7 ms·

E-cigarettes around 95% less harmful than tobacco, estimates landmark review

52 points by troydavis 8y ago

bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
Yet we'll still have people saying that that 5% is just too much.
- ZeroGravitas 8y ago
  Maybe it is. Would be good to benchmark it against stuff other than the byword for self inflicted cancer. Is it as bad as coca cola? If so it should probably be discouraged.
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
    I would actually love to know if it's as bad as coca cola.
    - verdverm 8y ago
      Sugar generally?
      - bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
        High-fructose corn syrup specifically.
        brianwawok 8y ago
        HFCS compared to Sugar or nothing? Americans clearly eat way too much Sugar or Sugar like substances. Even if best case HFCS is ruled as healthy as Sugar, it should still be drastically cut back / avoided.
        wahern 8y ago
        Is there any strong evidence that dietary HFCS is consequentially different than sugar? HFCS is 55%/45% fructose/glucose vs 50%/50% for cane sugar. That's a mere 5% difference, plus the fact that the gut doesn't need to cleave the fructose from the glucose using sucrase. But AFAIU the cleaving happens readily and rapidly. It wouldn't be shocking if HFCS was consequentially different, but it seems unlikely. HFCS just seems like a misleading distraction outside arguments about agricultural politics. Worse than a distraction, actually, because relying on flimsy and unnecessary arguments makes it easier for those defending the arguably excessive use of sugar in the food supply to inject FUD into the debate.
- Jonovono 8y ago
  E cigs are physically healthier than normal cigarettes but I still think they are worse for you.
  - code_beers 8y ago
    What on Earth does that even mean?
    - verdverm 8y ago
      It means that there is a psychology component. That people who are addicts, nicotine or whatever, spend significant portions of mental energy focussed on the object of addiction.
      - moftz 8y ago
        Great thing about e-cigs is that you can wean yourself off the nicotine while still keeping the simulation of smoking. You can buy progressively lower nicotine concentrations until you feel comfortable with no nicotine. Once you don't have a physical addiction, giving up the e-cig entirely becomes easier. I used to smoke cigarettes and drink caffeine whenever I was staying up late to study. School got harder so more late nights meant I smoked more up to the point I was smoking during the day just to smoke. I switched to a vape with a high nicotine concentration instead. I found that I used it much more often, I could get a nicotine fix indoors but at least it wasn't a real cig. I started backing down the concentration and the use (mostly due to the public image of looking like a douchebag blowing huge clouds) and now I'm at the point where I only use the lowest concentration when I'm in the car alone. Nicotine addiction is barely on the radar for me anymore. Smoking really doesn't have that "volume knob" that vaping does. You can make that responsible choice of buying lower concentrations that isn't really possible when you buy a pack of cigs.
      - moreoutput 8y ago
        Indeed, those people could be producing things for me.
    - Jonovono 8y ago
- jdhn 8y ago
  There will always be people who want to eliminate all risk, even if it's impossible to do so.
verdverm 8y ago
From 2015, also curious who "funded" the study?
- DanBC 8y ago
  I think it's funded by governemnt. The report is published by, and commissioned by, Public Health England. PHE is an executive branch of the Department for Health and Social Care. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/public-health-england https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/public-health-en...
- troydavis 8y ago
  Here's a 2018 URL affirming the same estimate: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-independent-expert-e-cigarettes-evidence-review https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-independent... That page has tons more detail. The first footnote is a report commissioned by Public Health England, the British equivalent of the US FDA. Here's a joint statement by 13 of the most influential - and most neutral - UK public health organizations, including the Royal College of Physicians (US equivalent: American Medical Association) and the British Lung Foundation (US equiv: American Lung Association): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/534708/E-cigarettes_joint_consensus_statement_2016.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... These aren't obviously biased studies or people and they aren't easy to dismiss. Whether the health difference is 20x ("at least 95% healthier"), 10x, or 50x, there's now a nicotine delivery method - vaping - that, while far from healthy, almost everyone agrees is far healthier than traditional smoking. The difference may be large enough to justify removing paper cigarettes from the retail market entirely.
LinuxBender 8y ago
My son grew up with my ex. The entire household smoked. When he moved in with me, he switched to vaping. I am very thankful for that. While vaping has some risks (shady vape juice vendors, low quality coils that give off toxins), I gladly accept that over something that we all know causes cancer for the consumer and those around them. Any time I see discussions or articles about vaping or e-cig being dangerous, I automatically assume it is funded by a part of the tobacco industry that has not invested in vaping. There is no logical reason otherwise. The vape juice quality can and should be addressed by the FDA and consumer reviews. By all means, educate people on risks, but every attempt to keep people on cigarettes needs to be nullified.
- verdverm 8y ago
  We do need to get rid of flavored Vapes, kids don't even realize they are using nicotine and becoming lifelong addicts.
  - wahern 8y ago
    Adults use flavored vapes, too. In fact, almost all the adults I know who vape use flavored vapes; adults ranging in age in from 30-70. And all those adults switched from cigarettes to vaping. The war on cigarettes has gone on so long that we've lost perspective. Part of the strategy of that war was to make nicotine out to be some horrendous and horrendously addictive poison, which was an easier sell for some people than explaining the varied and complicated effects from smoking combustible tobacco. Kids shouldn't be using nicotine because of their developing brains. Kids experimenting with vaping out of ignorance should be educated. But let's not lose sight of the fact that cigarette smoking is unfathomably more harmful for society. From an epidemiological perspective, if this was a zero-sum game it would make perfect sense to trade vaping for cigarettes, even if that meant teens were vaping at the same rate as they were smoking cigarettes at the peak. If people want to obsess over flavored poisons, we should start by banning wine coolers (if not all wine!), alcoholic cider, and the myriad brands of flavored hard liquor.
  - rudedogg 8y ago
    I think if they do this a lot of people will go back to smoking. Ex-smokers still want to smoke, vaping is just barely decent enough to switch if you want to.
WMCRUN 8y ago
The study makes broad claims about physical health but was conducted by psychologists. Also, the heavy metals in vape liquid and the spiking addiction rates in teenagers and children beg to differ with their conclusions.
- folkrav 8y ago
  > The study makes broad claims about physical health but was conducted by psychologists. Where did you see anything about them being psychologists? Closest I could find was a handful of authors being associated with the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology & Neuroscience - neuroscientists and psychiatrists are very far from being psychologists... > Also, the heavy metals in vape liquid Very curious about your sources about the "heavy metals" in e-juice. > the spiking addiction rates in teenagers and children beg to differ with their conclusions. Addiction is caused nicotine, which hasn't been found to be particularly harmful by itself. Addiction rates speak nothing about harmfulness. You're making a whole lot of unexplained claims here.
jmcgough 8y ago
The entire public health crusade against e-cigs reminds me of the anti-pot crusade in the 80s and 90s. Lots of decisions made by the government based on emotion instead of based on evidence. In the 19-29 year old demographic, e-cig vaping is cannibalizing cigarette smoking. That's a net public health gain, since e-cigs have dramatically fewer carcinogens.
verdverm 8y ago
Challenge to vape users, go 3 days without and evaluate the effects on your mood. Nicotine withdrawal is the part about giving up smoking that suuuucks! Do you want to be dependent upon this particular chemical? Do you want to permanently change your brain? (I highly recommend against)
spaceprison 8y ago
It's good to see studies like this. To my knowledge addiction to nicotine poses no known health risk. Its interesting that the anti-smoking movement that was motivated by the public health risk associated with smoking has gradually turned into a puritanical drive to eliminate addiction. It seems to me that identifying less harmful alternatives to smoking (ecigs) is a more realistic path to smoking cessation than saying it's all bad.
marsrover 8y ago
I don’t smoke cigarettes but I’ve been exclusively vaping weed since 2012. Hope I’m getting some similar benefits.

52 points by troydavis 8y ago

bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago

Yet we'll still have people saying that that 5% is just too much.

ZeroGravitas 8y ago
Maybe it is. Would be good to benchmark it against stuff other than the byword for self inflicted cancer. Is it as bad as coca cola? If so it should probably be discouraged.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
  I would actually love to know if it's as bad as coca cola.
  - verdverm 8y ago
    Sugar generally?
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 8y ago
      High-fructose corn syrup specifically.
      - brianwawok 8y ago
        HFCS compared to Sugar or nothing? Americans clearly eat way too much Sugar or Sugar like substances. Even if best case HFCS is ruled as healthy as Sugar, it should still be drastically cut back / avoided.
        wahern 8y ago
        Is there any strong evidence that dietary HFCS is consequentially different than sugar? HFCS is 55%/45% fructose/glucose vs 50%/50% for cane sugar. That's a mere 5% difference, plus the fact that the gut doesn't need to cleave the fructose from the glucose using sucrase. But AFAIU the cleaving happens readily and rapidly. It wouldn't be shocking if HFCS was consequentially different, but it seems unlikely. HFCS just seems like a misleading distraction outside arguments about agricultural politics. Worse than a distraction, actually, because relying on flimsy and unnecessary arguments makes it easier for those defending the arguably excessive use of sugar in the food supply to inject FUD into the debate.
Jonovono 8y ago
E cigs are physically healthier than normal cigarettes but I still think they are worse for you.
- code_beers 8y ago
  What on Earth does that even mean?
  - verdverm 8y ago
    It means that there is a psychology component. That people who are addicts, nicotine or whatever, spend significant portions of mental energy focussed on the object of addiction.
    - moftz 8y ago
      Great thing about e-cigs is that you can wean yourself off the nicotine while still keeping the simulation of smoking. You can buy progressively lower nicotine concentrations until you feel comfortable with no nicotine. Once you don't have a physical addiction, giving up the e-cig entirely becomes easier. I used to smoke cigarettes and drink caffeine whenever I was staying up late to study. School got harder so more late nights meant I smoked more up to the point I was smoking during the day just to smoke. I switched to a vape with a high nicotine concentration instead. I found that I used it much more often, I could get a nicotine fix indoors but at least it wasn't a real cig. I started backing down the concentration and the use (mostly due to the public image of looking like a douchebag blowing huge clouds) and now I'm at the point where I only use the lowest concentration when I'm in the car alone. Nicotine addiction is barely on the radar for me anymore. Smoking really doesn't have that "volume knob" that vaping does. You can make that responsible choice of buying lower concentrations that isn't really possible when you buy a pack of cigs.
    - moreoutput 8y ago
      Indeed, those people could be producing things for me.
  - Jonovono 8y ago
jdhn 8y ago
There will always be people who want to eliminate all risk, even if it's impossible to do so.

verdverm 8y ago

From 2015, also curious who "funded" the study?

DanBC 8y ago
I think it's funded by governemnt. The report is published by, and commissioned by, Public Health England. PHE is an executive branch of the Department for Health and Social Care. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/public-health-england https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/public-health-en...
troydavis 8y ago
Here's a 2018 URL affirming the same estimate: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-independent-expert-e-cigarettes-evidence-review https://www.gov.uk/government/news/phe-publishes-independent... That page has tons more detail. The first footnote is a report commissioned by Public Health England, the British equivalent of the US FDA. Here's a joint statement by 13 of the most influential - and most neutral - UK public health organizations, including the Royal College of Physicians (US equivalent: American Medical Association) and the British Lung Foundation (US equiv: American Lung Association): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/534708/E-cigarettes_joint_consensus_statement_2016.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... These aren't obviously biased studies or people and they aren't easy to dismiss. Whether the health difference is 20x ("at least 95% healthier"), 10x, or 50x, there's now a nicotine delivery method - vaping - that, while far from healthy, almost everyone agrees is far healthier than traditional smoking. The difference may be large enough to justify removing paper cigarettes from the retail market entirely.

LinuxBender 8y ago

My son grew up with my ex. The entire household smoked. When he moved in with me, he switched to vaping. I am very thankful for that. While vaping has some risks (shady vape juice vendors, low quality coils that give off toxins), I gladly accept that over something that we all know causes cancer for the consumer and those around them. Any time I see discussions or articles about vaping or e-cig being dangerous, I automatically assume it is funded by a part of the tobacco industry that has not invested in vaping. There is no logical reason otherwise. The vape juice quality can and should be addressed by the FDA and consumer reviews. By all means, educate people on risks, but every attempt to keep people on cigarettes needs to be nullified.

verdverm 8y ago
We do need to get rid of flavored Vapes, kids don't even realize they are using nicotine and becoming lifelong addicts.
- wahern 8y ago
  Adults use flavored vapes, too. In fact, almost all the adults I know who vape use flavored vapes; adults ranging in age in from 30-70. And all those adults switched from cigarettes to vaping. The war on cigarettes has gone on so long that we've lost perspective. Part of the strategy of that war was to make nicotine out to be some horrendous and horrendously addictive poison, which was an easier sell for some people than explaining the varied and complicated effects from smoking combustible tobacco. Kids shouldn't be using nicotine because of their developing brains. Kids experimenting with vaping out of ignorance should be educated. But let's not lose sight of the fact that cigarette smoking is unfathomably more harmful for society. From an epidemiological perspective, if this was a zero-sum game it would make perfect sense to trade vaping for cigarettes, even if that meant teens were vaping at the same rate as they were smoking cigarettes at the peak. If people want to obsess over flavored poisons, we should start by banning wine coolers (if not all wine!), alcoholic cider, and the myriad brands of flavored hard liquor.
- rudedogg 8y ago
  I think if they do this a lot of people will go back to smoking. Ex-smokers still want to smoke, vaping is just barely decent enough to switch if you want to.

WMCRUN 8y ago

The study makes broad claims about physical health but was conducted by psychologists. Also, the heavy metals in vape liquid and the spiking addiction rates in teenagers and children beg to differ with their conclusions.

folkrav 8y ago
> The study makes broad claims about physical health but was conducted by psychologists. Where did you see anything about them being psychologists? Closest I could find was a handful of authors being associated with the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology & Neuroscience - neuroscientists and psychiatrists are very far from being psychologists... > Also, the heavy metals in vape liquid Very curious about your sources about the "heavy metals" in e-juice. > the spiking addiction rates in teenagers and children beg to differ with their conclusions. Addiction is caused nicotine, which hasn't been found to be particularly harmful by itself. Addiction rates speak nothing about harmfulness. You're making a whole lot of unexplained claims here.

jmcgough 8y ago

The entire public health crusade against e-cigs reminds me of the anti-pot crusade in the 80s and 90s. Lots of decisions made by the government based on emotion instead of based on evidence. In the 19-29 year old demographic, e-cig vaping is cannibalizing cigarette smoking. That's a net public health gain, since e-cigs have dramatically fewer carcinogens.

verdverm 8y ago

Challenge to vape users, go 3 days without and evaluate the effects on your mood. Nicotine withdrawal is the part about giving up smoking that suuuucks! Do you want to be dependent upon this particular chemical? Do you want to permanently change your brain? (I highly recommend against)

spaceprison 8y ago

It's good to see studies like this. To my knowledge addiction to nicotine poses no known health risk. Its interesting that the anti-smoking movement that was motivated by the public health risk associated with smoking has gradually turned into a puritanical drive to eliminate addiction. It seems to me that identifying less harmful alternatives to smoking (ecigs) is a more realistic path to smoking cessation than saying it's all bad.

marsrover 8y ago

I don’t smoke cigarettes but I’ve been exclusively vaping weed since 2012. Hope I’m getting some similar benefits.