10 ms·

Addicted to vaped nicotine, teenagers have no clear path to quitting

57 points by ductionist 8y ago

NoPicklez 8y ago
I remember when Vaping gained popularity, and I advocated it as a way for addicted smokers to slowly reduce their nicotine intake, whilst still having the physical sensation. Now the issue is that you can constantly increase the strength of the nicotine concentration in your own vape.
- wybiral 8y ago
  You can also decrease the concentration. I smoked for years and eventually switched to vaping for a few months while decreasing the quantity I was using. The problem with cigarettes is that you have to buy 20 of them at a time and they're all full-length which makes reducing your intake harder as an addict. It seems like a dangerous gateway for non-smokers to get hooked but I do still think it can help smokers taper off. I haven't smoked (or vaped) in two years after tapering down my intake and quitting.
  - NoPicklez 8y ago
    Sorry, that's what I meant by advocating it as a way for addicted smokers to reduce their nicotine intake. Through decreasing the quantity of Nicotine added into the vape mixture. I agree, think Vaping for existing smokers is a great idea. Still gives them the psychological feeling of holding and breathing in vapor, but doesn't have the harsh chemicals to go along with it, aside from the Nicotine for which you control the dosage.
danieltillett 8y ago
As a parent with young teenagers this really worries me. Vaping looks to be a lot more effective way of delivering high doses of nicotine than cigarettes. Do we want a generation of kids addicted to vaping because we thought it harmless?
- sigsergv 8y ago
  > Vaping looks to be a lot more effective way of delivering high doses of nicotine than cigarettes That's not true, from my personal experience cigarettes are MUCH more powerful. Also I don't understand why everyone so obsessed about nicotine as a main active agent. It looks relatively harmless when comparing with smoke, carbon monoxide, tar in cigarettes and strange substances in e-cigarette vapor (not including nicotine).
  - lemoncucumber 8y ago
    Isn't it the addictive part? It would be a lot easier to avoid all the other harmful stuff in the vapor if it wasn't addictive.
    - sigsergv 8y ago
      Social aspect of smoking could be additctive a lot. Many vaping liquids don't contain nicotine.
  - hn-reporter1911 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances known. Cigarettes may indeed be more powerful, but people are obsessed with nicotine because it’s addictive qualities are so well known.
    - sigsergv 8y ago
      Dependence on nicotine is mostly psychological/social. Nicotine patches could prevent physical one but people still need to perform smoking “ritual” again and again. What I want to say: we should not fight nicotine, we should fight smoking/vaping.
    - sigsergv 8y ago
      And also I know a lot of people who vape nicotine-free dirt and we don't know what exactly those liquids contain.
vbuwivbiu 8y ago
simple - use cigarettes as an alternative while quitting
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
robinduckett 8y ago
Except "reduce the intake of nicotine, with some self discipline". In the UK, a lot of vape liquid is sold with no nicotine. You state your preferred level of nicotine, and someone behind the desk tells you how much nicotine to purchase to get that level of nicotine in the vape. You can vape as is, with no nicotine, but what's the point unless you're quitting?
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  yes or simply "stop smoking" This article is an example of a bit of our society's insanity. Quitting nicotine is difficult. But people who want to quit work at it and achieve their goals. Throw the shit away, talk to your family for support, don't buy more. It's insane to imply that we need some sort of product or medical supervision to make a decision and work at something like quitting nicotine.
  - treve 8y ago
    As it turns out many people don't have the willpower to kick the habit and die from smoking-related illnesses. How does does your suggestion to just quit help? Are you denying the existence of addiction to nicotine? If it were as simple as you describe, don't you think there wouldn't be a problem?
    - awakeasleep 8y ago
      There are a range of choices and lifestyles available to everyone. Habits and addictions, and choices play a role in that. Many people die from issues related to their habits and addictions. But I do not think it makes sense demand a product or medical intervention as a solution to all of them. Many harmful habits or addictions are best tackled with planning, decision making, and human effort. I think a good litmus test for whether something can reasonably require medical intervention is the danger to your health from quitting. It makes sense to intervene for someone going through alcohol withdrawal, because they can be injured from it. It does not make sense for e-cigs, because if someone actually desires to stop, there isn't anything threatening them except their habit. What would the outcome be, if there was a product to reduce the effort of quitting nicotine? It would simply improve nicotine itself, by removing the biggest reason to avoid it. We'd end up with people habitually taking two drugs, nicotine and the 'quitting drug'.
adrianN 8y ago
How many of the teenagers that vape today would have used cigarettes fifteen years ago? If you asked my class whether they know someone who regularly smokes because "they have to" everybody would have raised their hands. I think about a third smoked at least occasionally, at parties and such. I'm not convinced that vaping is a bigger problem or that it's harder to quit vaping than smoking. How is reducing the frequency of vaping, or choosing liquids with lower nicotine content, not possible with vaping, but reducing the number of cigarettes you smoke per day is?
- Scaevolus 8y ago
  It looks like total high school nicotine use is still down, even though there had been a shift from cigarettes to vaping: http://www.casaa.org/news/epidemic-a-perspective-of-youth-vaping-tobacco-use-trends/ http://www.casaa.org/news/epidemic-a-perspective-of-youth-va...
- bredren 8y ago
  The article specifically calls out the problem of unit measurement when vaping due to varying amounts of nicotine. The devices themselves have varying liquid capacity and vaporizing volume settings--you can't easily track how many pulls until the device is empty. Battery limitations also confuse the amount "left" in the device. Cigarette units are simpler, in part because there aren't that many brands, and even if you roll your own, you probably have a pretty good idea of how much tobacco you're putting in the cigarettes. But especially with boxes of cigarettes, you can easily count them down and keep track knowing each starts with 20. I'd also suggest that cigarette use is far more difficult to hide than vaporizer use. Cigarettes smell terrible compared to most vape clouds. The smell and risk of iscovery could be important elements of cigarettes that might make them easier for teenagers to quit. Finally, vaping comes in just about every flavor imaginable. Much more diverse in taste offering than cigarettes with the same high. It is really a much more refined narcotic delivery than cigarettes and so it aught to be harder for anyone to quit.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    I don't vape, but I imagine that the user has a relatively good idea how much they inhale and how much liquid they use per day (or week). It's not like they switch devices, settings, and liquids all the time.
mrkurt 8y ago
"Addicted to caffeine, teenagers have no clear path to quitting". "Addicted to fortnight, kids have no clear path to quitting". "Addicted to social media, millennials have no clear path to mental health". We've spent 100 years creating companies that grow because addiction works. It's gonna take a concerted, societal effort to disconnect addiction and incentives.
- dgut 8y ago
  Addiction is the result of underlying mental health issues though, not a direct cause of companies selling addictive products... Teens have it rough, at least they imagine. Edit: Not sure why the downvotes. There is a trend of putting the blame for N things on external factors, e.g "he is in debt because of all those credit card advertisements". For Americans, it might seem like corporations are the cause of many such ills, but there are societies where e.g aggressive advertisements which are common in the US are non-existent, and people still get in debt, eat badly or drink too many sugary drinks.
  - deevolution 8y ago
    Nicotine is physically addictive regardless of if there's an underlying mental health issue or not.
    - dgut 8y ago
      Sure, but any mentally healthy person can quit without too much trouble if they decide to. The problem is when the person isn't mentally healthy, in such case nicotine might even alleviate the suffering so quitting becomes really hard.
      - adrianN 8y ago
        Then you believe that the majority of all smokers are not mentally healthy?
        8y ago
porlune 8y ago
Bupropion (wellbutrin) was originally for depression, but can help people quit smoking. Note: the effects appear permanent, and you don't have to continue taking the medication after the first round. Edit: I'm curious why this was downvoted, I'm simply offering information that I know has helped others in this very situation.
- scurvy 8y ago
  I was going to suggest this, too. It helped me quit smoking. Unsure about the effects on teenagers though. No idea about the down votes; yours is a very reasonable suggestion.
xkfm 8y ago
It's fairly easy to taper your nicotine usage (as well as make your own juice), but I wouldn't expect teenagers to care that much, or use less nicotine even if they were making their own. I had a few incidents with caffeine/energy drinks, but they were arguably a less harmful and definitely cheaper habit.
- Implicated 8y ago
  What's an 'incident' with caffeine/energy drinks?
  - TylerE 8y ago
    It's actually not that hard to OD on caffeine. Doing a couple of strong espressos in a row would do it for many people. Symptoms similar to a panic attack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Overdose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Overdose Then you have stuff like this... https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml
    - deadlydose 8y ago
      > Then you have stuff like this... https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml Scroll to the bottom of the page or click 'Buy Now.'
  - 0xcde4c3db 8y ago
    Can't speak for parent specifically, but high doses of caffeine can cause: - Cardiovascular events - Seizures - Panic attacks - Psychotic episodes These are all exceptional, but it's not that difficult to get to the associated dose range, particularly if you have some preexisting vulnerability that lowers the threshold for one or more of them. Since sensitivities vary in general it's hard to nail down any specific number, but the order of magnitude is around a pot of coffee or a six-pack of one of the more potent energy drinks.
mattsfrey 8y ago
Quitting is hard but it's doable. I smoked off and on for 10 years, the last 3 or so was just bumming cigs when out drunk but finally just gave it up entirely when I was about to turn 30, have to reach a point where you decide you're done.
Nasrudith 8y ago
Serious question what did they do to help teenagers quit cigarettes in the many decades past? Teenagers certainly were smoking well before the electronic cigarette was invented and utterly flopped in the 1960s. I don't see how a delivery mechanism is any different except perhaps poorly designed regulation and not bringing down the wrath of god upon them immediately for blatantly violating tobacco advertising laws - I remember far too many radio commercials that weren't even trying to hide it - as 'a smoking cessation commercial that spends 75% of the time talking about the satisfaction and telling them they can use it anywhere'.
- 013a 8y ago
  Delivery mechanism really does matter. Vaping is much more accessible than cigarettes; you can do it indoors with no risk of smelling like anything. You can do it in bathrooms. Also, if Nicotine is the only reason people are addicted to cigarettes, why doesn't something like nicorette see just as much abuse? Delivery mechanism. Cigarette/Vape users are mentally addicted just as much to the routine and throat hit as they are to the chemical. I'd actually argue more-so.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    People have been smoking in bathrooms forever. If large portions of the teenage population were still smoking the schools would explicitly or implicitly give up on forbidding it. Trying to ban a behaviour a third of the population engage in is a losing battle. Look at France https://thinkprogress.org/french-high-school-students-encouraged-to-smoke-indoors- https://thinkprogress.org/french-high-school-students-encour... > In one of the strangest debates that’s resulted from the spate of shootings and bombings across Paris last November, French school administrators are weighing the dangers of teen smoking against the threat of potential terrorist attacks.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Nothing really. Those vapers would more than likely just be smokers of vaping wasn’t around.
013a 8y ago
> The survey also found that many students believe they are vaping “just flavoring.” In fact, just about all brands include nicotine, and Juul has particularly high levels of it. Wow. What? Minor point, but nearly every flavor of eliquid I've ever seen comes in a 0mg variant. Granted, none of the gas station pod systems have that. More importantly: there is no way in hell you are vaping a Juul and just think its flavored vapor. I have not once seen someone take a hit on a Juul for the first time and not have a small coughing fit. Unless you inherited an impossibly massive genetic nicotine tolerance, the first few times you hit a Juul you're basically going to fly. I've seen one person puke. Having a small brown-out for a second would not be unheard of. Its very strong. Its made for adult smokers who have been smoking for years and want to quit. Its not even that tasty compared to the other less strong brands; nicotine is straight up disgusting, and only gets more disgusting as the concentration grows. I don't believe for a second that kids were genuinely self-reporting that they had no idea, unless they were actually vaping something more like 3mg/ml juice from a normal vape. That, I could see. But a 50mg/ml Juul, absolutely not. That's like saying you drank a shot of vodka and had no idea it wasn't water.
- Raidion 8y ago
  I agree with you, but as a note, you'll cough just as hard if you hit a 0mg nicotine vape for the first time. It's not the nicotine that makes you cough.
- warmblanket 8y ago
  Switched from cigarettes to JUUL after 10 years of smoking. I agree on the coughing, but from a straight-up nicotine delivery standpoint, cigarettes seem more pronounced for me.
beizhia 8y ago
These kind of articles always seem odd to me. I've used an e-cig to stop smoking. Worked myself down from 21mg juice to 3mg, step by step. Now I really only use it when I'm out drinking, to prevent myself from wanting a cigarette (old habits do die hard, after all) The e-cig helped, but the real motivator is that I wanted to run and play soccer more effectively. Vaping was just a tool that kept me away from cigarettes.
- treve 8y ago
  What's odd about it? That people get hooked to nicotine through another delivery mechanism?
- ce4 8y ago
  And one very nice side effect of vapes that I noticed to be crucial for weaning off more easily: Vaped nicotine feels way less addicting. I think its got something to do with other "active agents" and additives missing compared to cigarettes. Edit: For example, studies have shown cigarette smoke to inhibit MAO in the brain due to some agent besides nicotine, which vaping very probably doesnt. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC19495/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC19495/
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    This, but for the same reason I found vaping not very useful in stopping my cigarette habit (I missed more than just the nicotine). I’ve heard some of the salts in newer vapes have solved that problem, but who knows what those do.
    - ce4 8y ago
      I'm off of both now and even can have a single cigarette every now and then without having a relapse. Glad to have never tried those salts.
warmblanket 8y ago
I smoked for ten years and recently switched to vaping. I don't believe it is necessarily healthier or less addictive, but I do think it might be easier on the lungs and vocal cords (I sing), even though not vaping or smoking at all is clearly the best option. So, I have tried patches before, and I got relentlessly addicted to them. I wore them for something like two years. I have ADHD and take stimulant medication for it, and stimulants are pretty famous for causing tobacco users to smoke a lot more. After I got used to the e-cigarettes/vaping, I don't want to go back. I decline offers from friends for real cigarettes when out drinking at bars/etc., and I have had a pack of cigarettes in my house for about 6 weeks now without smoking a single one. The taste and smell just isn't good anymore now that I'm off the "analogs". It's hard to know how much nicotine I'm ingesting, though. Smoking real cigarettes now gives me a strong nicotine buzz that I don't get from vaping, like that infamous light-headed feeling beginner smokers get. I suspect this is due to vaping delivery being less efficient and more gradually throughout the day, but you would think it would be easier to compare, say, a JUUL to a standard cigarette. The other problem I've had with my JUUL is leaking. The last few pods I have vaped, have all leaked considerable amounts of liquid - sometimes on my lips, sometimes on the sides of the pod and into the chamber. I'm not sure if this is an issue with my device or QC. I clean the device regularly with a Q-Tip. Obviously, leaked liquid is not ingested or vaped, so that's lost nicotine and can't be counted. The same applies to any liquid left in a JUUL pod when it is thrown away. I've started throwing away pods before they are completely empty, because its not working as well. Air bubbles are also a problem and lead to poor performance. Just my experience, I'm sure I'll get harassed for this since I'm discussing vape usage, but addictions are addictions, and not everyone wants to quit.
- tigershark 8y ago
  If it goes into your lips is not wasted nicotine, on the contrary you are overdosing on it. Nicotine is absorbed by the skin as far as I remember.
  - ac29 8y ago
    >Nicotine is absorbed by the skin as far as I remember. Yep, of course it is, otherwise nicotine patches wouldn't work. It's also absorbed through mucous membranes in the mouth (see dip, chew, snus, etc).
jdnier 8y ago
I remember an interesting summary posted on HN back in 2013 about nicotine and tobacco. This was before vaping became popular, but the case he made was that nicotine is actually not very addictive on it own, but seems to reinforce addiction in the presence of other compounds found in tobacco (e.g., MAOIs). Lots of primary sources given. So what else is in vaping liquid? "Nicotine as a useful stimulant" (gwern.net) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772
- boomboomsubban 8y ago
  Most of what I've seen calls nicotine one of the most addictive drugs, but even if it's not that addictive it could still be causing these problems. Addictiveness describes how likely you are to develop a dependency after using some amount of times, and presumably these people are vaping many times before addicted.
- nicotine_temp 8y ago
  Positive comments about nicotine in the LessWrong community were a major reason why I started vaping. I found the addiction to be less serious than commonly claimed, but I also found the beneficial effects to be small. I couldn't say with confidence that it's better than caffeine, and caffeine is more socially acceptable. I don't suppose I'd be shadowbanned for telling people my experience of caffeine.
nicotine_temp 8y ago
In my own experience, nicotine was not very addictive. As a non-smoker, I started vaping 36mg/ml nicotine in unflavored propylene glycol. I used a high concentration to minimize exposure to any unknown non-nicotine risks. I vaped heavily for about 2 years before getting bored of it. I tapered the dose to zero over two weeks and experienced only mild withdrawal symptoms. It's been about four years since I quit and I've never felt the effects were sufficiently interesting or enjoyable to start again.
Simulacra 8y ago
Isn't this by design?
Raidion 8y ago
As someone who has never smoked, but juuls occasionally, I would like to see some studies on the health effects on nicotine alone. Much of the anti smoking literature focuses on the health effects of inhaling burning plant matter along with nicotine. How different is a straight nicotine addiction from that of a coffee addiction? A heavy coffee drinker is chemically dependent on the caffeine, but there isn't any cultural or even health pressure to quit coffee (unless some heart/BP issues). You even see articles that say that coffee has health benefits. I go through great lengths to insure that I don't become dependent on either, though I enjoy both. Caffeine really does reduce fatigue, and nicotine 'dials you in' when you're focusing. Wish I knew what the chemicals themselves were doing to me without the complications from the delivery systems.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- elektor 8y ago
  Here is a new study that looked at urine samples from only smokers, only e-cig users, dual smokers, and never smokers: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2718096?widget=personalizedcontent&previousarticle=0 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... If you look at Figure 1, the e-cig users and never smokers are pretty similar.
- atomi 8y ago
  Nicotine does a good job of raising your blood pressure.
TagAsDelusion 8y ago
regulatory pretext

57 points by ductionist 8y ago

I remember when Vaping gained popularity, and I advocated it as a way for addicted smokers to slowly reduce their nicotine intake, whilst still having the physical sensation. Now the issue is that you can constantly increase the strength of the nicotine concentration in your own vape.

wybiral 8y ago
You can also decrease the concentration. I smoked for years and eventually switched to vaping for a few months while decreasing the quantity I was using. The problem with cigarettes is that you have to buy 20 of them at a time and they're all full-length which makes reducing your intake harder as an addict. It seems like a dangerous gateway for non-smokers to get hooked but I do still think it can help smokers taper off. I haven't smoked (or vaped) in two years after tapering down my intake and quitting.
- NoPicklez 8y ago
  Sorry, that's what I meant by advocating it as a way for addicted smokers to reduce their nicotine intake. Through decreasing the quantity of Nicotine added into the vape mixture. I agree, think Vaping for existing smokers is a great idea. Still gives them the psychological feeling of holding and breathing in vapor, but doesn't have the harsh chemicals to go along with it, aside from the Nicotine for which you control the dosage.

danieltillett 8y ago

As a parent with young teenagers this really worries me. Vaping looks to be a lot more effective way of delivering high doses of nicotine than cigarettes. Do we want a generation of kids addicted to vaping because we thought it harmless?

sigsergv 8y ago
> Vaping looks to be a lot more effective way of delivering high doses of nicotine than cigarettes That's not true, from my personal experience cigarettes are MUCH more powerful. Also I don't understand why everyone so obsessed about nicotine as a main active agent. It looks relatively harmless when comparing with smoke, carbon monoxide, tar in cigarettes and strange substances in e-cigarette vapor (not including nicotine).
- lemoncucumber 8y ago
  Isn't it the addictive part? It would be a lot easier to avoid all the other harmful stuff in the vapor if it wasn't addictive.
  - sigsergv 8y ago
    Social aspect of smoking could be additctive a lot. Many vaping liquids don't contain nicotine.
- hn-reporter1911 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances known. Cigarettes may indeed be more powerful, but people are obsessed with nicotine because it’s addictive qualities are so well known.
  - sigsergv 8y ago
    Dependence on nicotine is mostly psychological/social. Nicotine patches could prevent physical one but people still need to perform smoking “ritual” again and again. What I want to say: we should not fight nicotine, we should fight smoking/vaping.
  - sigsergv 8y ago
    And also I know a lot of people who vape nicotine-free dirt and we don't know what exactly those liquids contain.

vbuwivbiu 8y ago

simple - use cigarettes as an alternative while quitting

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

robinduckett 8y ago

Except "reduce the intake of nicotine, with some self discipline". In the UK, a lot of vape liquid is sold with no nicotine. You state your preferred level of nicotine, and someone behind the desk tells you how much nicotine to purchase to get that level of nicotine in the vape. You can vape as is, with no nicotine, but what's the point unless you're quitting?

awakeasleep 8y ago
yes or simply "stop smoking" This article is an example of a bit of our society's insanity. Quitting nicotine is difficult. But people who want to quit work at it and achieve their goals. Throw the shit away, talk to your family for support, don't buy more. It's insane to imply that we need some sort of product or medical supervision to make a decision and work at something like quitting nicotine.
- treve 8y ago
  As it turns out many people don't have the willpower to kick the habit and die from smoking-related illnesses. How does does your suggestion to just quit help? Are you denying the existence of addiction to nicotine? If it were as simple as you describe, don't you think there wouldn't be a problem?
  - awakeasleep 8y ago
    There are a range of choices and lifestyles available to everyone. Habits and addictions, and choices play a role in that. Many people die from issues related to their habits and addictions. But I do not think it makes sense demand a product or medical intervention as a solution to all of them. Many harmful habits or addictions are best tackled with planning, decision making, and human effort. I think a good litmus test for whether something can reasonably require medical intervention is the danger to your health from quitting. It makes sense to intervene for someone going through alcohol withdrawal, because they can be injured from it. It does not make sense for e-cigs, because if someone actually desires to stop, there isn't anything threatening them except their habit. What would the outcome be, if there was a product to reduce the effort of quitting nicotine? It would simply improve nicotine itself, by removing the biggest reason to avoid it. We'd end up with people habitually taking two drugs, nicotine and the 'quitting drug'.

adrianN 8y ago

How many of the teenagers that vape today would have used cigarettes fifteen years ago? If you asked my class whether they know someone who regularly smokes because "they have to" everybody would have raised their hands. I think about a third smoked at least occasionally, at parties and such. I'm not convinced that vaping is a bigger problem or that it's harder to quit vaping than smoking. How is reducing the frequency of vaping, or choosing liquids with lower nicotine content, not possible with vaping, but reducing the number of cigarettes you smoke per day is?

Scaevolus 8y ago
It looks like total high school nicotine use is still down, even though there had been a shift from cigarettes to vaping: http://www.casaa.org/news/epidemic-a-perspective-of-youth-vaping-tobacco-use-trends/ http://www.casaa.org/news/epidemic-a-perspective-of-youth-va...
bredren 8y ago
The article specifically calls out the problem of unit measurement when vaping due to varying amounts of nicotine. The devices themselves have varying liquid capacity and vaporizing volume settings--you can't easily track how many pulls until the device is empty. Battery limitations also confuse the amount "left" in the device. Cigarette units are simpler, in part because there aren't that many brands, and even if you roll your own, you probably have a pretty good idea of how much tobacco you're putting in the cigarettes. But especially with boxes of cigarettes, you can easily count them down and keep track knowing each starts with 20. I'd also suggest that cigarette use is far more difficult to hide than vaporizer use. Cigarettes smell terrible compared to most vape clouds. The smell and risk of iscovery could be important elements of cigarettes that might make them easier for teenagers to quit. Finally, vaping comes in just about every flavor imaginable. Much more diverse in taste offering than cigarettes with the same high. It is really a much more refined narcotic delivery than cigarettes and so it aught to be harder for anyone to quit.
- adrianN 8y ago
  I don't vape, but I imagine that the user has a relatively good idea how much they inhale and how much liquid they use per day (or week). It's not like they switch devices, settings, and liquids all the time.

mrkurt 8y ago

"Addicted to caffeine, teenagers have no clear path to quitting". "Addicted to fortnight, kids have no clear path to quitting". "Addicted to social media, millennials have no clear path to mental health". We've spent 100 years creating companies that grow because addiction works. It's gonna take a concerted, societal effort to disconnect addiction and incentives.

dgut 8y ago
Addiction is the result of underlying mental health issues though, not a direct cause of companies selling addictive products... Teens have it rough, at least they imagine. Edit: Not sure why the downvotes. There is a trend of putting the blame for N things on external factors, e.g "he is in debt because of all those credit card advertisements". For Americans, it might seem like corporations are the cause of many such ills, but there are societies where e.g aggressive advertisements which are common in the US are non-existent, and people still get in debt, eat badly or drink too many sugary drinks.
- deevolution 8y ago
  Nicotine is physically addictive regardless of if there's an underlying mental health issue or not.
  - dgut 8y ago
    Sure, but any mentally healthy person can quit without too much trouble if they decide to. The problem is when the person isn't mentally healthy, in such case nicotine might even alleviate the suffering so quitting becomes really hard.
    - adrianN 8y ago
      Then you believe that the majority of all smokers are not mentally healthy?
      - 8y ago

porlune 8y ago

Bupropion (wellbutrin) was originally for depression, but can help people quit smoking. Note: the effects appear permanent, and you don't have to continue taking the medication after the first round. Edit: I'm curious why this was downvoted, I'm simply offering information that I know has helped others in this very situation.

scurvy 8y ago
I was going to suggest this, too. It helped me quit smoking. Unsure about the effects on teenagers though. No idea about the down votes; yours is a very reasonable suggestion.

xkfm 8y ago

It's fairly easy to taper your nicotine usage (as well as make your own juice), but I wouldn't expect teenagers to care that much, or use less nicotine even if they were making their own. I had a few incidents with caffeine/energy drinks, but they were arguably a less harmful and definitely cheaper habit.

Implicated 8y ago
What's an 'incident' with caffeine/energy drinks?
- TylerE 8y ago
  It's actually not that hard to OD on caffeine. Doing a couple of strong espressos in a row would do it for many people. Symptoms similar to a panic attack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Overdose https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine#Overdose Then you have stuff like this... https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml
  - deadlydose 8y ago
    > Then you have stuff like this... https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/buzzaire.shtml Scroll to the bottom of the page or click 'Buy Now.'
- 0xcde4c3db 8y ago
  Can't speak for parent specifically, but high doses of caffeine can cause: - Cardiovascular events - Seizures - Panic attacks - Psychotic episodes These are all exceptional, but it's not that difficult to get to the associated dose range, particularly if you have some preexisting vulnerability that lowers the threshold for one or more of them. Since sensitivities vary in general it's hard to nail down any specific number, but the order of magnitude is around a pot of coffee or a six-pack of one of the more potent energy drinks.

mattsfrey 8y ago

Quitting is hard but it's doable. I smoked off and on for 10 years, the last 3 or so was just bumming cigs when out drunk but finally just gave it up entirely when I was about to turn 30, have to reach a point where you decide you're done.

Nasrudith 8y ago

Serious question what did they do to help teenagers quit cigarettes in the many decades past? Teenagers certainly were smoking well before the electronic cigarette was invented and utterly flopped in the 1960s. I don't see how a delivery mechanism is any different except perhaps poorly designed regulation and not bringing down the wrath of god upon them immediately for blatantly violating tobacco advertising laws - I remember far too many radio commercials that weren't even trying to hide it - as 'a smoking cessation commercial that spends 75% of the time talking about the satisfaction and telling them they can use it anywhere'.

013a 8y ago
Delivery mechanism really does matter. Vaping is much more accessible than cigarettes; you can do it indoors with no risk of smelling like anything. You can do it in bathrooms. Also, if Nicotine is the only reason people are addicted to cigarettes, why doesn't something like nicorette see just as much abuse? Delivery mechanism. Cigarette/Vape users are mentally addicted just as much to the routine and throat hit as they are to the chemical. I'd actually argue more-so.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  People have been smoking in bathrooms forever. If large portions of the teenage population were still smoking the schools would explicitly or implicitly give up on forbidding it. Trying to ban a behaviour a third of the population engage in is a losing battle. Look at France https://thinkprogress.org/french-high-school-students-encouraged-to-smoke-indoors- https://thinkprogress.org/french-high-school-students-encour... > In one of the strangest debates that’s resulted from the spate of shootings and bombings across Paris last November, French school administrators are weighing the dangers of teen smoking against the threat of potential terrorist attacks.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
Nothing really. Those vapers would more than likely just be smokers of vaping wasn’t around.

013a 8y ago

> The survey also found that many students believe they are vaping “just flavoring.” In fact, just about all brands include nicotine, and Juul has particularly high levels of it. Wow. What? Minor point, but nearly every flavor of eliquid I've ever seen comes in a 0mg variant. Granted, none of the gas station pod systems have that. More importantly: there is no way in hell you are vaping a Juul and just think its flavored vapor. I have not once seen someone take a hit on a Juul for the first time and not have a small coughing fit. Unless you inherited an impossibly massive genetic nicotine tolerance, the first few times you hit a Juul you're basically going to fly. I've seen one person puke. Having a small brown-out for a second would not be unheard of. Its very strong. Its made for adult smokers who have been smoking for years and want to quit. Its not even that tasty compared to the other less strong brands; nicotine is straight up disgusting, and only gets more disgusting as the concentration grows. I don't believe for a second that kids were genuinely self-reporting that they had no idea, unless they were actually vaping something more like 3mg/ml juice from a normal vape. That, I could see. But a 50mg/ml Juul, absolutely not. That's like saying you drank a shot of vodka and had no idea it wasn't water.

Raidion 8y ago
I agree with you, but as a note, you'll cough just as hard if you hit a 0mg nicotine vape for the first time. It's not the nicotine that makes you cough.
warmblanket 8y ago
Switched from cigarettes to JUUL after 10 years of smoking. I agree on the coughing, but from a straight-up nicotine delivery standpoint, cigarettes seem more pronounced for me.

beizhia 8y ago

These kind of articles always seem odd to me. I've used an e-cig to stop smoking. Worked myself down from 21mg juice to 3mg, step by step. Now I really only use it when I'm out drinking, to prevent myself from wanting a cigarette (old habits do die hard, after all) The e-cig helped, but the real motivator is that I wanted to run and play soccer more effectively. Vaping was just a tool that kept me away from cigarettes.

treve 8y ago
What's odd about it? That people get hooked to nicotine through another delivery mechanism?
ce4 8y ago
And one very nice side effect of vapes that I noticed to be crucial for weaning off more easily: Vaped nicotine feels way less addicting. I think its got something to do with other "active agents" and additives missing compared to cigarettes. Edit: For example, studies have shown cigarette smoke to inhibit MAO in the brain due to some agent besides nicotine, which vaping very probably doesnt. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC19495/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC19495/
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  This, but for the same reason I found vaping not very useful in stopping my cigarette habit (I missed more than just the nicotine). I’ve heard some of the salts in newer vapes have solved that problem, but who knows what those do.
  - ce4 8y ago
    I'm off of both now and even can have a single cigarette every now and then without having a relapse. Glad to have never tried those salts.

warmblanket 8y ago

I smoked for ten years and recently switched to vaping. I don't believe it is necessarily healthier or less addictive, but I do think it might be easier on the lungs and vocal cords (I sing), even though not vaping or smoking at all is clearly the best option. So, I have tried patches before, and I got relentlessly addicted to them. I wore them for something like two years. I have ADHD and take stimulant medication for it, and stimulants are pretty famous for causing tobacco users to smoke a lot more. After I got used to the e-cigarettes/vaping, I don't want to go back. I decline offers from friends for real cigarettes when out drinking at bars/etc., and I have had a pack of cigarettes in my house for about 6 weeks now without smoking a single one. The taste and smell just isn't good anymore now that I'm off the "analogs". It's hard to know how much nicotine I'm ingesting, though. Smoking real cigarettes now gives me a strong nicotine buzz that I don't get from vaping, like that infamous light-headed feeling beginner smokers get. I suspect this is due to vaping delivery being less efficient and more gradually throughout the day, but you would think it would be easier to compare, say, a JUUL to a standard cigarette. The other problem I've had with my JUUL is leaking. The last few pods I have vaped, have all leaked considerable amounts of liquid - sometimes on my lips, sometimes on the sides of the pod and into the chamber. I'm not sure if this is an issue with my device or QC. I clean the device regularly with a Q-Tip. Obviously, leaked liquid is not ingested or vaped, so that's lost nicotine and can't be counted. The same applies to any liquid left in a JUUL pod when it is thrown away. I've started throwing away pods before they are completely empty, because its not working as well. Air bubbles are also a problem and lead to poor performance. Just my experience, I'm sure I'll get harassed for this since I'm discussing vape usage, but addictions are addictions, and not everyone wants to quit.

tigershark 8y ago
If it goes into your lips is not wasted nicotine, on the contrary you are overdosing on it. Nicotine is absorbed by the skin as far as I remember.
- ac29 8y ago
  >Nicotine is absorbed by the skin as far as I remember. Yep, of course it is, otherwise nicotine patches wouldn't work. It's also absorbed through mucous membranes in the mouth (see dip, chew, snus, etc).

jdnier 8y ago

I remember an interesting summary posted on HN back in 2013 about nicotine and tobacco. This was before vaping became popular, but the case he made was that nicotine is actually not very addictive on it own, but seems to reinforce addiction in the presence of other compounds found in tobacco (e.g., MAOIs). Lots of primary sources given. So what else is in vaping liquid? "Nicotine as a useful stimulant" (gwern.net) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6457772

boomboomsubban 8y ago
Most of what I've seen calls nicotine one of the most addictive drugs, but even if it's not that addictive it could still be causing these problems. Addictiveness describes how likely you are to develop a dependency after using some amount of times, and presumably these people are vaping many times before addicted.
nicotine_temp 8y ago
Positive comments about nicotine in the LessWrong community were a major reason why I started vaping. I found the addiction to be less serious than commonly claimed, but I also found the beneficial effects to be small. I couldn't say with confidence that it's better than caffeine, and caffeine is more socially acceptable. I don't suppose I'd be shadowbanned for telling people my experience of caffeine.

nicotine_temp 8y ago

In my own experience, nicotine was not very addictive. As a non-smoker, I started vaping 36mg/ml nicotine in unflavored propylene glycol. I used a high concentration to minimize exposure to any unknown non-nicotine risks. I vaped heavily for about 2 years before getting bored of it. I tapered the dose to zero over two weeks and experienced only mild withdrawal symptoms. It's been about four years since I quit and I've never felt the effects were sufficiently interesting or enjoyable to start again.

Simulacra 8y ago

Isn't this by design?

Raidion 8y ago

As someone who has never smoked, but juuls occasionally, I would like to see some studies on the health effects on nicotine alone. Much of the anti smoking literature focuses on the health effects of inhaling burning plant matter along with nicotine. How different is a straight nicotine addiction from that of a coffee addiction? A heavy coffee drinker is chemically dependent on the caffeine, but there isn't any cultural or even health pressure to quit coffee (unless some heart/BP issues). You even see articles that say that coffee has health benefits. I go through great lengths to insure that I don't become dependent on either, though I enjoy both. Caffeine really does reduce fatigue, and nicotine 'dials you in' when you're focusing. Wish I knew what the chemicals themselves were doing to me without the complications from the delivery systems.

deleted 8y ago
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elektor 8y ago
Here is a new study that looked at urine samples from only smokers, only e-cig users, dual smokers, and never smokers: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2718096?widget=personalizedcontent&previousarticle=0 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... If you look at Figure 1, the e-cig users and never smokers are pretty similar.
atomi 8y ago
Nicotine does a good job of raising your blood pressure.

TagAsDelusion 8y ago

regulatory pretext