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"More and more Chinese citizens are travelling abroad yet their beliefs in the "Chinese system" only gets re-affirmed by mistakenly thinking that China's succes

"More and more Chinese citizens are travelling abroad yet their beliefs in the "Chinese system" only gets re-affirmed by mistakenly thinking that China's success is completely dependent on authoritarianism." This is by far the scariest part. Even people who knowingly try to 'escape the system' still support it, as though 'the party = China'. I believe this problem exists a little bit in Europe where so many believe the EU = Europe, they use the terms interchangeably.

baby 8y ago
I think a lot of people (including me) want China to join the club of first world countries, not just economically, but also in terms of respect of human rights. How do you get there? By banning chinese products and heavily penalizing them? Or by inviting them to get their people richer and more educated? There's actually a very interesting kurzgesagt video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvskMHn0sqQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvskMHn0sqQ
- educationdata 8y ago
  "I think a lot of people (including me) want China to join the club of first world countries, not just economically, but also in terms of respect of human rights. " -- Really? A lot? I don't think so. My experience is Chinese middle class rarely care about human rights issues. Most of them are extremely cold blood. As long as their own family is not hurt, they don't care about human rights issues at all. As long as they can get rich and stay rich, they will praise the authoritarian regime.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    I didn’t read baby’s comment as meaning a lot of Chinese people want better human rights in China, I read it as a lot of people everywhere want that.
    - baby 8y ago
      This is what I meant, thanks.
  - rchaud 8y ago
    > My experience is Chinese middle class rarely care about human rights issues. Isn't this true for middle classes in most countries? Would there be any tangible benefit if the Chinese middle class made a symbolic show of supporting human rights (as is often done in the west), while their leaders continued to use their tax yuan to prop up polluting industries, bad working conditions, Uighur mass detentions?
    - ethbro 8y ago
      I'd say the 1960s Civil Rights movement in the US was primarily successful because it mobilized the middle class.
      - rchaud 8y ago
        I agree that that period was an outlier in terms of large-scale activism post-WW2. However, there was also the small matter of 50,000 dead draftees in Vietnam that propelled public anger. The US government had a vested interest in making policy changes that kept the peace, especially with the threat of an expansionist USSR on the horizon.
        wbl 8y ago
        You are getting the dates badly wrong. Voting rights act was 1965, opposition to the war was limited until Tet Offensive.
- yumraj 8y ago
  That's a rather native view, that unfortunately was shared by a lot of folks in the West. Ref: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-got-china-wrong https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-go...
- philwelch 8y ago
  > I think a lot of people (including me) want China to join the club of first world countries, not just economically, but also in terms of respect of human rights. How do you get there? Nobody knows because it hasn't been done. China, like Russia, is powerful enough that it will only become a free country if its rulers want to.
duxup 8y ago
I belive there were signs of a lot of Erdogan support among Turkish folks living abroad. For a long time I sort of assumed that the advantages of living in a democracy are sort of self evident (provided you live there), I apparently was wrong.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  Ignoring Turkish folks and Erdogan, the notion that living in a democracy has clear advantages is really propaganda. I've lived in an absolute monarchy with human rights violations. I can also list a number of democracies with human rights violations, as well as very poor infrastructure, poor economy, violence, etc. For many in the latter countries, they'll easily trade their democracy to get food, education for kids, and security. Some democracies do well. Others don't. It's not an indicator of quality of life, and Maslow's hierarchy of needs is largely applicable.
  - duxup 8y ago
    Good point. I guess I should specify that I was thinking of the "good democracies". I get there can be things people don't like about any of them, but I figured the trade offs between those and totalitarianism was self evident if you lived in one, I guess I was wrong.
    - BeetleB 8y ago
      >but I figured the trade offs between those and totalitarianism was self evident if you lived in one, I guess I was wrong. Have you lived in that totalitarianism, though? And are you aware of their perceptions of the shortcomings in your society? Speaking more broadly, though, how great you think life is under certain circumstances is a function of your model of the world, and thus your ideology (once you get beyond food, shelter and security). Another aspect I've found: People who come from a country with a lot of "problems" have developed their minds to be relatively tolerant/immune to them. But small issues in the country they move to are large for them, as they've not built mental defenses against them. Don't underestimate this aspect. I recall once when I was in school a conversation between two foreign students (from different countries). A was complaining about B's culture, and was itemizing the headaches. B countered with all the problems A's culture had. A responded with "Yeah, but I know how to deal with all those problems!"
ethbro 8y ago
> Even people who knowingly try to 'escape the system' still support it, as though 'the party = China'. Why do you think the CCP is so prickly about Taiwan? And to a lesser degree Hong Kong? They're living proof that other systems can work well for "China."
- ssnistfajen 8y ago
  Taiwan's relative economic and cultural power has declined significantly due to the PRC's growth. The ROC acted as an ideological counterweight to the PRC for many years but now the Taiwanese are too busy arguing with each other whether to even retain the "Chinese" identity. It's like some of them bought into the "CCP = the only China" idea as well.
  - philwelch 8y ago
    The ROC persisted under the premise that they were the temporarily dispossessed but still legitimate government of all of China. They're not, and they haven't been for decades, but they can't take the next logical step of reconstituting a Republic of Taiwan because PRC has threatened war in that scenario. America has a legal obligation to defend Taiwan, but PRC has threatened to use nuclear weapons to respond to any US intervention--"In the end you care more about Los Angeles than you do about Taipei". There's a clear long-term goal of destabilizing ROC and encouraging unification from the PRC side.
    - chillacy 8y ago
      It’s tragic because culturally I’ve heard Taiwan is more similar to China of old: KMT refugees fled to Taiwan from nearly every part of China, bringing their food and culture with them. And there was no cultural revolution in Taiwan, so they retain more of the politeness and traditions.
analyst74 8y ago
> More and more Chinese citizens are travelling abroad yet their beliefs in the "Chinese system" only gets re-affirmed To provide a more nuanced view, there are different reasons for this: - some see problems in other countries that China does not have - some faced racism or xenophobia. For the more privileged ones, it might be the first time in their lives to get discriminated against, and they respond by becoming extra nationalistic. - some simply don't see a way to participate in the western system, so they pragmatically buy into the Chinese system. Keep in mind that while it's hard today for a foreign company to operate in China, it's also not easy for a Chinese company to succeed in western markets, especially more competitive ones like US. - some are being nationalistic for publicity.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  I don't have many Chinese friends who would speak in this frank a manner with me, but the two that I do have definitely think like this. They see problems and bigotry that they never had to deal with until they got here, and I think that is what created the knee-jerk reaction to believe they need the Chinese state. (The worst part is that one is Taiwanese! Not even Chinese. And she thinks of it as insurance. She feels like things for her in the West could turn sour in a hurry, so she needs an "out" so to speak.)
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    There's a difference between seeing China as a 'natural homeland' and totally supporting the CCP and all it's inanity. I don't doubt for a second that people might be 'very proud' of their culture. For better or worse - that's normal. But to be proud of the bad stuff, even when they are literally living abroad for those reasons - now that is just weird.
  - analyst74 8y ago
    I generally don't share those things with my American friends either, many probably don't understand, and for those who do, it just unnecessarily makes them feel guilty about things they have no control over. So applaud you to be interested in those nuances and being empathetic!
avmich 8y ago
> I believe this problem exists a little bit in Europe where so many believe the EU = Europe, they use the terms interchangeably. I'm genuinely curious, in what sense EU = Europe is wrong? Granted, not all European countries are members of EU, but EU is a big block with several significant majorities among their constituents - a big population, economy, living style, culture, history, especially if UK could be included. Why it's significantly wrong to approximate Europe as EU?
- mistermann 8y ago
  All of Europe doesn't have a homogeneous culture or history is one major issue.
  - monocasa 8y ago
    Neither does China
    - mistermann 8y ago
      They have the same government though, and far less diversity.
      - a11595 8y ago
        When I lived in France, I had a buddy doing his PhD in French history. He was from Hong Kong. The difference between him and a Chinese mainlander is at species level. The people who grew up in the large mainland cities are educated, writing code for the phones discussed in this thread, and architecting skyscrapers - they speak multiple languages and wear suits. The ex-farmers in those cities poop in the middle of the street, out in the open. others then pump that poop out of the sewers, boil it, and use the floating oil on top to cook with and sell to restaurant. I would agree that Europe is more diverse that China. Eastern Europe + Russia is not more diverse than China. Neither is Western Europe + Iceland. And China is 10 times more diverse than the states. source: Russian born, US raised. Also lived in Spain, France, Japan. Been to Every EU and European country, and ~80 countries total. Wife is Chinese, not from the mainland.
wangii 8y ago
no, the scariest part is this: anywhere in this world there are people are scared of different ideas and believes; there are people believe by the power of their perfect system no other opinion worthy of existence. now you may start to explain any idea other than yours not really ideas.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  > Since no one is capable of forming his own opinion without the benefit of a multitude of opinions held by others, the rule of public opinion endangers even the opinion of those few who may have the strength not to share it. This is one of the reasons for the curiously sterile negativism of all opinions which oppose a popularly acclaimed tyranny. [...] public opinion, by virtue of its unanimity, provokes a unanimous opposition and thus kills true opinions everywhere. -- Hannah Arendt
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Ah yes, the relativism argument. Surprise! Almost nobody believes the West is perfect (or any other system) is perfect. Shoot - I'll bet you could get a lot of people to buy into an authoritarian system that maintained peace. But the issue of Han nationalism which extends to the extermination of Tibetans, to the incarceration of 100's of thousands of Uighers etc., to the total lack of democracy ... combined with the fact that the system is still hugely corrupt ... I mean, it would be one thing if China were at least a well ordered machine, but it's not, there's corruption from top to bottom which completely undermines any legitimacy in whatever 'system' they have. Summary: 1) Nobody really thinks any system is perfect. 2) Most people would prefer the rule of law, basic democracy, and low levels of corruption, and at least basic human rights. Those are almost universal.
  - redial 8y ago
    > 1) Nobody really thinks any system is perfect. You should have stopped there. Basic democracy is so ambiguous really anything qualifies, and by all accounts, China has basic democracy. In fact, they have infinitely more democracy pre-revolution France did. And the fact that even in the world of today, more than 2000 years after the Greeks, democracy is not universal prove your second point is not such a sure thing as you wanted it to be.

baby 8y ago

I think a lot of people (including me) want China to join the club of first world countries, not just economically, but also in terms of respect of human rights. How do you get there? By banning chinese products and heavily penalizing them? Or by inviting them to get their people richer and more educated? There's actually a very interesting kurzgesagt video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvskMHn0sqQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvskMHn0sqQ

educationdata 8y ago
"I think a lot of people (including me) want China to join the club of first world countries, not just economically, but also in terms of respect of human rights. " -- Really? A lot? I don't think so. My experience is Chinese middle class rarely care about human rights issues. Most of them are extremely cold blood. As long as their own family is not hurt, they don't care about human rights issues at all. As long as they can get rich and stay rich, they will praise the authoritarian regime.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  I didn’t read baby’s comment as meaning a lot of Chinese people want better human rights in China, I read it as a lot of people everywhere want that.
  - baby 8y ago
    This is what I meant, thanks.
- rchaud 8y ago
  > My experience is Chinese middle class rarely care about human rights issues. Isn't this true for middle classes in most countries? Would there be any tangible benefit if the Chinese middle class made a symbolic show of supporting human rights (as is often done in the west), while their leaders continued to use their tax yuan to prop up polluting industries, bad working conditions, Uighur mass detentions?
  - ethbro 8y ago
    I'd say the 1960s Civil Rights movement in the US was primarily successful because it mobilized the middle class.
    - rchaud 8y ago
      I agree that that period was an outlier in terms of large-scale activism post-WW2. However, there was also the small matter of 50,000 dead draftees in Vietnam that propelled public anger. The US government had a vested interest in making policy changes that kept the peace, especially with the threat of an expansionist USSR on the horizon.
      - wbl 8y ago
        You are getting the dates badly wrong. Voting rights act was 1965, opposition to the war was limited until Tet Offensive.
yumraj 8y ago
That's a rather native view, that unfortunately was shared by a lot of folks in the West. Ref: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-got-china-wrong https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/03/01/how-the-west-go...
philwelch 8y ago
> I think a lot of people (including me) want China to join the club of first world countries, not just economically, but also in terms of respect of human rights. How do you get there? Nobody knows because it hasn't been done. China, like Russia, is powerful enough that it will only become a free country if its rulers want to.

duxup 8y ago

I belive there were signs of a lot of Erdogan support among Turkish folks living abroad. For a long time I sort of assumed that the advantages of living in a democracy are sort of self evident (provided you live there), I apparently was wrong.

BeetleB 8y ago
Ignoring Turkish folks and Erdogan, the notion that living in a democracy has clear advantages is really propaganda. I've lived in an absolute monarchy with human rights violations. I can also list a number of democracies with human rights violations, as well as very poor infrastructure, poor economy, violence, etc. For many in the latter countries, they'll easily trade their democracy to get food, education for kids, and security. Some democracies do well. Others don't. It's not an indicator of quality of life, and Maslow's hierarchy of needs is largely applicable.
- duxup 8y ago
  Good point. I guess I should specify that I was thinking of the "good democracies". I get there can be things people don't like about any of them, but I figured the trade offs between those and totalitarianism was self evident if you lived in one, I guess I was wrong.
  - BeetleB 8y ago
    >but I figured the trade offs between those and totalitarianism was self evident if you lived in one, I guess I was wrong. Have you lived in that totalitarianism, though? And are you aware of their perceptions of the shortcomings in your society? Speaking more broadly, though, how great you think life is under certain circumstances is a function of your model of the world, and thus your ideology (once you get beyond food, shelter and security). Another aspect I've found: People who come from a country with a lot of "problems" have developed their minds to be relatively tolerant/immune to them. But small issues in the country they move to are large for them, as they've not built mental defenses against them. Don't underestimate this aspect. I recall once when I was in school a conversation between two foreign students (from different countries). A was complaining about B's culture, and was itemizing the headaches. B countered with all the problems A's culture had. A responded with "Yeah, but I know how to deal with all those problems!"

ethbro 8y ago

> Even people who knowingly try to 'escape the system' still support it, as though 'the party = China'. Why do you think the CCP is so prickly about Taiwan? And to a lesser degree Hong Kong? They're living proof that other systems can work well for "China."

ssnistfajen 8y ago
Taiwan's relative economic and cultural power has declined significantly due to the PRC's growth. The ROC acted as an ideological counterweight to the PRC for many years but now the Taiwanese are too busy arguing with each other whether to even retain the "Chinese" identity. It's like some of them bought into the "CCP = the only China" idea as well.
- philwelch 8y ago
  The ROC persisted under the premise that they were the temporarily dispossessed but still legitimate government of all of China. They're not, and they haven't been for decades, but they can't take the next logical step of reconstituting a Republic of Taiwan because PRC has threatened war in that scenario. America has a legal obligation to defend Taiwan, but PRC has threatened to use nuclear weapons to respond to any US intervention--"In the end you care more about Los Angeles than you do about Taipei". There's a clear long-term goal of destabilizing ROC and encouraging unification from the PRC side.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    It’s tragic because culturally I’ve heard Taiwan is more similar to China of old: KMT refugees fled to Taiwan from nearly every part of China, bringing their food and culture with them. And there was no cultural revolution in Taiwan, so they retain more of the politeness and traditions.

analyst74 8y ago

> More and more Chinese citizens are travelling abroad yet their beliefs in the "Chinese system" only gets re-affirmed To provide a more nuanced view, there are different reasons for this: - some see problems in other countries that China does not have - some faced racism or xenophobia. For the more privileged ones, it might be the first time in their lives to get discriminated against, and they respond by becoming extra nationalistic. - some simply don't see a way to participate in the western system, so they pragmatically buy into the Chinese system. Keep in mind that while it's hard today for a foreign company to operate in China, it's also not easy for a Chinese company to succeed in western markets, especially more competitive ones like US. - some are being nationalistic for publicity.

bilbo0s 8y ago
I don't have many Chinese friends who would speak in this frank a manner with me, but the two that I do have definitely think like this. They see problems and bigotry that they never had to deal with until they got here, and I think that is what created the knee-jerk reaction to believe they need the Chinese state. (The worst part is that one is Taiwanese! Not even Chinese. And she thinks of it as insurance. She feels like things for her in the West could turn sour in a hurry, so she needs an "out" so to speak.)
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  There's a difference between seeing China as a 'natural homeland' and totally supporting the CCP and all it's inanity. I don't doubt for a second that people might be 'very proud' of their culture. For better or worse - that's normal. But to be proud of the bad stuff, even when they are literally living abroad for those reasons - now that is just weird.
- analyst74 8y ago
  I generally don't share those things with my American friends either, many probably don't understand, and for those who do, it just unnecessarily makes them feel guilty about things they have no control over. So applaud you to be interested in those nuances and being empathetic!

avmich 8y ago

> I believe this problem exists a little bit in Europe where so many believe the EU = Europe, they use the terms interchangeably. I'm genuinely curious, in what sense EU = Europe is wrong? Granted, not all European countries are members of EU, but EU is a big block with several significant majorities among their constituents - a big population, economy, living style, culture, history, especially if UK could be included. Why it's significantly wrong to approximate Europe as EU?

mistermann 8y ago
All of Europe doesn't have a homogeneous culture or history is one major issue.
- monocasa 8y ago
  Neither does China
  - mistermann 8y ago
    They have the same government though, and far less diversity.
    - a11595 8y ago
      When I lived in France, I had a buddy doing his PhD in French history. He was from Hong Kong. The difference between him and a Chinese mainlander is at species level. The people who grew up in the large mainland cities are educated, writing code for the phones discussed in this thread, and architecting skyscrapers - they speak multiple languages and wear suits. The ex-farmers in those cities poop in the middle of the street, out in the open. others then pump that poop out of the sewers, boil it, and use the floating oil on top to cook with and sell to restaurant. I would agree that Europe is more diverse that China. Eastern Europe + Russia is not more diverse than China. Neither is Western Europe + Iceland. And China is 10 times more diverse than the states. source: Russian born, US raised. Also lived in Spain, France, Japan. Been to Every EU and European country, and ~80 countries total. Wife is Chinese, not from the mainland.

wangii 8y ago

no, the scariest part is this: anywhere in this world there are people are scared of different ideas and believes; there are people believe by the power of their perfect system no other opinion worthy of existence. now you may start to explain any idea other than yours not really ideas.

PavlovsCat 8y ago
> Since no one is capable of forming his own opinion without the benefit of a multitude of opinions held by others, the rule of public opinion endangers even the opinion of those few who may have the strength not to share it. This is one of the reasons for the curiously sterile negativism of all opinions which oppose a popularly acclaimed tyranny. [...] public opinion, by virtue of its unanimity, provokes a unanimous opposition and thus kills true opinions everywhere. -- Hannah Arendt
sonnyblarney 8y ago
Ah yes, the relativism argument. Surprise! Almost nobody believes the West is perfect (or any other system) is perfect. Shoot - I'll bet you could get a lot of people to buy into an authoritarian system that maintained peace. But the issue of Han nationalism which extends to the extermination of Tibetans, to the incarceration of 100's of thousands of Uighers etc., to the total lack of democracy ... combined with the fact that the system is still hugely corrupt ... I mean, it would be one thing if China were at least a well ordered machine, but it's not, there's corruption from top to bottom which completely undermines any legitimacy in whatever 'system' they have. Summary: 1) Nobody really thinks any system is perfect. 2) Most people would prefer the rule of law, basic democracy, and low levels of corruption, and at least basic human rights. Those are almost universal.
- redial 8y ago
  > 1) Nobody really thinks any system is perfect. You should have stopped there. Basic democracy is so ambiguous really anything qualifies, and by all accounts, China has basic democracy. In fact, they have infinitely more democracy pre-revolution France did. And the fact that even in the world of today, more than 2000 years after the Greeks, democracy is not universal prove your second point is not such a sure thing as you wanted it to be.