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Debian's Anti-Harassment Team Is Removing a Package Over Its Name
- yaris 8y agoFirst immediate association with this was some forum bots which cannot understand context and check posts for obscene words using a simple regexp, having huge rate of false alarms as the result.
- akadruid1 8y agoSurely Scunthorpe bots would raise alarms for git and gimp? They are full word matches, and in my culture the words are more offensive than boob.
- et2o 8y agoI think it's more the gratuitous insertion of sex into an area that has nothing inherently to do with sex, not that the word is itself offensive.
- growt 8y agoI guess liboobs is next?
- hwj 8y agoWhat about coq? https://packages.debian.org/stable/math/coq https://packages.debian.org/stable/math/coq
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y agoIt's the first time I've heard about Weboob, and it looks like a genuinely useful package, I'm definitely trying it out. As for the name, I can see the tool is created mainly by French people. Frankly, having some Americans ask them to change the name would have to sound bizarre to them.
- Symbiote 8y agoGiven the logo, (removed) homophobic comments[1] and error message, the blogpost on the topic[2], a developer's idea of a "welcoming and inclusive environment" [3], and the range of icons used in the tool [4], I think it's pretty clear that the developers do understand, and don't wish to change anything. This comment[5] from a Debian developer seems an excellent summary of the issue: "It's fine to show a woman in underwear if you try to sell women's underwear […]. It's not ok to show a woman in underwear if you try to sell a chair (and the scantily clad woman is just decoration / an object to draw attention to the ad) […] "It's IMO fine to talk about and show breasts in a game which teaches the names of body parts to children; or in an app that helps women to detect early warnings signs of breast cancer; or (Ian's example) in software controlling sex toys; etc. Because there they are simply on-topic. "And it's IMO not ok to use the boobs theme for a web scraper or other software unrelated to boobs themselves, where its only function is to make a small group of users giggle while objectifying, offending or boring the rest of the world." [1] https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/merge_requests/228/diffs https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/merge_requests/228/diffs [2] http://laurent.bachelier.name/2013/12/weboob-the-asshole-detector/ http://laurent.bachelier.name/2013/12/weboob-the-asshole-det... [3] https://git.weboob.org/laurentb/devel/commit/e4ed7bf8e384f4a0a0b07ed4c8d7a0a1e9f7d1a1 https://git.weboob.org/laurentb/devel/commit/e4ed7bf8e384f4a... [4] http://weboob.org/modules http://weboob.org/modules [5] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00428.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00428.html
- dvfjsdhgfv 8y agoYes, it's clearly a cultural difference. I'll give you an example. In the nineties I bought a French software magazine with a CD with apps (I don't remember the name, it could be L'Ordinateur). Apart from demos, trials, shareware etc. I found a separate folder on the CD called "Charmes". I look inside - et voila! - I see the directory full of naked women. In a computer magazine! A major one! I can't think it could happen in the USA (or most other European countries for that matter). So I don't see any possibility of mutual understanding here.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
- jaytaylor 8y agoDo any Debian package names refer to anything which sounds violent? If so, all offenders should be eradicated! And how about that "fsck" thing, that seems like a thinly veiled swear word, too. I know I'm cursing if I have to invoke it ;) Removal for an acronym ending in "boob" seems really over the top to me. Though in this apparently hyper-vigilant time in which we live, perhaps I'm not allowed an opinion since I am a male with only breasts and not boobs.
- manicdee 8y agoWatch as the incels and MRAs pick up your hilarious joke as an actual argument.
- Valmar 8y ago"Incel" is an actually offensive term, so you're a massive hypocrite. Besides, how are men's rights activists somehow "bad", as you're insinuating? The reason such groups exist is because they're being actively oppressed by Radical Feminists.
- dang 8y agoPlease don't post flamebait to HN.
- onion2k 8y agoThough in this apparently hyper-vigilant time in which we live, perhaps I'm not allowed an opinion since I am a male with only breasts and not boobs. Of course you're allowed an opinion. Other people are allowed opinions too though, and if you're not going to respect what other people think (even when you disagree) then no one has any reason to listen to you.
- s9w 8y agoWell I'm the usually the one being radically free-speech, etc. And I guess mostly here too. But: This project seems _really_ immature. Not that it should be banned for it in this case or any other. But you can't deny the intention behind it. And more: The photo you see on the projects website? You can find the un-edited original of it on the web. And the middle paper doesn't have the logos spirals on it... Which, again, is fine. But the naming is 100% intentional.
- Toutou 8y agoThe "rule 34" of 2018: If it exists, it offends someone. No exceptions.
- sudhirj 8y agoThe name alone is likely not a problem, and it’s unlikely that other Scunthorpe names will cause problems purely on the name. The authors of the project made the logo misyoginost (the OO) are two globes representing breasts, and there’s reports of other juvenile work in the same vein. That’s enough to cross the line. There was a JS testing framework called Testacular, which was also fine until attracted more male genetalia references in the libraries extracted and the documentation, at which point it wasn’t fine anymore. Called Karma now. Just a name can be can be unintentional, a language fub or acceptably silly and whimsical. But creating and attracting artwork, words, references and trolls makes things toxic. There is a line, and it is the anti harassment team’s job to draw it.
- ZoomZoomZoom 8y agoWhat's misogynistic in a picture representing breasts? Are they pictured in pain, or something like that?
- gros_roberts 8y agoThere is actually no such picture so no one knows, the logo has spirals, or currently, Christmas tree decorations.
- ZoomZoomZoom 8y agoI bet if you make a public poll asking what part of a human body can be represented by two spheres of glass hanging, the woman's breast will not be a winner.
- chomp 8y agoMore than that, there are some pretty bad insults, here's one that was removed: https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/merge_requests/228 https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/merge_requests/228 They then added it back with a different insult: https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/merge_requests/232/diffs#diff-9 https://git.weboob.org/weboob/devel/merge_requests/232/diffs... I mean I can understand the sentiment some might have that overzealous political correctness is taking over. I might be on that side of the fence if this was just purely about the name. But this is on a whole different level. Debian doesn't need to ship this if they don't want to. I personally wouldn't want to make a distro that provides my users software to install that insults them (and not a joking insult, this is just straight up poor taste). It just looks tacky, isn't necessary, and (this is biggest issue) is very insulting to certain groups of people.
- cesarb 8y agoReminds me of the "hot-babe" package from 2004: https://lwn.net/Articles/113644/ https://lwn.net/Articles/113644/
- packetpirate 8y agoUnfortunate acronym, but this is so asinine. Did the people who reported this have nothing better to do?
- berbec 8y agoOh God. Is the ebook converter that can take the proprietary LIT formate done for too? It's call clit. http://www.convertlit.com/index.php http://www.convertlit.com/index.php
- bigbugbag 8y agoWow! so the asshole detector detected assholes in the seat of the decision makers at debian. It's sad when debian is not a welcoming place anymore and makes stupid decisions like this that make it look bad. Great a package that happens to be really useful and innovative is now removed. Thanks to this much needed move women are now massively using debian right away because they do not feel threatened anymore by this package name, specifically among all those non english speaking people like France where this software is from. On the other hand this move may make debian looks bad and unwelcoming.
- onlydeadheroes 8y agoOne day we will be asked why did we allow literal nobodies to enjoy these power trips at the cost of our work and community.
- bigbugbag 8y agoForgot to add source for the "asshole detector reference: http://laurent.bachelier.name/2013/12/weboob-the-asshole-detector/ http://laurent.bachelier.name/2013/12/weboob-the-asshole-det...
- porpoisely 8y agoI'm a long time debian user and supporter and this is ridiculous. They are going insane over weboob an acronym for "Web Outside Of Browsers"? If people don't like it, then tell them not to use it. And what's with the "our values" nonsense that so much of the tech leadership and business leadership have been using to justify censorship and their authoritarian behavior? If they are going to remove weboob, then they should also remove man/pages, mongodb, git, gimp, strip, tail, head, gnome, etc. You can view anything as being offensive if you choose to. So if debian somehow becomes a naughty word in our culture, will debian just shut down or change their name? Also, does debian's "values" apply only to english? What if the names is innocuous in english but highly offensive in other languages? Will they remove it from the package list or demand the name be changed? What is going on here? It's like someone released poison and the few people running things have turned into hypersensitive clowns.
- Volundr 8y agoIt's a bit disingenuous to claim that weboobs is some kind of an accidental acronym. The logo combined with a brief glance at the page is plenty to make it clear it's very intentional. A quick look at http://weboob.org/applications/ http://weboob.org/applications/: handjoob wetboob boobsize Look, I enjoy a good dick and boob joke, but some people (people, not just women) get understandably uncomfortable with people start sniggering about body parts. Hence I don't do it in public. It's called basic manners. None of your other examples set out to be interpreted that way, and most of them are a hell of a stretch. Weboobs very clearly set out to make as many immature jokes as it could.
- belorn 8y agoIf we need more explicit examples, what about the WTFPL? Should a license text exist on the system that has that word in it? There is also a license which use the word Bugger off (Etymology source this down to heretics who were thought to have come from Bulgaria), calls lawyers for jackals, and has the word twit in it which all sounds quite nasty for a single license.
- 8y ago
- damm 8y agoYet the decision was made by men; doesn't seem very inclusive does it? Maybe Debian should remove itself.
- bigbugbag 8y agoMy main concern is that this might be only a beginning as said in phoronix forums: > 12-20-2018, 03:16 AM > >... and to be a bit more serious: This is only the testrun. > You will see them removing packages because of "non- > compliant" political views of developers.
- bigbugbag 8y agoJust found out that the devs are aware of the situation and posted about it last august in one of the most prominent french linux website. they basically say that since 2010 they've been trolled on regular basis about the name of their software that happens to be a coincidence. These trollings gave them the inspiration to push further with visual elements and other part of the naming scheme used for other components. The regular attacks from social justice warrior seeing in weboob a cisgender patriarcal homophobic masculinism are causing incomprehension among the female devs contributing to weboob and among the women gravitating around this project. Mostly it seems these attacks are coming from men who want to impose their view on women about what's right and wrong. He ends the post by saying that he was supposed to give a talk with his girlfriend data scientist about the conjoint use of weboob and machine learning to scrape dating websites at pyconFR titled "find love with weboob <3", though the talk was well recevied, he was asked to provide a different title to the talk due to chances that people misinterpret it and complain based on the code of conduct of PyconFR. https://linuxfr.org/users/moules/journaux/le-comble-du-ridicule https://linuxfr.org/users/moules/journaux/le-comble-du-ridic...
- teddyh 8y agoAs I understand the actual reason, it’s mainly about the package being over-sexualized when the package itself has nothing to do with sexiness: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00428.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00428.html