8 ms·

Conjoined twins who share a brain

111 points by liuhenry 16y ago

liuhenry 16y ago
If they share sensory input and even thoughts, are they separate people with distinct personalities or one person with a split personality?
- AndyKelley 16y ago
  What's the difference?
iuguy 16y ago
Interesting. If one of them can distinctly originate a thought separate to the other then it's possible to say that they're separate people. Where it gets really messed up is when you look at people who've had major parts of their brain removed. I remember reading about a man who had half his brain removed and was able to function almost perfectly after therapy. If you were able to take half of someone's brain out, then put that half into another person (who you'd removed the full brain from) would that make them two separate people or still one?
- JshWright 16y ago
  You can't just remove an arbitrary portion of the brain and still survive. There are bits of your brain that aren't duplicated, can't be bisected, and are absolutely necessary for survival. So while it's an interesting question, it's impossible in practice (even if we had the capability of "reattaching" a portion of the brain).
  - iuguy 16y ago
    Wait, are you inguardian's Josh Wright? If so, hi - big fan of your work. If not, show me your work and I'm sure I'll become a big fan :) Thankyou for forcing me to google the wonderful world of hemispheroctomy. Check out these bad boys: http://technorati.com/lifestyle/family/article/girl-has-half-her-brain-removed/ http://technorati.com/lifestyle/family/article/girl-has-half... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836175,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836175,00.h... I'm happy to accept anything you post on the opposite side, I just found these stories interesting.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
TheSOB88 16y ago
It seems, as with many other things, everyone wants to see this as a black-and-white issue: "Are they one people or two people? They can share thoughts!" We're of course not used to it, but the fact is there's a continuum here. They are more linked than any other two people, but they do have separate brains, with separate connections. This is an example of an issue where you just can't pigeonhole them into one or the other.
- jerf 16y ago
  Another thing is that we can't help but imagine what it would be like if we ourselves were today suddenly stuck with someone else like that, but that's not how they will experience life; they will be growing up like that, with no experience of any other life.
  - liuhenry 16y ago
    That's an interesting point. I'm reminded of the way we perceive colors. We may see completely different things as "green", but because they've been given that linguistic label, we can identify them as the same. However, if I see red when you see green, it's fundamentally impossible to explain or imagine that. This being Hacker News, however, I think there are broader implications. Understanding what Tatiana and Krista experience may prove invaluable if we develop some sort of direct neural interface. It's already been shown that we can adapt to synthetic limbs or additional sensory inputs. (Interesting experiments done with magnetometer sensing http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/en/index.html http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/en/index.html) However, I feel like this could prove it possible to directly inject data into the brain, since everything we experience is from sensory input. Basically, is telepathy fundamentally possible? Or would the raw neural data be incompatible across brains? I think these twins could explain a lot about that.
    - jerf 16y ago
      Unfortunately, these twins can't answer the question of neural data incompatibility, because, again, they grew up together. My guess is that when we start inserting info directly into the brain, the most immediately successful way will be to hijack existing inputs directly (vision, audio, etc), and the most successful long-term approach will simply be to just lob the data in in some suitable encoding with some suitable high-quality feedback and let the neurons do the hard work.
seunosewa 16y ago
Why is the article so inconclusive about whether or not they can hear each other's thoughts? Can't someone just ask them?
- liuhenry 16y ago
  Well, the problem is, how would they know? I wonder if they can differentiate between their own thoughts and their twin's thoughts - they could all just pop into both of their heads, just like a "natural" thought. Also, I'm not sure if they would understand the difference, since they've never experienced anything else to compare it to.
  - icegreentea 16y ago
    You seperate the two's sensory perception as far as possible (blindfold, ear plug, make sure they can't touch), tell one to think of something, and ask the other about it?
    - liuhenry 16y ago
      I think they share sensory perception, it was mentioned that tickling one will make the other laugh, and a few other things. If one imagines something, though, I'm not sure if the other receives it. Could possibly be that sensory input is doubled, but we don't know about generating thoughts. Also - what would it be like to see from two sets of eyes?!
      - icegreentea 16y ago
        Bizarre?? Sorry to keep chaining replies, but it got me thinking... what happens when one sleeps and the other is awake? You could try that! Presumably the asleep one can't 'listen in'. Just tell the awake one to think of something when the other awakes (but dont say anything about it), and then ask the other! Hell, what happens when one dreams while the other is awake! INCEPTION.
        16y ago
klbarry 16y ago
Wow. This is so absolutely fascinating. I only wish they could grow up faster so we could see if they really can read each-others thoughts, or if it's just hopeful pattern making by the adults.
kls 16y ago
My first thought was imagine the perspective on the world two people with a communication link between brains would have. It really provides an interesting prospect for the arts or sciences. These girls are naturally going to see and experience the world far different than the rest of us. Their unique experience could be very valuable to humanity, only time will tell.
Afton 16y ago
I admit my first thought was "Wait...How did they put that hoodie on?" The simple mechanics of everyday life are what fascinate me about this one.
- SoftwareMaven 16y ago
  I was thinking the same thing. Dressing wiggly, noodly babies is hard enough, much less without being able to pull clothes over their heads.
  - Retric 16y ago
    Using a sewing machine to add zipers to everything.
    - Afton 16y ago
      check the photo on the left. No zipper.
      - Retric 16y ago
        Normally you add such things down the back so they look more normal and less distracting when talking to people.
        Afton 16y ago
        That simultaneously makes sense, and is an odd thing to know. Thank for the insight.
- pbhjpbhj 16y ago
  >I admit my first thought was "Wait...How did they put that hoodie on?" Stretchy head holes?
noonespecial 16y ago
My brain stalled for about 20 minutes just trying to get some thought around all of the implications of this. Then it was gradually replaced by a the sinking feeling one gets when watching tremendous opportunity lost. Her husband, Doug, drums up business. “We deliver food, flowers, whatever anybody needs,” she says. “We charge $5 for delivery in town.” Money is tight. Each time they get ahead, there’s a financially draining trip to Vancouver. What!? Some of the greatest leaps in understanding about how our brains work, not to mention untold wonders in technological advancement might be presented to us on a platter via this once in a multi-generation opportunity and they're housed in some crap rental trying to deliver flowers to make ends meet??? This family should immediately be declared a national treasure and have the full support of the Canadian government. Expensive? Morally nebulous? Look, we yanks will build a multi-100-million dollar prison and get over the moral gray-ness of water-boarding just to find a few bombs. Helping out what might turn out to be a simple disabled pair of twins in exchange for knowledge that may improve humanity forever shouldn't be that much of a stretch. I know this might be an unpopular opinion and attract downvotes, but I just got a +70 for what I though was a throwaway one-liner. If that's how the karma flows, then bring it.
- nezumi 16y ago
  They should, and I imagine they do, have enough support to ensure the children are clothed, fed, schooled and enjoy a minimum standard of living. However, incentivizing childhood disability opens up a whole new and rather dangerous gray area I think.
  - noonespecial 16y ago
    Perhaps, but I'd venture that due to the rare and unique opportunity presented here, this moral hazard should be braved. I doubt a line of twins joined at the brain will show up looking for handouts.
    - nezumi 16y ago
      True, I'm thinking more of the dullards who might go from squeezing out more kids so they can collect the welfare, to squeezing out disabled kids in the hope of a bigger payout. It's perverse, but it's hardly as if the first case is rare. I'm still assuming basic disability and child benefits of course.
itistoday 16y ago
Anyone else completely baffled by how they got their hoodies on?? The photo on the right doesn't show any buttons and the opening for the neck seems way too small for them to fit their whole body through it.
cubix 16y ago
You can watch the documentary here: http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/Doc_Zone/1242299559/ID=1616373031 http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/Doc_Zone/1242299559/ID=16163...
100k 16y ago
Fascinating! Twins, being genetically identical and raised in the same environment, already seem uncannily similar sometimes. Imagine what they will be like, with they ability to share each other's sensory experiences...
cmurphycode 16y ago
This is fascinating. It reminded me of another documentary on conjoined twins who are fused partway down the spine. Almost the complement of these twins! The wiki page for the other girls has information and links: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Abigail_and_Brittany_Hensel https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Abigail_and_B...

111 points by liuhenry 16y ago

If they share sensory input and even thoughts, are they separate people with distinct personalities or one person with a split personality?

AndyKelley 16y ago
What's the difference?

iuguy 16y ago

Interesting. If one of them can distinctly originate a thought separate to the other then it's possible to say that they're separate people. Where it gets really messed up is when you look at people who've had major parts of their brain removed. I remember reading about a man who had half his brain removed and was able to function almost perfectly after therapy. If you were able to take half of someone's brain out, then put that half into another person (who you'd removed the full brain from) would that make them two separate people or still one?

JshWright 16y ago
You can't just remove an arbitrary portion of the brain and still survive. There are bits of your brain that aren't duplicated, can't be bisected, and are absolutely necessary for survival. So while it's an interesting question, it's impossible in practice (even if we had the capability of "reattaching" a portion of the brain).
- iuguy 16y ago
  Wait, are you inguardian's Josh Wright? If so, hi - big fan of your work. If not, show me your work and I'm sure I'll become a big fan :) Thankyou for forcing me to google the wonderful world of hemispheroctomy. Check out these bad boys: http://technorati.com/lifestyle/family/article/girl-has-half-her-brain-removed/ http://technorati.com/lifestyle/family/article/girl-has-half... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836175,00.html http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,836175,00.h... I'm happy to accept anything you post on the opposite side, I just found these stories interesting.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

TheSOB88 16y ago

It seems, as with many other things, everyone wants to see this as a black-and-white issue: "Are they one people or two people? They can share thoughts!" We're of course not used to it, but the fact is there's a continuum here. They are more linked than any other two people, but they do have separate brains, with separate connections. This is an example of an issue where you just can't pigeonhole them into one or the other.

jerf 16y ago
Another thing is that we can't help but imagine what it would be like if we ourselves were today suddenly stuck with someone else like that, but that's not how they will experience life; they will be growing up like that, with no experience of any other life.
- liuhenry 16y ago
  That's an interesting point. I'm reminded of the way we perceive colors. We may see completely different things as "green", but because they've been given that linguistic label, we can identify them as the same. However, if I see red when you see green, it's fundamentally impossible to explain or imagine that. This being Hacker News, however, I think there are broader implications. Understanding what Tatiana and Krista experience may prove invaluable if we develop some sort of direct neural interface. It's already been shown that we can adapt to synthetic limbs or additional sensory inputs. (Interesting experiments done with magnetometer sensing http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/en/index.html http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/en/index.html) However, I feel like this could prove it possible to directly inject data into the brain, since everything we experience is from sensory input. Basically, is telepathy fundamentally possible? Or would the raw neural data be incompatible across brains? I think these twins could explain a lot about that.
  - jerf 16y ago
    Unfortunately, these twins can't answer the question of neural data incompatibility, because, again, they grew up together. My guess is that when we start inserting info directly into the brain, the most immediately successful way will be to hijack existing inputs directly (vision, audio, etc), and the most successful long-term approach will simply be to just lob the data in in some suitable encoding with some suitable high-quality feedback and let the neurons do the hard work.

seunosewa 16y ago

Why is the article so inconclusive about whether or not they can hear each other's thoughts? Can't someone just ask them?

liuhenry 16y ago
Well, the problem is, how would they know? I wonder if they can differentiate between their own thoughts and their twin's thoughts - they could all just pop into both of their heads, just like a "natural" thought. Also, I'm not sure if they would understand the difference, since they've never experienced anything else to compare it to.
- icegreentea 16y ago
  You seperate the two's sensory perception as far as possible (blindfold, ear plug, make sure they can't touch), tell one to think of something, and ask the other about it?
  - liuhenry 16y ago
    I think they share sensory perception, it was mentioned that tickling one will make the other laugh, and a few other things. If one imagines something, though, I'm not sure if the other receives it. Could possibly be that sensory input is doubled, but we don't know about generating thoughts. Also - what would it be like to see from two sets of eyes?!
    - icegreentea 16y ago
      Bizarre?? Sorry to keep chaining replies, but it got me thinking... what happens when one sleeps and the other is awake? You could try that! Presumably the asleep one can't 'listen in'. Just tell the awake one to think of something when the other awakes (but dont say anything about it), and then ask the other! Hell, what happens when one dreams while the other is awake! INCEPTION.
      - 16y ago

klbarry 16y ago

Wow. This is so absolutely fascinating. I only wish they could grow up faster so we could see if they really can read each-others thoughts, or if it's just hopeful pattern making by the adults.

kls 16y ago

My first thought was imagine the perspective on the world two people with a communication link between brains would have. It really provides an interesting prospect for the arts or sciences. These girls are naturally going to see and experience the world far different than the rest of us. Their unique experience could be very valuable to humanity, only time will tell.

Afton 16y ago

I admit my first thought was "Wait...How did they put that hoodie on?" The simple mechanics of everyday life are what fascinate me about this one.

SoftwareMaven 16y ago
I was thinking the same thing. Dressing wiggly, noodly babies is hard enough, much less without being able to pull clothes over their heads.
- Retric 16y ago
  Using a sewing machine to add zipers to everything.
  - Afton 16y ago
    check the photo on the left. No zipper.
    - Retric 16y ago
      Normally you add such things down the back so they look more normal and less distracting when talking to people.
      - Afton 16y ago
        That simultaneously makes sense, and is an odd thing to know. Thank for the insight.
pbhjpbhj 16y ago
>I admit my first thought was "Wait...How did they put that hoodie on?" Stretchy head holes?

noonespecial 16y ago

My brain stalled for about 20 minutes just trying to get some thought around all of the implications of this. Then it was gradually replaced by a the sinking feeling one gets when watching tremendous opportunity lost. Her husband, Doug, drums up business. “We deliver food, flowers, whatever anybody needs,” she says. “We charge $5 for delivery in town.” Money is tight. Each time they get ahead, there’s a financially draining trip to Vancouver. What!? Some of the greatest leaps in understanding about how our brains work, not to mention untold wonders in technological advancement might be presented to us on a platter via this once in a multi-generation opportunity and they're housed in some crap rental trying to deliver flowers to make ends meet??? This family should immediately be declared a national treasure and have the full support of the Canadian government. Expensive? Morally nebulous? Look, we yanks will build a multi-100-million dollar prison and get over the moral gray-ness of water-boarding just to find a few bombs. Helping out what might turn out to be a simple disabled pair of twins in exchange for knowledge that may improve humanity forever shouldn't be that much of a stretch. I know this might be an unpopular opinion and attract downvotes, but I just got a +70 for what I though was a throwaway one-liner. If that's how the karma flows, then bring it.

nezumi 16y ago
They should, and I imagine they do, have enough support to ensure the children are clothed, fed, schooled and enjoy a minimum standard of living. However, incentivizing childhood disability opens up a whole new and rather dangerous gray area I think.
- noonespecial 16y ago
  Perhaps, but I'd venture that due to the rare and unique opportunity presented here, this moral hazard should be braved. I doubt a line of twins joined at the brain will show up looking for handouts.
  - nezumi 16y ago
    True, I'm thinking more of the dullards who might go from squeezing out more kids so they can collect the welfare, to squeezing out disabled kids in the hope of a bigger payout. It's perverse, but it's hardly as if the first case is rare. I'm still assuming basic disability and child benefits of course.

itistoday 16y ago

Anyone else completely baffled by how they got their hoodies on?? The photo on the right doesn't show any buttons and the opening for the neck seems way too small for them to fit their whole body through it.

cubix 16y ago

You can watch the documentary here: http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/Doc_Zone/1242299559/ID=1616373031 http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/Doc_Zone/1242299559/ID=16163...

100k 16y ago

Fascinating! Twins, being genetically identical and raised in the same environment, already seem uncannily similar sometimes. Imagine what they will be like, with they ability to share each other's sensory experiences...

cmurphycode 16y ago

This is fascinating. It reminded me of another documentary on conjoined twins who are fused partway down the spine. Almost the complement of these twins! The wiki page for the other girls has information and links: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Abigail_and_Brittany_Hensel https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Abigail_and_B...