4 ms·

I do not mean to attack you, but my initial reaction is similar to OP - this just reeks of BS. > How Juul, founded on a life-saving mission, became the most em

I do not mean to attack you, but my initial reaction is similar to OP - this just reeks of BS. > How Juul, founded on a life-saving mission, became the most embattled startup of 2018 A life-saving mission? They are currently being banned by the FDA, the organization that Trump just defanged, for their sale of questionably safe products targeted at children. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/health/juul-ecigarettes-vaping-teenagers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/health/juul-ecigarettes-v...

Scoundreller 8y ago
Did they really target children, or just create flavours that were desired by both adults and children? What flavour should they make that don’t (theoretically) appeal the children? Beer? Anchovies? Broccoli? Mesquite BBQ? Adults can like bubblegum or sweet and fruity flavours. I know I ask for them from my dentist for my cleanings instead of mint.
- koboll 8y ago
  Yeah it's odd that Green Apple Smirnoff Ice can continue to exist and yet flavored JUUL is banned.
  - my_username_is_ 8y ago
    The differences in addictivity between alcohol and nicotine seem like a pretty significant difference
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      Except alcohol is directly harmful, nicotine is barely harmful. And nobody has ever died from nicotine withdrawal. Or smashed their car after inhaling nicotine.
      - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
        Literally tens of millions of people have died because of nicotine addiction, so your comment is so frankly ridiculous it doesn't even deserve a more considered response.
        pizza 8y ago
        I read their comment as making a distinction between nicotine intake of arbitrary delivery system vs smoke inhalation of a tobacco + MAOI panoply ('cigarettes'). I can envision a world where nicotine addicts don't have to hurt themselves nearly as much to get their fix. I say that with the disclaimer that I don't think that makes it good, per se - just pragmatically a lot better.
        jwdunne 8y ago
        That's not entirely fair because there's a distinction between nicotine and smoking. The method of delivery killed those nicotine addicts. None of those nicotine addicts died as a direct result of what nicotine does to the body. Combusting tobacco and inhaling the smoke is what killed them (ignoring chewing or snorting). If I used a patch, I can continue my nicotine addiction without fear of lung disease. I can't do the same with smoking. There's no method of delivering a habitual psychoactive dose of alcohol that doesn't cause harm. But all said and done, I'm not sure vaping nicotine, with all those flavours, has been proven safe. There's a lot of talk about popcorn lung.
  - UncleMeat 8y ago
    Maybe ban advertising for that as well? Culture is complex and produces inconsistent behavior. That doesn't mean we should try to do better.
- brm 8y ago
  You have a point on the flavors but the problems with the marketing in Juul’s early years we’re pretty evident... https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathleenchaykowski/2018/11/16/the-disturbing-focus-of-juuls-early-marketing-campaigns/#1239d57814f9 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathleenchaykowski/2018/11/16/t... The SRITA archive is pretty damning
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    It doesn’t seem any more damning than typical alcohol advertising. > His archived Juul ads are filled with attractive young models socializing and flirtatiously sharing the flash-drive shaped device, displaying behavior like dancing to club-like music and clothing styles more characteristic of teens than mature adults. In a country where you have to be 21+ to get into a club, what club music is characteristic of teens instead of adults?
    - wpietri 8y ago
      > It doesn’t seem any more damning than typical alcohol advertising. That strikes me as a pretty low bar. People used to say the same thing about cigarette ads. Which in retrospect were horrific. I once chatted with some people researching at the Legacy Tobacco Documents Library: https://www.industrydocumentslibrary.ucsf.edu/tobacco/ https://www.industrydocumentslibrary.ucsf.edu/tobacco/ They had story after story about the depravity of the tobacco advertising industry. The one that stuck with me was the advertising campaign targeted at developmentally disabled adults. Once hooked they were very loyal consumers.

Scoundreller 8y ago

Did they really target children, or just create flavours that were desired by both adults and children? What flavour should they make that don’t (theoretically) appeal the children? Beer? Anchovies? Broccoli? Mesquite BBQ? Adults can like bubblegum or sweet and fruity flavours. I know I ask for them from my dentist for my cleanings instead of mint.

koboll 8y ago
Yeah it's odd that Green Apple Smirnoff Ice can continue to exist and yet flavored JUUL is banned.
- my_username_is_ 8y ago
  The differences in addictivity between alcohol and nicotine seem like a pretty significant difference
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    Except alcohol is directly harmful, nicotine is barely harmful. And nobody has ever died from nicotine withdrawal. Or smashed their car after inhaling nicotine.
    - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
      Literally tens of millions of people have died because of nicotine addiction, so your comment is so frankly ridiculous it doesn't even deserve a more considered response.
      - pizza 8y ago
        I read their comment as making a distinction between nicotine intake of arbitrary delivery system vs smoke inhalation of a tobacco + MAOI panoply ('cigarettes'). I can envision a world where nicotine addicts don't have to hurt themselves nearly as much to get their fix. I say that with the disclaimer that I don't think that makes it good, per se - just pragmatically a lot better.
      - jwdunne 8y ago
        That's not entirely fair because there's a distinction between nicotine and smoking. The method of delivery killed those nicotine addicts. None of those nicotine addicts died as a direct result of what nicotine does to the body. Combusting tobacco and inhaling the smoke is what killed them (ignoring chewing or snorting). If I used a patch, I can continue my nicotine addiction without fear of lung disease. I can't do the same with smoking. There's no method of delivering a habitual psychoactive dose of alcohol that doesn't cause harm. But all said and done, I'm not sure vaping nicotine, with all those flavours, has been proven safe. There's a lot of talk about popcorn lung.
- UncleMeat 8y ago
  Maybe ban advertising for that as well? Culture is complex and produces inconsistent behavior. That doesn't mean we should try to do better.
brm 8y ago
You have a point on the flavors but the problems with the marketing in Juul’s early years we’re pretty evident... https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathleenchaykowski/2018/11/16/the-disturbing-focus-of-juuls-early-marketing-campaigns/#1239d57814f9 https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathleenchaykowski/2018/11/16/t... The SRITA archive is pretty damning
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  It doesn’t seem any more damning than typical alcohol advertising. > His archived Juul ads are filled with attractive young models socializing and flirtatiously sharing the flash-drive shaped device, displaying behavior like dancing to club-like music and clothing styles more characteristic of teens than mature adults. In a country where you have to be 21+ to get into a club, what club music is characteristic of teens instead of adults?
  - wpietri 8y ago
    > It doesn’t seem any more damning than typical alcohol advertising. That strikes me as a pretty low bar. People used to say the same thing about cigarette ads. Which in retrospect were horrific. I once chatted with some people researching at the Legacy Tobacco Documents Library: https://www.industrydocumentslibrary.ucsf.edu/tobacco/ https://www.industrydocumentslibrary.ucsf.edu/tobacco/ They had story after story about the depravity of the tobacco advertising industry. The one that stuck with me was the advertising campaign targeted at developmentally disabled adults. Once hooked they were very loyal consumers.