10 ms·

I once had to write a program for a class didn't have access to a compiler. I wrote it all in notepad and double checked everything more thoroughly than I ever

I once had to write a program for a class didn't have access to a compiler. I wrote it all in notepad and double checked everything more thoroughly than I ever would have done otherwise. When I got the computer lab the compiler found one or two type-o's and the program ran perfectly the first time. The experience changed how I write code. It's worth trying out at least one time.

DanHulton 8y ago
I used to sit in my grade 12 English class working out polygon fill-and-shade routines on graph paper instead of whatever nonsense Shakespeare we were going through at the time. Worked out really well for me - I'm employed well as a programmer, and I got to come to Shakespeare basically fresh when I was old enough to actually appreciate the work.
- ams6110 8y ago
  How old is that? I'm over 50 and I still can't get into Shakespeare. Watching a performance is OK, though not something I'd choose to do on my own, but reading the plays? Can't get into it at all.
  - munificent 8y ago
    Have you tried an annotated one? Shakespeare is full of, essentially, in-jokes and memes from the 1500s. There is a ton of depth in his writing that you'll totally miss if you don't know all of that context.
    - crooked-v 8y ago
      Also, lots of bawdy humor that gets glossed over by staid and respectable modern productions. For example: the "bite your thumb" gesture that gets used in a few plays is pretty much the equivalent of somebody from today giving a double middle finger while sticking their tongue out.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - zmix 8y ago
    Try the "Sonetts" instead of the plays!
    - johndubchak 8y ago
      Just program.
  - nimithryn 8y ago
    Try watching a movie version - I really like Branagh's Hamlet and I never expected to (long though)
ryandrake 8y ago
To me, this is one way to show evidence of mastery of an engineering discipline: The ability to do it once and have it come out right. If you asked a modern software engineer who's used to fast modern tools, they'd tell you this was impossible. Everyone's pretty much settled into this kind of workflow: Write -> Compile -> Fix Compile Errors -> Compile -> Fix Compile Errors -> Compile -> Fix Compile Errors -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Git Push and Pray With maybe a few "Write Unit Tests" steps intermixed. Totally different mentality. Is it really a faster or more productive way to work?
- EpicEng 8y ago
  Do you really encounter compiler errors that frequently? The compiler stopped barking at me for the most part after my first year or two.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    During big refactorings, I admit I sometimes find myself relying on compiler errors as a crutch to find (for example) which API layer I haven’t added the parameter to yet. I’ll also rely heavily on my IDE’s function signature completion, to remind me whether some method I’m calling takes an int or an unsigned int, rather than have it memorized like I used to. This might be why a lot of people (including me) hate whiteboard-coding interviews: we’ve gotten so spoiled by our tools that we can’t code without them!
    - zozbot123 8y ago
      > During big refactorings, I admit I sometimes find myself relying on compiler errors as a crutch to find (for example) which API layer I haven’t added the parameter to yet. That's not a 'crutch' - it's literally what those compiler errors are for! The alternative would be for the compiler to do something non-sensical, which would error out at runtime. And when it comes to white-board coding, you should arguably be using pseudo-code anyway - your goal is then not to come up with something that will run, but to convince your interviewer that the code is 'morally' correct and that any subsequent fixes are well within your skill level.
dfan 8y ago
When I was a kid, I learned Pascal from a book. We didn't even have a PC at home (it was the 80s) but my mother was a college professor and had access to the mainframe there. I wrote out a whole program to run Conway's Game of Life on a bunch of notebook paper, and one day when I was off from school I came in and typed the whole thing in at a terminal. I ran the command to compile it, and it spit out hundreds of syntax errors. Then it was time to go home. It was not an auspicious start to my career in computer science.
- Radim 8y ago
  > It was not an auspicious start to my career in computer science. I'd argue the opposite! Learning how to "run" code in your head, cover edge cases and invariants, is a great skill to practice. When I was at a hospital after a difficult operation, I used to write down pages and pages of C64 programs in my notebook, too :-) Even if I never even typed all them out later, I like to think this made me a better programmer. It trains your brain in a way that REPL doesn't.
  - pjmorris 8y ago
    I sometimes worry that I've become REPL-dependent.
- kabdib 8y ago
  That's how I learned C. I bought a copy of K&R, but didn't have access to a Unix system with a C compiler for about a month (when my new job started). I read the book and wrote out all the exercises in a notebook. When it came time to try my code, I spent a while correcting some basic misconceptions that I had developed but that hadn't been corrected by an actual compiler.
no-s 8y ago
I originally learned to program in 6502 machine code. Typically I would write code in spiral notebooks while watching the late late late show and hexkeypad it in afterwards. made it a little easier to edit things that way...
legohead 8y ago
I got into this type of thinking/habit by working for a couple startups and programming live on prod...
kccqzy 8y ago
I had a similar experience! When I first learned programming, it was through a book I borrowed from a teacher, who would only let me access her computer once a week. So I basically wrote all the programs I wanted to write with pen and paper, and then typed them and ran them once a week. It definitely gave me a much thorough understanding of many algorithms, as I basically have to simulate execution on paper.

DanHulton 8y ago

I used to sit in my grade 12 English class working out polygon fill-and-shade routines on graph paper instead of whatever nonsense Shakespeare we were going through at the time. Worked out really well for me - I'm employed well as a programmer, and I got to come to Shakespeare basically fresh when I was old enough to actually appreciate the work.

ams6110 8y ago
How old is that? I'm over 50 and I still can't get into Shakespeare. Watching a performance is OK, though not something I'd choose to do on my own, but reading the plays? Can't get into it at all.
- munificent 8y ago
  Have you tried an annotated one? Shakespeare is full of, essentially, in-jokes and memes from the 1500s. There is a ton of depth in his writing that you'll totally miss if you don't know all of that context.
  - crooked-v 8y ago
    Also, lots of bawdy humor that gets glossed over by staid and respectable modern productions. For example: the "bite your thumb" gesture that gets used in a few plays is pretty much the equivalent of somebody from today giving a double middle finger while sticking their tongue out.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- zmix 8y ago
  Try the "Sonetts" instead of the plays!
  - johndubchak 8y ago
    Just program.
- nimithryn 8y ago
  Try watching a movie version - I really like Branagh's Hamlet and I never expected to (long though)

ryandrake 8y ago

To me, this is one way to show evidence of mastery of an engineering discipline: The ability to do it once and have it come out right. If you asked a modern software engineer who's used to fast modern tools, they'd tell you this was impossible. Everyone's pretty much settled into this kind of workflow: Write -> Compile -> Fix Compile Errors -> Compile -> Fix Compile Errors -> Compile -> Fix Compile Errors -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Compile -> Run -> Fix Runtime Bugs -> Git Push and Pray With maybe a few "Write Unit Tests" steps intermixed. Totally different mentality. Is it really a faster or more productive way to work?

EpicEng 8y ago
Do you really encounter compiler errors that frequently? The compiler stopped barking at me for the most part after my first year or two.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  During big refactorings, I admit I sometimes find myself relying on compiler errors as a crutch to find (for example) which API layer I haven’t added the parameter to yet. I’ll also rely heavily on my IDE’s function signature completion, to remind me whether some method I’m calling takes an int or an unsigned int, rather than have it memorized like I used to. This might be why a lot of people (including me) hate whiteboard-coding interviews: we’ve gotten so spoiled by our tools that we can’t code without them!
  - zozbot123 8y ago
    > During big refactorings, I admit I sometimes find myself relying on compiler errors as a crutch to find (for example) which API layer I haven’t added the parameter to yet. That's not a 'crutch' - it's literally what those compiler errors are for! The alternative would be for the compiler to do something non-sensical, which would error out at runtime. And when it comes to white-board coding, you should arguably be using pseudo-code anyway - your goal is then not to come up with something that will run, but to convince your interviewer that the code is 'morally' correct and that any subsequent fixes are well within your skill level.

dfan 8y ago

When I was a kid, I learned Pascal from a book. We didn't even have a PC at home (it was the 80s) but my mother was a college professor and had access to the mainframe there. I wrote out a whole program to run Conway's Game of Life on a bunch of notebook paper, and one day when I was off from school I came in and typed the whole thing in at a terminal. I ran the command to compile it, and it spit out hundreds of syntax errors. Then it was time to go home. It was not an auspicious start to my career in computer science.

Radim 8y ago
> It was not an auspicious start to my career in computer science. I'd argue the opposite! Learning how to "run" code in your head, cover edge cases and invariants, is a great skill to practice. When I was at a hospital after a difficult operation, I used to write down pages and pages of C64 programs in my notebook, too :-) Even if I never even typed all them out later, I like to think this made me a better programmer. It trains your brain in a way that REPL doesn't.
- pjmorris 8y ago
  I sometimes worry that I've become REPL-dependent.
kabdib 8y ago
That's how I learned C. I bought a copy of K&R, but didn't have access to a Unix system with a C compiler for about a month (when my new job started). I read the book and wrote out all the exercises in a notebook. When it came time to try my code, I spent a while correcting some basic misconceptions that I had developed but that hadn't been corrected by an actual compiler.

no-s 8y ago

I originally learned to program in 6502 machine code. Typically I would write code in spiral notebooks while watching the late late late show and hexkeypad it in afterwards. made it a little easier to edit things that way...

legohead 8y ago

I got into this type of thinking/habit by working for a couple startups and programming live on prod...

kccqzy 8y ago

I had a similar experience! When I first learned programming, it was through a book I borrowed from a teacher, who would only let me access her computer once a week. So I basically wrote all the programs I wanted to write with pen and paper, and then typed them and ran them once a week. It definitely gave me a much thorough understanding of many algorithms, as I basically have to simulate execution on paper.