6 ms·

Brave is a web browser that takes your money and claims to pay out to your favorite websites and content creators, but in most cases actually pays into a "user

Brave is a web browser that takes your money and claims to pay out to your favorite websites and content creators, but in most cases actually pays into a "user growth pool" that funds pyramid-shaped marketing (paying users to use the browser) and referral programs for partner content creators. How is that not fraud?

davidgerard 8y ago
> How is that not fraud? The answer appears to be "technically", and "sue if you think you're big enough".
- matt4077 8y ago
  Fraud is a criminal offense. It needs a prosecutor, not a plaintiff.
  - nradov 8y ago
    In the US legal system there are both criminal and civil forms of fraud. A plaintiff can sue for fraud in civil court, seeking damages or specific performance.
    - anticensor 8y ago
      Really? In Europe, if an offense has both civil and criminal forms, criminal courts are authorised for both forms of said offense, difference lying in procedure instead.
      - nradov 8y ago
        Yes really. I doubt that applies to all countries in Europe. The UK legal system is similar to the American one. US criminal courts can order defendants convicted of fraud to pay restitution to their victims.
- jblow 8y ago
  I would be interested in suing them if they have a page up for me. How do I tell if they do?
  - ivank 8y ago
    It looks like an in-browser thing: https://ludios.org/tmp/jon_blow-fs8.png https://ludios.org/tmp/jon_blow-fs8.png https://ludios.org/tmp/jon_blow2-fs8.png https://ludios.org/tmp/jon_blow2-fs8.png
    - brandnewlow 8y ago
      We're shipping changes tomorrow that will fix the problems with these overlays to make it clear unverified creators are not part of Brave Rewards and won't be receiving tips directly. You can read about them here: https://brave.com/rewards-update/ https://brave.com/rewards-update/
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - atomical 8y ago
    Is it okay if I tip you some BATs?
  - brandnewlow 8y ago
    We don't publish pages for creators at all. We did ship bad UI in our browser that didn't make it clear to opted in users that non-verified creators like yourself aren't part of Brave Rewards. We're pushing up fixes tomorrow that (we hope) make it a lot clearer: https://brave.com/rewards-update/ https://brave.com/rewards-update/ (Sidenote: Thank you for the Hedge Maze puzzles in the Keep. They were a gaming highlight for me last year.)
drcode 8y ago
Well, I guess the core question is whether their users understand the mechanism they are participating in when they pay their contribution. I don't see the problem of letting their users participate in such a mechanism as long as there is transparency about how it works and that the contribution system has some pretty significant limitations.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
brandnewlow 8y ago
We don't do that and don't aim to do that. We shipped some bad UI, got a bunch of flack for it, and are hustling to get it fixed and improved. You can read about what we're doing here: https://brave.com/rewards-update/ https://brave.com/rewards-update/ Thanks for caring about this being done in a respectful, thoughtful way. We'll keep trying to do better.

davidgerard 8y ago

> How is that not fraud? The answer appears to be "technically", and "sue if you think you're big enough".

matt4077 8y ago
Fraud is a criminal offense. It needs a prosecutor, not a plaintiff.
- nradov 8y ago
  In the US legal system there are both criminal and civil forms of fraud. A plaintiff can sue for fraud in civil court, seeking damages or specific performance.
  - anticensor 8y ago
    Really? In Europe, if an offense has both civil and criminal forms, criminal courts are authorised for both forms of said offense, difference lying in procedure instead.
    - nradov 8y ago
      Yes really. I doubt that applies to all countries in Europe. The UK legal system is similar to the American one. US criminal courts can order defendants convicted of fraud to pay restitution to their victims.
jblow 8y ago
I would be interested in suing them if they have a page up for me. How do I tell if they do?
- ivank 8y ago
  It looks like an in-browser thing: https://ludios.org/tmp/jon_blow-fs8.png https://ludios.org/tmp/jon_blow-fs8.png https://ludios.org/tmp/jon_blow2-fs8.png https://ludios.org/tmp/jon_blow2-fs8.png
  - brandnewlow 8y ago
    We're shipping changes tomorrow that will fix the problems with these overlays to make it clear unverified creators are not part of Brave Rewards and won't be receiving tips directly. You can read about them here: https://brave.com/rewards-update/ https://brave.com/rewards-update/
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- atomical 8y ago
  Is it okay if I tip you some BATs?
- brandnewlow 8y ago
  We don't publish pages for creators at all. We did ship bad UI in our browser that didn't make it clear to opted in users that non-verified creators like yourself aren't part of Brave Rewards. We're pushing up fixes tomorrow that (we hope) make it a lot clearer: https://brave.com/rewards-update/ https://brave.com/rewards-update/ (Sidenote: Thank you for the Hedge Maze puzzles in the Keep. They were a gaming highlight for me last year.)

drcode 8y ago

Well, I guess the core question is whether their users understand the mechanism they are participating in when they pay their contribution. I don't see the problem of letting their users participate in such a mechanism as long as there is transparency about how it works and that the contribution system has some pretty significant limitations.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

brandnewlow 8y ago

We don't do that and don't aim to do that. We shipped some bad UI, got a bunch of flack for it, and are hustling to get it fixed and improved. You can read about what we're doing here: https://brave.com/rewards-update/ https://brave.com/rewards-update/ Thanks for caring about this being done in a respectful, thoughtful way. We'll keep trying to do better.