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Have you wondered why extremely successful cultures (Christian, Muslim) have/had rules against public nudity? I had, and my (layman) conclusions were that publi

by badpun 8y ago

Have you wondered why extremely successful cultures (Christian, Muslim) have/had rules against public nudity? I had, and my (layman) conclusions were that public nudity creates too much sexual tension, and that is bad for stability of society. Hence, societies just function better without public nudity.

ytqaz 8y ago
That's what's causing the downfall of western society: forgetting that we owe everything to Christianity.
- badpun 8y ago
  That’s not my point. My point is that there’s plenty of crappy/failed cultures (tribes in jungles etc.) that allowed public nudity, but not a single successful one did. Maybe there’s something to it.
  - ytqaz 8y ago
    The psychology of shame and decorum, probably.
    - badpun 8y ago
      How does "shame and decorum" translate to success? Not to mention the fact that most likely all cultures, successful or not, have shame, as it's a direct consequence of having morals (and when you cross them, you feel ashamed).
  - hopler 8y ago
    You are calling Germany a crappy failed jungle tribe?
- dang 8y ago
  Religious flamewar will get you banned here. Please don't post like that to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
badpun 8y ago
A question for downvoters: how am I wrong?
matwood 8y ago
Without any evidence to back up your claim, this is simply a case of correlation != causation. If we follow your example, then the subjugation of women also leads to a better functioning society. Do you think that is also true? Going back to the nudity example, have you ever been to a topless beach? As an American who grew up in the religious south, my first trip to a topless beach in Europe was interesting for a bit but then just became normal. There was not any growing 'sexual tension'. I have friends who are nudists and they say the same thing. It becomes normal quickly, and then it's not even a thing.
- badpun 8y ago
  > Without any evidence to back up your claim, this is simply a case of correlation != causation. If we follow your example, then the subjugation of women also leads to a better functioning society. It's a bit stronger than that, because not only all successful cultures banned public nudity - also all cultures that tried public nudity failed. Re: topless beach - going to a topless beach once a while vs living in a society where everybody around you is naked all the time are two different things. Imagine a workplace where your female colleagues (if you're a straight male) are naked. There's a reason why some of the best schools in the world still separate pupils by sex.
  - zozbot123 8y ago
    > Imagine a workplace where your ... colleagues are naked. I just imagined that - and indeed, you're right that the possibility is quite offensive to my personal taste, and even frankly disquieting. But whereas you might try to explain this as the result of "too much sexual tension", I would instead place the blame on its very opposite. (And the fact that the colleagues might be of the gender I'm occasionally attracted to does not improve things one bit.)
int_19h 8y ago
Have you wondered why extremely successful cultures today are the ones that tend to be less rather than more prudish?
- badpun 8y ago
  I'd say the weakening of prudishness is recent phenomena and it's too soon for it to have an impact on society's success. We'd need to wait a couple hundred years to see where it leads.
- sydd 8y ago
  Not true, the US is quite prudish and successful. The OP I'd a fine example; if Google would be French or Japanese I doubt this would be an issue.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    US is far less prudish than median. If you compare it to other developed countries, sure, it's on the more prudish end. But if you compare it to most everywhere else, it's a whole different story. For example, Sayyid Qutb - the grandfather of modern Salafism - became radicalized after visiting US in 1940s, and observing its culture. Here's how he describes it in his writings: "The American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs -- and she shows all this and does not hide it." "They danced to the tunes of the gramophone, and the dance floor was replete with tapping feet, enticing legs, arms wrapped around waists, lips pressed to lips, and chests pressed to chests. The atmosphere was full of desire."
qazwse_ 8y ago
A brief reading of Wikipedia states that the ancient Egyptians and Greeks didn't have much against nudity. Minimal clothing was worn in Egypt. And the Greeks even said that other countries disliked their nakedness: "generally in countries which are subject to the barbarians, the custom is held to be dishonourable; lovers of youths share the evil repute in which philosophy and naked sports are held, because they are inimical to tyranny;" Edit: Reading further, it's saying that public topless-ness was common in Japan until the American occupation after WWII, so there's a more recent example as well.

by badpun 8y ago

ytqaz 8y ago

That's what's causing the downfall of western society: forgetting that we owe everything to Christianity.

badpun 8y ago
That’s not my point. My point is that there’s plenty of crappy/failed cultures (tribes in jungles etc.) that allowed public nudity, but not a single successful one did. Maybe there’s something to it.
- ytqaz 8y ago
  The psychology of shame and decorum, probably.
  - badpun 8y ago
    How does "shame and decorum" translate to success? Not to mention the fact that most likely all cultures, successful or not, have shame, as it's a direct consequence of having morals (and when you cross them, you feel ashamed).
- hopler 8y ago
  You are calling Germany a crappy failed jungle tribe?
dang 8y ago
Religious flamewar will get you banned here. Please don't post like that to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

badpun 8y ago

A question for downvoters: how am I wrong?

matwood 8y ago

Without any evidence to back up your claim, this is simply a case of correlation != causation. If we follow your example, then the subjugation of women also leads to a better functioning society. Do you think that is also true? Going back to the nudity example, have you ever been to a topless beach? As an American who grew up in the religious south, my first trip to a topless beach in Europe was interesting for a bit but then just became normal. There was not any growing 'sexual tension'. I have friends who are nudists and they say the same thing. It becomes normal quickly, and then it's not even a thing.

badpun 8y ago
> Without any evidence to back up your claim, this is simply a case of correlation != causation. If we follow your example, then the subjugation of women also leads to a better functioning society. It's a bit stronger than that, because not only all successful cultures banned public nudity - also all cultures that tried public nudity failed. Re: topless beach - going to a topless beach once a while vs living in a society where everybody around you is naked all the time are two different things. Imagine a workplace where your female colleagues (if you're a straight male) are naked. There's a reason why some of the best schools in the world still separate pupils by sex.
- zozbot123 8y ago
  > Imagine a workplace where your ... colleagues are naked. I just imagined that - and indeed, you're right that the possibility is quite offensive to my personal taste, and even frankly disquieting. But whereas you might try to explain this as the result of "too much sexual tension", I would instead place the blame on its very opposite. (And the fact that the colleagues might be of the gender I'm occasionally attracted to does not improve things one bit.)

int_19h 8y ago

Have you wondered why extremely successful cultures today are the ones that tend to be less rather than more prudish?

badpun 8y ago
I'd say the weakening of prudishness is recent phenomena and it's too soon for it to have an impact on society's success. We'd need to wait a couple hundred years to see where it leads.
sydd 8y ago
Not true, the US is quite prudish and successful. The OP I'd a fine example; if Google would be French or Japanese I doubt this would be an issue.
- int_19h 8y ago
  US is far less prudish than median. If you compare it to other developed countries, sure, it's on the more prudish end. But if you compare it to most everywhere else, it's a whole different story. For example, Sayyid Qutb - the grandfather of modern Salafism - became radicalized after visiting US in 1940s, and observing its culture. Here's how he describes it in his writings: "The American girl is well acquainted with her body's seductive capacity. She knows it lies in the face, and in expressive eyes, and thirsty lips. She knows seductiveness lies in the round breasts, the full buttocks, and in the shapely thighs, sleek legs -- and she shows all this and does not hide it." "They danced to the tunes of the gramophone, and the dance floor was replete with tapping feet, enticing legs, arms wrapped around waists, lips pressed to lips, and chests pressed to chests. The atmosphere was full of desire."

qazwse_ 8y ago

A brief reading of Wikipedia states that the ancient Egyptians and Greeks didn't have much against nudity. Minimal clothing was worn in Egypt. And the Greeks even said that other countries disliked their nakedness: "generally in countries which are subject to the barbarians, the custom is held to be dishonourable; lovers of youths share the evil repute in which philosophy and naked sports are held, because they are inimical to tyranny;" Edit: Reading further, it's saying that public topless-ness was common in Japan until the American occupation after WWII, so there's a more recent example as well.