5 ms·

Traditionally I think it's fair to describe the classes in terms of their future which I'll just describe as 'economic planning.' - Lower class: No economic pl

by rjf72 8y ago

Traditionally I think it's fair to describe the classes in terms of their future which I'll just describe as 'economic planning.' - Lower class: No economic planning and living hand to mouth. Nearly all of what they earn goes often entirely to pay for the bare necessities needed to repeat the cycle against next month. - Middle class: Basic economic planning. Able to save a bit for retirement, a rainy day, or just a family vacation. Traditionally could afford to support themselves, one other adult partner, and two children. - Upper class: Extensive economic planning. Earns far in excess of their immediate or future needs meaning most of their money is spent in 'planning', often geared at earning more money. --- Traditional manufacturing jobs would definitely have been middle class. White collar jobs used to generally be upper class, but now a days that's certainly not the case. Working class is a different distinction altogether and that is just talking about people that need to work in order to be able to sustain themselves.

zozbot123 8y ago
Future orientation, a.k.a. do you eat the marshmallow or not? (And note that if you're constantly hungry, cranky and stressed out, you're a lot more likely to go for that tasty, tempting marshmallow. Feedback loops are a thing!)
api 8y ago
Your last paragraph nails a lot of the source of modern middle class rage. White collar is now just barely middle class. Everything else is living hand to mouth.
- zozbot123 8y ago
  You're right, economic security has indeed declined sharply for that formerly-privileged segment. Now, given that living standards are still quite high and growing over time, you'd hope they would react by being frugal and saving more, not by living even more hand-to-mouth than they used to! But ingrained habits are slow to change.
  - api 8y ago
    "Formerly privileged..." This is dangerous race to the bottom thinking. The hidden assumption there is that previous generations of middle class people didn't deserve it and that our overall standards should be declining. I was bringing up the decline of the middle class a while back in a discussion of why Trump won. Someone else said no, its racism, and people are just angry about the loss of their privilege. They pointed out that the black white income gap had shrunk. Here's the thing though. That's conflating two issues. Racism is real, sure, and yes the black white income gap has shrunk in part due to activism against racial discrimination. But... if the middle class were healthier then blacks with their now-shrunken income gap would be doing much better. If the middle class is dying then the entire struggle for racial income equality becomes a squabble over deck chairs on the Titanic. Also on saving: the problem is that necessities like housing and health care have exploded. Costs have exploded precisely in those areas that are hardest to trim in a budget. The price of optional expenses like gadgets and entertainment has fallen.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      Relative poverty versus absolute. People get angry at clearly having less of the pie than someone else, even if they have enough in some sense. Sometimes, trying to even the playing field (or outcomes) can throw the baby out with the bathwater and lead to "We would all rather be equally poor than unequally better off."
      - api 8y ago
        Yes. It also comes in the form of resentment or jealousy e.g. "those union fat cats make too much" vs "how could I make as much as those union fat cats?" Race to the bottom mentalities are deadly at all levels from working class all the way up to corporate strategy. In the corporate world you see it when companies focus only on their competition and struggle to undercut each other instead of focusing on creating customer value. You get a deflationary race to the bottom that kills both margins and product quality. It ends with a market full of gutted companies competing to make crap.

by rjf72 8y ago

zozbot123 8y ago

Future orientation, a.k.a. do you eat the marshmallow or not? (And note that if you're constantly hungry, cranky and stressed out, you're a lot more likely to go for that tasty, tempting marshmallow. Feedback loops are a thing!)

api 8y ago

Your last paragraph nails a lot of the source of modern middle class rage. White collar is now just barely middle class. Everything else is living hand to mouth.

zozbot123 8y ago
You're right, economic security has indeed declined sharply for that formerly-privileged segment. Now, given that living standards are still quite high and growing over time, you'd hope they would react by being frugal and saving more, not by living even more hand-to-mouth than they used to! But ingrained habits are slow to change.
- api 8y ago
  "Formerly privileged..." This is dangerous race to the bottom thinking. The hidden assumption there is that previous generations of middle class people didn't deserve it and that our overall standards should be declining. I was bringing up the decline of the middle class a while back in a discussion of why Trump won. Someone else said no, its racism, and people are just angry about the loss of their privilege. They pointed out that the black white income gap had shrunk. Here's the thing though. That's conflating two issues. Racism is real, sure, and yes the black white income gap has shrunk in part due to activism against racial discrimination. But... if the middle class were healthier then blacks with their now-shrunken income gap would be doing much better. If the middle class is dying then the entire struggle for racial income equality becomes a squabble over deck chairs on the Titanic. Also on saving: the problem is that necessities like housing and health care have exploded. Costs have exploded precisely in those areas that are hardest to trim in a budget. The price of optional expenses like gadgets and entertainment has fallen.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Relative poverty versus absolute. People get angry at clearly having less of the pie than someone else, even if they have enough in some sense. Sometimes, trying to even the playing field (or outcomes) can throw the baby out with the bathwater and lead to "We would all rather be equally poor than unequally better off."
    - api 8y ago
      Yes. It also comes in the form of resentment or jealousy e.g. "those union fat cats make too much" vs "how could I make as much as those union fat cats?" Race to the bottom mentalities are deadly at all levels from working class all the way up to corporate strategy. In the corporate world you see it when companies focus only on their competition and struggle to undercut each other instead of focusing on creating customer value. You get a deflationary race to the bottom that kills both margins and product quality. It ends with a market full of gutted companies competing to make crap.