whirled me around and somehow managed to avoid having me kick anyone in the head. I lay across the bed, sat on laps, generally tried to squish in to any available space and get time to talk to all the fabulous people thronging the place. At some point, it was too late and too loud to reasonably continue. Everyone cleared out (Nick, you are a god, for spending the extra five minutes to clear the carnage, so that I could wake up in a room that showed no signs of what had happened the night before!), and we headed to the Irish pub next door that has become our local. Some food, a few more beers. Squeezing everyone up so I could sit next to someone I wanted to talk to. Laughing at the events of the week, and the night. And then I went to the loo, and as I was about to go in, Florian Leibert, who had been speaking in the Hadoop track, called me over, and asked if he could talk to me. I’m on the board of Apache. I’m responsible for our conferences. I work on community development and mentoring. If you’re at an Apache event and you want help, information, encouragement, answers, I will always do my best to provide. So this wasn’t an unusual request, and it wasn’t one I expected to end the way it did. He brought me in to the snug, and sat up on a stool. He grabbed me, pulled me in to him, and kissed me. I tried to push him off, and told him I wasn’t interested (I may have been less eloquent, but I don’t think I was less clear). He responded by jamming his hand into my underwear and fumbling. I broke away, headed back to the group, and hid behind some of the bigger, burlier infra guys, while Bill sorted out all the people who’d left stuff in my room, so that I could reasonably escape. We headed back, people got their stuff, Bill stayed around, and I slept. When Bill woke up, I pretended to still be asleep, because I couldn’t deal with speaking to anyone. I sent a mail to our planning committee to say that I’d been assaulted. Charel came to talk to me, and then I e-mailed Nick, who came up and helped me sort things out so I could get to the keynote and feel safe. Florian didn’t turn up today, and it’s probably for the best. I had a few drinks. I was wearing a skirt of such a length that I had cycling shorts on under it to make me feel more comfortable getting up on stage and dancing. I had been flirting with a couple of other boys at the party. It’s not the first time something like this has happened to me, at all. It’s not the first time it’s happened to me at a tech conference. But it is the first time I’ve spoken out about it in this way, because I’m tired of the sense that some idiot can ruin my day and never have to answer for it. I’m tired of the fear. I’m tired of people who think I should wear something different. I’m tired of people who think I should avoid having a beer in case my vigilance lapses for a moment. I’m tired of people who say that guys can’t read me right and I have to read them, and avoid giving the wrong impression. But I don’t give the wrong impression, and it’s simply not true that guys can’t read me right. I don’t want to be assaulted, and the vast majority of guys read that just fine. It is not my job to avoid getting assaulted. It is everyone else’s job to avoid assaulting me. Dozens of guys succeeded at that job, across the week. In the pub, in the stairwell, on the MARTA, in my bedroom. One guy failed, and it’s his fault.
• patio11 16y ago
  The presumption of innocence and punishment only following guilty verdicts at trials arbitrated by neutral parties are hard ideals to stick to when crimes are heinous, it is clear to any right thinking person what happened, and a message needs to be sent... and that is precisely when they are most valuable to society.
  • smanek 16y ago
    How is it clear to any 'right thinking person what happened'? Until there is corroborating evidence (witness, confession, etc) I see no reason to believe anything about events that took place. It seems incredibly dangerous and irresponsible to default to believing one person's (as of yet) unsubstantiated tale. I can think of half a dozen scenarios in which the accused was innocent. Everything from mistaken identity (that has happened to me!), to drunken mis-remembering, to flat out lying is still on the table.
    • rue 16y ago
      You are misreading the GP. The sentiment, as I understand it, is that the legal framework is most important when one is personally involved, even if the case seems very clear to oneself and even other observers.
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    • patio11 16y ago
      This is why "right thinking person" is generally supposed to be read as an ironic marker: it is a subrosa way to say "the meaning of my words is different than than their literal import." You will virtually never hear those words meant literally.
      • smanek 16y ago
        Ah, my apologies! With the new parsing, your comment makes perfect sense.
  • deleted 16y ago
• bradleyjoyce 16y ago
  "It’s not the first time something like this has happened to me, at all. It’s not the first time it’s happened to me at a tech conference. But it is the first time I’ve spoken out about it in this way, because I’m tired of the sense that some idiot can ruin my day and never have to answer for it." At this risk of everyone taking this the wrong way.... (1) If it's not the first time this has happened, it might be time to re-evaluate the pattern of behavior that led up to the unfortunate event. (2) Never have to answer for it?!!? Um if you're sexually assaulted (multiple times?!?!) you should definitely be reporting that to the POLICE where the offender will, I'm pretty sure, have to answer for it. Right? I totally understand that blogging about this must have been incredibly difficult for this person, and perhaps naming the accused in the post lightens the burden on her a bit... but this should definitely be a police issue, not a blog issue!
  • cowpewter 16y ago
    "If it's not the first time this has happened, it might be time to re-evaluate the pattern of behavior that led up to the unfortunate event." Responses like this are exactly why women don't speak up when these things happen.
    • robryan 16y ago
      Yeah, it's not like a large number of guys got the wrong impression here, just the one. If the rest of us can be sensible and respectful why should the outlier force females to act a different way. It's the same as not taking trains because maybe 1 in every 1000 guys late at night cause trouble.
    • bradleyjoyce 16y ago
      I'm in no way trying to say it's her fault. But if there is some pattern to the situation perhaps it would be worthwhile to analyze in the hopes that it didn't happen again? It's unfair and unjust that in doing so she might uncover something she could change to help prevent some pervert from doing something atrocious... but if it did prevent it, wouldn't it be worth it? It seems logical to me... but I guess in being logical I'm somehow being sexist or something (which is why my original comment is getting downvoted?)?
• deleted 16y ago
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• hop 16y ago
  A friend in college was accused of something worse, luckily witnesses (her friends) and a video camera proved otherwise and she finally admitted the truth to the police two months later. No jail time for her lying, but this guys whole life was on the verge of destruction - jail time, registered sex offender for life, everyone in your social circle would think you are a monster, all friends in your hometown, your parents, their friends, any future employers that could Google, etc. I'm certainly not saying that in this case, but this type of thing is completely your word versus theirs and an ounce of caution should be taken in the rush to judgement until all the facts come out.
  • earl 16y ago
    I'm curious -- do you run around posting in every thread that concerns potentially criminal behavior that people shouldn't rush to judgement? And if not, what in particular makes this case prompt you to jump in with that story? And people wonder why more women don't come forward.
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  • lrm242 16y ago
    Thats right. It happens and sometimes it even gets national publicity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case. Look, no one knows anything right now apart from what appears to be a credible accusation on a blog. People rightly want to believe that the truth is simple and want to see the accused held accountable; however, in cases like these one must take a measured approach to fully understand the situation. It's easy to jump in with the lynch mob, but making an informed decision based on gathered data and collected facts is the right thing to do.
  • 16y ago
• skorgu 16y ago
  I'd post this to her site if I could but I'd like to sincerely thank Noirin for speaking out about this. We as a community have a long way to go and speaking honestly and openly about problems is the very first step.
• puredemo 16y ago
  I'll probably get downvoted for asking, but I'm curious, would everyone be as upset over this had it been a drunken female guest inappropriately grabbing a guy's package? And if the male blogger had then written a similar blog about being sexually assaulted at a party, naming the female who grabbed him? I'm not endorsing this sort of behavior obviously, but the public shaming element here seems fairly twisted. If a sexual assault occurred she should go to the police about it and press charges. Not start an internet witch hunt.
  • earl 16y ago
    Name and shame is a perfectly reasonable response to such behavior, in addition to contacting a DA at her discretion.
  • _delirium 16y ago
    I'd find it pretty objectionable in that case as well. I guess the main difference is that I'd find it objectionable and very surprising/unusual, which sadly isn't really the case with this story. As a guy, I don't feel at all apprehensive about attending tech-conference afterparties for fear that someone's going to grope me, because I estimate the chances of that happening as very small. I guess for me the interesting part of this post is discussing what we can do about the tech community's culture / conference arrangements / whatever to make these incidents very uncommon for all genders, as opposed to how to handle this particular incident. I suppose that could've been done without naming the person, and the post would've still been interesting to me.
    • mkramlich 16y ago
      If I had a guy friend who, say, had his ass grabbed by a woman at a bar, and he went home and wrote a public blog about it, whining, and described it as "assault" I'd think less of him as a person. Puh-lease. I'd think, "Grow up. Get some perspective. You'll live. Somehow, you'll live."
      • sp4rki 16y ago
        A good point you make with such comment is that getting him fired from his job and the possibility of completely screwing his life in check with what he actually did do?
• phugoid 16y ago
  I don't know any of the people involved here, but I would rather see this handled by the law than by an Internet lynch mob. The law maybe impotent and incompetent at times, but it's the best we have for dealing with criminal behavior.
• earl 16y ago
  since I can't get the site to load http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cache:http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?sourceid=chrome...
• sh1mmer 16y ago
  I can't share the specifics to protect the privacy of the people involved. But, I help out with a lot of conferences and speak at dozens more every year. I've heard at least 3 accounts similar to this, just this year, at other conferences. Very often they end with a minor hero, like Bill in this case, acting as a chaperone for someone who should never need one at all. It frustrates me greatly that despite the effort that many conferences do to make conference going more egalitarian, welcoming and safe for women some men are still as ignorant, offensive, and disgusting as to treat women this way.
  • justaguyb 16y ago
    I also tend to take it on face value, because my experience is that women are treated extremely poorly at these events, particularly if they're even a little bit attractive. Large numbers of men, many of whom have social issues, widely available alcohol, and small numbers of women... it's a recipe for something really terrible.
• sp4rki 16y ago
  While I don't condone at all this kind of behavior on behalf of men, I have also seen the other side of the story on various occasions. One specific incident actually comes to mind. A friend of mine had been dating a woman I was friends with from high school and used to keep in touch with. At this point I didn't know they where dating each other. One day he terminated the 'relationship' and the woman while seeking my advice made the comment that she could 'fuck up his life by saying he raped her'. I tried to convince her not to do so and though that she had desisted of such idea. A week later I was informed that my friend was being detained and charged with sexual assault, at that moment I actually put everything together, made a few calls and realized what had happened. I ended up telling everything she told to the police and my friend's lawyer and a week later the charges had been dropped. I even had a closer to home to home experience with this in highschool, I was a girl's scape goat in a plot to make a boyfriend jealous while I was actually still a virgin. She told everyone that she had sex with me, when it wasn't true and it almost became a problem. I'm not trying to say that this is the case here and that the author is lying though, but with lack of proof (and that certainly seems to be the case by reading the blog post) it is a very slippery slope to name the person on your blog. This could most probably ruin the guys life, the same way my friends life was on the verge of being ruined by someone with a bone to pick. Again, I'm not saying this is the case here, nor that I don't believe her, nor that I condone some men's behavior. As a matter of fact I'd rather side with the author on this one, but naming a person publicly like this, can easily destroy his and his family's life and future.
  • justaguyb 16y ago
    but with lack of proof (and that certainly seems to be the case by reading the blog post) it is a very slippery slope to name the person on your blog. Let me get this clear: it's your opinion that unless somebody videotapes every moment of their life, that they should not publicly state negative things that happen to them? edit: for the downvoters, which part of that question is inappropriate?
    • rue 16y ago
      Tone, putting words in someone else's mouth and conflating a very specific action with doing anything at all.
• sqrt17 16y ago
  I think that the most appropriate way to deal this is with consistent and timely enforcement of rules: if someone gropes you or worse, call him or her out in front of the group and ask for help from bystanders to remove the person from the place, or, if appropriate, hold him or her and call the police. There's no shame in asking other people for help when there's a situation to be dealt with, and I'd be surprised if a bunch of ApacheCon attendees were less than helpful in this regard, even in an after-several-beers state. Independently of whether someone barfed on you, stole your wallet, sexually assaulted you or wanted to start a boxing fight.
  • lizzard 16y ago
    I agree that is a good way to deal with these situations. React immediately, in the moment, and enlist the people around you. That turns out to be very hard to do. It's difficult to have the presence of mind. I've done it many times, but haven't always managed to react immediately, 100% of the time. I believe it takes practice. It's worth setting up a situation to role-play and actually say the words to call someone out and shut their bad behavior down, and how to support someone who's trying to do that. The Open Source Women Back Each Other Up Project might be helpful: http://backupproject.org/faq.html http://backupproject.org/faq.html
  • follower 16y ago
    > if someone gropes you or worse, call him or her out in front of the group In a way that's what has happened with this blog post. And look at the response. > There's no shame in asking other people for help There is if someone calls you a liar or comments on your sexual behaviour as a result. It's reasons like this that people are reluctant to report incidents like this.
• danielnicollet 16y ago
  The two people at the heart of the matter: Noirin Plunket Shirley - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiM6_pCyvMI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiM6_pCyvMI Florian Liebert - http://vimeo.com/4211288 http://vimeo.com/4211288 I'd like them to concentrate on tech stuff more and this stuff less.
  • dannyobrien 16y ago
    I wonder why you think she has a choice?
  • follower 16y ago
    > I'd like them to concentrate on tech stuff more and this stuff less. I would suspect Noirin feels the same way.
  • mkramlich 16y ago
    at least she's been named explicitly too. only fair. neither should be named in public, before/outside a legal venue. but if she's going to name him, then she needs to be named too.
    • danielnicollet 16y ago
      that's what I thought too - she came to the court of HN opinion which maybe not the best for this particular matter but at least all should be fully transparent
      • follower 16y ago
        In what way is writing a blog post that was then posted by Stephen Sclafani (http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ssclafani http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ssclafani) coming to the "the court of HN opinion"?
• logicalmind 16y ago
  As the father of two daughters I am somewhat appalled by the responses here. I'm not taking anyone's side, but the responses here are shocking to me. I don't know what to say, but, WOW! Maybe I need to rethink the advice I am giving my daughters.
  • cperciva 16y ago
    Defensiveness, denial, etc Are you reading the same site? What I see is lots of perfectly reasonable people saying "it's really horrible that this sort of thing happens, and we've got the pitchforks and torches ready, but we're not going to put a noose around this guy's neck based on a blog post alone".
    • logicalmind 16y ago
      My original post contained the words you quoted. As I scrolled down the page I realized that the posts were less offensive and edited my post. Yet, at this point in time, a number of the top upvoted comments are quite defensive and in denial.
  • pjscott 16y ago
    Could you cite some specific examples of replies that appall you, and perhaps give a short explanation of what you take issue with? That would help make this discussion more concrete, and hopefully more productive.
    • logicalmind 16y ago
      Sure, Here was the original top comment I found appalling: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1875900 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1875900 This right here is called denial. In short "I have a friend, who is like this guy, who was accused of the same thing and he got off." Which in my opinion is denying that the female involved is telling the truth and that this person is completely innocent. Additionally, this is the second highest post as I type. I don't think I even have to respond. At this time, the comment that makes the same point as me is downvoted to the negative: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1875948 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1875948 At this point I don't want to continue further defending my point. Downvote me if you like. I find the responses here about 50% disturbing and 50% uplifting. That is no reflection on HN, but on the tech community. Before today I would have gladly recommended to my daughters to follow a tech path. But after tonight I've lost my innocence on that. I've never really thought about these issues from a woman's perspective before tonight. And I've never really been involved in a situation like this. So my responses might be a bit different than the typical younger 20's male responses. And I'm fine with that. Maybe I've just lost my innocence.
• mkramlich 16y ago
  "assaulted" uh....not sure i can say much more without the PC crowd hammering me to death. While none of us were there -- which is a big caveat -- from the description I read I'd hesitate to call what happened "assault". I'm picturing the assault on the Normandy defenses in 1944, in it's best usage. Or someone walking up to you and slamming a baseball bat into your face. Ouch. That's assault. But being kissed or having someone come on to you in a sexual/romantic manner -- even if you did not want it or reciprocate -- I think really stretches and abuses the language. Here's one mental tool to help tease out the important distinction involved. Let's say the exact same thing happened as described in the story, except that the woman was sexually attracted to the man in question -- it would not be described as assault, just a man being aggressive and the woman liking it and being glad he did. It's pretty well known that a lot of woman like men to come on strong to them and be dominant -- of course the catch is they like this if they were attracted to them in the first place, but if they weren't, then it can have the opposite effect. Well, even if there were German soldiers stationed along the beaches of Normandy in 1944 who "kinda wanted" for the Allies to invade, it would regardless still be a military assault when they did. Now add alcohol drinking, a bar, late night, partying, lots of rowdy behavior, touching, intentional flirting, geeks with poor social skills and body language cue reading, etc. and things become even more, shall we say, less clear cut.
  • cowpewter 16y ago
    (According to her) he put his hand INSIDE her underwear. AFTER she said she wasn't interested. If it had only been the unwanted kiss, and she said no, don't touch me, and he said, oh I'm sorry, and left it at that, then yes...it was probably just a drunken misunderstanding. Shoving your hand INSIDE another person's (of any gender) underpants after being expressly told that said person was not interested in you sexually is absolutely sexual assault.
    • mkramlich 16y ago
      If that's sexual assault because it's defined to be sexual assault, then it is. Can't argue with that. Words can mean whatever we want. I think the point I was making is that, at least in my case, I had a definition of "assault" long before I ever heard of the term "sexual assault" and I believe the latter is more of a legal term than a common sense, everyday term. Assault involves violence and planning. If there was no violence, and also possibly no planning/premeditation, I personally find it hard to swallow calling this "assault" of any kind. I mean, to put it in perspective, we're talking about, at worst, one adult male putting his hand inside the underwear of another adult female, at a bar, late at night, very likely while one or both parties are drunk, and one or both parties have been flirting or otherwise being touchy-feely with lots of folks all night preceding it. Add to this people who don't read body language and attraction cues perfectly well. And add to this some men wanted to be sexually aggressive and dominant toward a woman they find attractive -- and add to that many women wanting and liking men to do that -- and this adds up to a recipe where I could see something like this happening, and honestly, it should not be such a big deal. Slap on wrist? Sure. Crime? Not so sure. And again: what about the concept of no harm, no foul. It's life. Move on.
• sp332 16y ago
  She, and a lot of commenters, are talking as if Florian Leibert thought this was a good idea, or that this behavior is OK, or something. It looks like he had a few too many and lost control. "Thousands and thousands of years of civilization and education" (as emmanuel lécharny put it in the comments on that page) just don't come into it. If he'd gotten into a car and accidentally driven off a cliff, no one would call him suicidal. I don't think he has a "double standard", and I don't think he was planning to "get patted on the back for it", as L. claimed.
  • mkramlich 16y ago
    Agreed. When people have alcohol, they often lose inhibitions and do or say things they otherwise would not. There's a good chance this applied to many of the people described in the story.
    • drags 16y ago
      One implication of this statement is that some people hold back from committing sexual assault in large part due to societal pressure. Perhaps true, but not much of an excuse on a moral level.
      • sp332 16y ago
        No one said it was any excuse. I'm worried that people will get the wrong answers when they ask the wrong questions. My point wasn't about social pressure but mental exertion: consciously examining one's own thoughts in real-time. Definitely the only thing that keeps people back from sexual assault is consciously deciding not to.
        • msbarnett 16y ago
          I cannot recall ever consciously needing to decide not to commit sexual assault.
          • mkramlich 16y ago
• elliottcarlson 16y ago
  I have a few women in my life that were sexually assaulted at various ages ranging from grabbing of their asses to stuff I just can not write; and it saddens me that so many people in this thread are shocked that it is such a common occurrence. Statistics have shown that a woman is assaulted every 2 to 3 minutes in the US alone, and that 1 in 3 women will be assaulted in their lifetime. This is not an uncommon thing, and it happens whether it's in some dark alley or at a tech conference. Just as a woman needs to be vigilant of what is going around her, us men (or other women) need to be vigilant of threats to other women around them when in bars or conferences or wherever. If this allegation is true, I hope that the perpetrator is charged and his life altered so he can't do something like this again or worse.
• Legion 16y ago
  She has tweeted a link to a working copy of the article: http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418/ The tweet quotes the line: "It is not my job to avoid getting assaulted. It is everyone else's job to avoid assaulting me." I think that statement is wrongheaded. Not the second part - it is indeed everyone else's job to avoid assaulting people. The responsibility for the crime lies entirely with the perpetrator. Unfortunately, because of this, making any statement as to the victim's behavior is always seen as "blaming the victim". The problem is, in this world, we only reliably control the actions of one person: ourselves. We can take principled stands that "it's everyone else's job to not assault me", and that's so true, but in the end, being right isn't a suitable stand-in for being safe. That is why I don't like the statement, "It is not my job to avoid getting assaulted". Because regardless of where the responsibility should lie, in reality, we are ALWAYS the stewards of our own personal safety. We have to be, because we're the only person in the world who will treat the job with the gravity it deserves. If I walk down a bad alley, it is not my fault if I get shot. The person pulling the trigger is 100% at fault. But, I was not being a good steward of my own safety. Towards the end of the post, she says, "I’m tired of people who think I should avoid having a beer in case my vigilance lapses for a moment." You have a right to be tired. I've lived in a couple of unsafe places where I grew tired of the fact that I had to be vigilant just to go about my daily life. It is draining and it is frustrating to have to alter your behavior because of the threat posed by others. But we only have one life, and safety must take priority over principle. It is right to say that the perpetrator is the one at fault. It is right to call them out and make them account for their actions. Innocent people shouldn't have to alter their behavior to avoid danger. But the reality is that they have to anyway. EDIT: Allow me to clarify a couple of points. Some people are taking me as saying, "you have to do everything possible to protect yourself, and if something happens, then you didn't protect yourself enough." This is false. Sometimes, stuff happens even if you do everything right. The point was simply that you have a responsibility to your own personal well-being to do everything right, even though you can't guarantee 100% safety. Also, I have avoided applying my comments to her specific sequence of events. Some people have taken me as lecturing her in failing. Folks, she was largely successful in doing what I'm saying. Her attacker was clearly intending to do more and was foiled. This may not have been the case if, say, she had been too drunk, or in a place where she was not able to make the escape she did, etc. What her attacker did was the sexual assault equivalent of a sucker punch. He found the ever-so-slightest opening and exploited it. She successfully shook off the initial attack and defended herself from any further assault. We're talking about a situation that could have ended much worse, and didn't because she was able to take ownership of her safety. And she had to do so because there was no one else to do the job. Which is why I found the comments in her blog/tweet that I replied to a little puzzling, and made this post to address them.
• deleted 16y ago
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• prawn 16y ago
  The male in question appears to have deleted or renamed his Twitter profile: http://twitter.com/floleibert http://twitter.com/floleibert (At the time of the incident, he worked for Twitter. Wonder if he still does?) Edit: Ignore this - seems to have switched to https://twitter.com/flo https://twitter.com/flo at some point.
  • elliottcarlson 16y ago
    Actually his Twitter profile is at http://twitter.com/flo http://twitter.com/flo
    • prawn 16y ago
      Just spotted and was about to mention that. Must've changed at some point as there were old links around. Thanks Elliott.
• forgotusername 16y ago
  This is a sensitive subject, and quite possibly she has been the victim of a crime, however it is impossible to ignore that a further sin in many ways as bad as the original has been committed, and that is to deny fair trial to a man, which is very much what has been done by accusation of sexual assault in such a public manner (just check some of the results for a Twitter search on @flo right now). I can only hope she is beyond all doubt the situation as described could not have been perceived any differently, particularly after using language such as "told him I wasn’t interested (I may have been less eloquent, but I don’t think I was less clear". It's also sickening to see how many people have sided with the accuser in the weblog's comments and elsewhere (especially on Twitter), given nothing more than a name and an accusation. Not cool (either way).
  • foldr 16y ago
    AFAIK, it's not considered prejudicial to a fair trial for an (alleged) victim to name the accused before the trial begins. After all, the name of the accused will be made public in any case if there is a trial.
• rue 16y ago
  Reading through the comments here, they for the most part strike me as coldly analytical. Knowing our "breed", though, I think mostly everyone is also upset about the situation, genuinely sorry that it happened and interested in ensuring it does not in the future. It may not seem that way but I feel confident in saying that it is. Hell, even my "emotional" post is not. Perception is a funny thing.
• deleted 16y ago
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• savoy11 16y ago
  I'd like to put this into the perspective of a foreigner. I believe the sexual assault problem has been blown out of proportions in American culture - there are things that are just too much, like the sex offenders registration/web site for example. Sex offending is a bad crime, but so is killing someone with a car while driving drunk, how come there is no web site for offenders like that? You can very easily ruin someone's life forever with a blog post like this and while I do not defend him, I believe this is too much and too mean to do at this point, especially without hard evidence of what really happened. This blog post will come #1 for his name forever on all Google searches, she has effectively ruined his personal and professional life forever now. This sex offender thing results in curious effects in American society that I have not seen anywhere else. For example, in a typical American bar/night-club, the women would typically be the active part in initiating conversations and even talk directly about sex/one-night stands. This has happened to me multiple times. Men are very cautious to even initiate a conversation, let alone suggest something more, because it is very easy to label this sex offense. This is at least my observation with my American friends (Silicon Valley, educated, geek) - this may be different somewhere else. Just my $0.02. I do not defend the guy, it is just so easy to drop names in blog posts lie that, but you have to be careful when you do that. Also read the comments on her blog. Some of the comments say that this is not the first time she has written blog posts about her being sexually offended (contrary to what she says it's the first time she talks about that). Do not kill the guy based on that. Even if he did what she claims, there are still 1,000 crimes that are much worse than that and we do not even discuss them so much here.
  • savoy11 16y ago
    Read carefully guys before downvoting and know there are always two sides of the same story. Tomorrow this can happen to you too. Ruining someone's personal and professional life forever is a very drastic thing to do and is a very hard punishment even for the worst crimes. This is a comment from her blog post. This greatly differs from her original point that she has never talked about this before, let alone name anyone. <quote> Please don’t think i’m accusing you of fabricating this story but it concerns me greatly that this isn’t the first time you have blogged about being sexual assaulted and named the men involved. Why do you think it is ok for you to do this? I don’t know who Florian Leibert is but without any proof of what happened you have essentially libeled him by making a (technically) baseless allegation of sexual assault.
• iopuy 16y ago
  Please lets not assassinate Florian Leibert character based off of the uncorroborated evidence of a single individual. Noirin obviously has some strong opinions regarding gender and technology and I pray that these haven't had any role in this matter. Her Geek Feminism affiliations - http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Heroes_Women_in_FOSS http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Heroes_Women_in_FOSS Her involvement in the org.apache.women group - http://markmail.org/message/dwdadluiapbg5qrs http://markmail.org/message/dwdadluiapbg5qrs A blog entry about her divorce that pretty much blames it all on her husbands health. - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cm9PvCvek70J:www.linuxchix.org/aggregator/sources/26+noirin+Plunkett+sex&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cm9PvCv...
  • follower 16y ago
    Just to clarify for those who may not click through and read the links posted by the newly created "iopuy" account: > Her Geek Feminism affiliations - http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Heroes_Women_in_FOSS http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Heroes_Women_in_FOSS A web page created by Kirrily Robert (a.k.a skud) who was liveblogging a talk by Pia Waugh entitled "Heroes: Women in FOSS" at OSCON 2008. On that page in a list entitled "We gots hackers: a list of women" Noirin Plunkett's name appears along with ten other women. > Her involvement in the org.apache.women group - http://markmail.org/message/dwdadluiapbg5qrs http://markmail.org/message/dwdadluiapbg5qrs In which, amongst other things she asks if the charter for the group "could replace every instance of 'women' with a word that includes both genders - 'people', 'newbies', 'interested proto-participants', anything that's not discriminatory." and concludes with: """ If we can make the ASF a more open, comfortable, easy-to-work-in environment, everyone wins. I understand that it's very easy for a group of women to focus on helping other women - it's easier to put ourselves in the shoes of those who are similar to us. And I'm certainly not saying we should insist on fixing everything at once. However, I do think we should start the way we mean to go on, and that, to me, requires a much more inclusive charter. """ > A blog entry about her divorce that pretty much blames it all on her husbands health. - http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cm9PvCvek70J:www.linuxchix.org/aggregator/sources/26+noirin+Plunkett+sex&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cm9PvCv... And also links to a blog by her ex-husband wherein he says "How Noirin lasted so long, i’ll never understand. She’s amazing." I don't want anybody in the tech community to die at the hand of character assassination, Florian, Noirin, you or me.
• Maxious 16y ago
  Note that this is just one in a long history of convention "incidents" in the open source/geek community to the extent that there is a "Con Anti-Harassment Project" site @ http://www.cahp.girl-wonder.org/ http://www.cahp.girl-wonder.org/
• deleted 16y ago
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• commodorecomma 16y ago
  The location and particulars of the story are irrelevant. If you think they are important, you are saying that it is ok to rape a woman if certain circumstances are met. Perhaps they change for each person, but by engaging in the argument, you change the statement from "Rape and sexual assault are wrong" to "rape and sexual assault are wrong in these contexts." So what context makes it ok for you to sexually assault someone?
• Mrdev4 16y ago
  HN is a starting to feel like the tribal region of Pakistan.To make a assumption of guilt based on a blog post is ridiculous.
• sheena 16y ago
  I'd recommend reading through some of the comments on http://www.metafilter.com/85667/Hi-Whatcha-reading http://www.metafilter.com/85667/Hi-Whatcha-reading for some perspectives on how men and women experience the world very differently in many cases. While the general tenor of discussion gets a bit strident and I don't agree with a good deal of what's being said, it's very relevant to several comments in this thread. It seems to me always worth trying to understand how the world looks through other people's eyes.
  • silverlake 16y ago
    Wow. The strident comments actually turned my OFF on the whole discussion. I resolve to continue not caring about the subject.
• swaits 16y ago
  Is it just me, or was there not a lot of "Apache stuff" going on at the Apache con?
• yason 16y ago
  An immense repository of good background information on all the numerous dynamics involved in situations such as a rape: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/rape.html http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/rape.html
  • lizzard 16y ago
    That's really horrible victim-blaming site. It also presents men as out-of-control animals. Sort of rape-robots who have to be placated at all times so as not to lose their thin veneer of civility.
• iuguy 16y ago
  While I understand that the author is extremely upset, afraid (and right to be so), I think naming the guy on her blog is a bit of a dick move. If this happened and it affects her then she should report it to the police who will investigate and if sufficient evidence is found press charges. If she isn't going to do that, then a guy gets accused of this without any opportunity to defend himself (regardless of whether or not she's telling the truth, if accused of something he should be called to account and should be able to defend himself). Instead anyone googling for his name is going to hit a ton of blogs accusing him of being the kind of guy that would commit sexual assault. I sincerely hope that the girl in question gets all the support and help she needs, but if she believes that his activities constituted sexual assault she should call the cops, not just accuse someone of things on the Internet.
• freiheit 16y ago
  Bit of commentary from somebody who was there (but didn't see anything): http://journal.paul.querna.org/articles/2010/11/06/disappointed/ http://journal.paul.querna.org/articles/2010/11/06/disappoin...
• jules 16y ago
  A lot of people here are only considering whether what she says is true or not. I do not think it's necessarily so black and white. Let me explain. One one side, there is the possibility that he came to her out of the blue, tried to kiss her, and put his hands in her pants. One the other side, there is the possibility that she is consciously lying about all this (the people arguing that this is a possibility mention previous cases of false accusations). Now, there are three very important things to consider: alcohol, communication and memory. About memory: Memory is not as robust as people think it is, I learned this many years ago. When I was a small kid my dad accused me of destroying some plants he was growing indoors. At first I said "no I didn't do it", but then he explained that that could not be the case because I was the only one who likes to pick leaves off plants (which was true). I still persisted that I didn't do it. The next day however, I remembered quite clearly that I was picking the leaves off his plants. So I apologized. And he planted new plants. These new plants got destroyed too, and we discovered that it was the work of mice. Telling the difference between a real memory and a memory of a dream is very hard. So what happened to me was that I remembered something that (1) was completely the opposite of what actually happened (2) it was a memory that portrayed myself in a negative light, and the mind usually tries to remember things so that they show yourself in a positive light. So it seems very unlikely to me that such a completely fake memory could enter my mind. Yet it did. I can definitely imagine that a memory was altered from "he touched me on my clothes" to "he tried to put his hand in my pants". Especially if you're upset about what happened, and then dream about it. Or perhaps she wasn't as clear about telling him to go away as she remembers. Note that I'm not saying that I believe that this is what happened. I am merely saying that it is a possibility that memory wasn't 100% accurate. About communication: It is possible that she flirted with him (she even mentions that she flirted with guys in the post), and he thought that she was attracted to him. Alcohol: obviously some things happen when people are drunk that wouldn't have happened when they're not. And it doesn't improve memory either. So in addition to the stories: (1) He came to her out of the blue, tried to kiss her, and put his hands in her pants. And: (2) She is consciously lying about all this. This is also a possibility: A girl flirted with a guy. Later that evening, after a few too many beers, the guy went to the girl and tried to kiss her. She pushed him away, but then he put his hands on her hips at the edge of her pants. For that matter, everything between (1) and (2) is possible. So please do not just consider "Guilty" vs "Consciously lying" as the only possibilities.
• Mrdev4 16y ago
  http://pauloflaherty.com/2010/11/06/what-about-the-other-side-of-the-noirin-shirley-accusation/ http://pauloflaherty.com/2010/11/06/what-about-the-other-sid...
• deleted 16y ago
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• petenixey 16y ago
  In 1940's Alabama a young black man grasps the breasts of a white girl as they get drunk together late one night in a bar. The girl goes home shocked and crying and tells her Daddy who rouses up an angry mob to march down to the mans house, pull him from his home and lynch him in front of his family. Two wrongs, one tragedy.