31 ms·
1980s Amiga has been running the AC and heat in 19 schools for 30 years
- dawid-s 8y agoSomething I don't understand is how come can it cost so much to relace an old Amiga to control AC? What about a regular PC with some smart software? Is this the cost of other hardware that is so expensive?
- zozbot123 8y agoI like Amiga, but you could probably do whatever that machine is doing with some Arduino-class hardware these days. I don't think the challenges are technical in nature. Edit: And as the comment thread in the article explains they're probably renovating the whole HVAC system, not just replacing that single Amiga.
- adetrest 8y agoProbably because it's a public school, so it has to go through a tender process with an absurd number of requirements and paperwork. That'll 10x the cost because of the extra paperwork.
- patrickg_zill 8y agoThere are only a few vendors and if you get it wrong the school can end up with a $3000 bill for power over the usual charges. The actual programming and hardware is incredibly simple.
- jacquesm 8y agoLooks like the cure is a lot more expensive than having the disease would be.
- tyingq 8y agoIt reads like the current system is probably using AX.25 wireless packet radio to communicate with the other schools. I suspect this type of use case with amateur radio is, at best, a grey area in terms of regulatory compliance. The replacement still shouldn't cost as much, but I'll bet it's more than just replacing the PC. It's also coming up with some kind of cross-school network, if one doesn't already exist. And compliance with the inevitable mountain of government requirements.
- tk75x 8y agoAnother comment mentioned this already, but a single low end PLC for the central control unit (such as https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/overview/catalog/programmable_controllers/click_series_plcs_(stackable_micro_brick) https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/overview/catalog/progra... ) plus RDCs at each building would cost under $5000 easily, all while being in compliance with any standards governing such equipment.
- mrweasel 8y agoMy guess is that it doesn’t, that’s the cost of the new computer system and replacing parts of the old AC.
- blihp 8y agoIt doesn't. The same type of solution could be provided today with a low cost PC/embedded system with a trivial amount of specialized hardware. The cost for a modern version of what they had (solving any major issues the old system had) would be a fraction of the cost and time the original took. But no business owner in their right mind wants to be stuck selling that: low margin, virtually no growth. What they replaced it with is something completely different than what they had.
- chrisseaton 8y agoWhy does this need to be centralised like this? Why not a normal consumer thermostat or manual control in each building?
- closeparen 8y agoInstitutions like to exercise strict central control over setpoints to manage energy costs. Remote access also saves a lot of time and driving for the handful of maintenance staff who manage dozens of sites.
- protomyth 8y agoHVAC is much cheaper centralized. Things like off peak in floor heating are just the start of optimizations that can be done. Heck, even having one building on something else leads to pain.
- chrisseaton 8y agoBut if it's on something else presumably it's because the people working in that building have decided that's the temperature they need to be comfortable. Should trust people in the locations to be sensible.
- ianwalter 8y agoNot only that but you can still program todays thermostats with the optimizations/rules that you would in the central system anyway. Program it once, set it and forget it, and of course, give maintenance staff manual access as well.
- protomyth 8y agoYou overestimate the average ability of the office worker to know how the system works. Getting the temperature comfortable for a group of people is sometimes problematic and allowing one person to make others uncomfortable is not a happy thing. Plus, the central controls tends to keeps things even and extends the life of equipment. Cost is an issue and people changing temperature everywhere sends costs up.
- mtts 8y ago"The original system was programmed by a high school student in the ’80s, and he’s the only one who knows how to fix software glitches. " Wow ... That is beyond irresponsible ...
- EliRivers 8y agoPretty standard, I think. I know of lots of software running business critical functions that are unmaintainable for want of lost knowledge.
- tom_ 8y agoThe comparison to a modern laptop is interesting, but a more apt comparison would probably be to a modern desktop, which would probably be pretty easy to keep running for more than 4-5 years. (The Amiga does have a bunch of outdated stuff in it, but the circuit board is quite large, with mostly standard-sized ICs, and other Amigas can typically be cannibalized for components. The repair options for a modern laptop on the other hand seem to be rather limited: everything's tiny, it's machine-assembled, there's five chips on the entire board and each one has 1100 pins. If something goes wrong, you need to replace all of it.)
- ianwalter 8y agoThe comparison is definitely for the wow-factor and not accuracy, but I dont know why they would do this if their readers are geeks.
- UncleEntity 8y ago> The comparison to a modern laptop is interesting... Nah, my ~8 year old laptop was still trying to process all the js to render their site even after I finished reading the article and hit the back button -- that's probably the standard they're holding up here... But, really, the only problems I ever have with this old lappy is the occasional bug that slips through the Fedora testing process and a battery that really should be replaced.
- grogenaut 8y agoMy 8 year old laptop has Quad 2Ghz Processors and 16GB ram and a 500GB SSD. It's running ubuntu on a swing arm wall mount in my garage over my electronics station next to the lathe and below the lexan protected 4k tv. It' works great in that capacity and I don't see it dying any time soon. 8 Years ago was 2010. My replacement laptop is basically 2x the power of the old one, and that's really only for short bursts due to thermal issues. Actually the one in the garage likely is better for large parts of the year because it's cold in the garage.
- jen729w 8y agoMy mid-2011 MacBook Air is still going strong. SSDs changed everything. What’s to wear out other than fan bearings?
- dingdingdang 8y agoWhy not simply put the software onto a PC? All it would need is a Windows license and a Cloanto License (https://www.amigaforever.com/ https://www.amigaforever.com/) to run the emulation? WinUAE has been stable for years now and the ease with which the system could be automated should make up for any smaller issues encountered in terms of hardware interop.
- ekianjo 8y agoExactly. No need to invest in a new equipment: just replace the Amiga by a cheap PC (or even a Raspberry Pi!) and run everything in UAE (you don't even need a Windows license).
- russnewcomer 8y agoLikely due to the 1200 baud modem used having some traits that aren’t easily handled and would require some very specialized code to handle. Great, now you have two pieces of esoteric code that need to be supported. They likely have a comfort level in repairing the physical Amiga that they wouldn’t have on staff with an emulation system.
- tyingq 8y agoSounds like AX.25 packet radio. So probably possible to replace with more modern hardware. But yeah, a little more than a typical public school building maintenance staff probably wants to deal with.
- 1996 8y agoWhy not leave it as is? If it's not broken, don't fix it. They are going to spend $2 millions breaking something that works. And that's if they are lucky and it doesn't go over budget.
- smcl 8y agoIt's going to break at some point, so you can either plan for that and take a little bit of time to analyse the current setup and design something that could run for another 30 years ... or wait until it breaks and then build a new system
- sambeau 8y ago"It’ll cost about $1.5 to 2 million to replace the Amiga" :facepalm:
- wallace_f 8y agoThe U2 spy plane, quite an engineering marvel, was about a million bucks to buy. Yes I know the fed reserve's been steadily devaluating the dollar (and some standard inflation), but I think it's still telling.
- Retric 8y agoU2 spy plane as originally designed is actually really quite simple. They keep updating the equipment inside, but the aircraft would be easy to replace. It has a minimal payload which allows for very high altitudes. Replacing it for under 10 million unit cost the USD equivalent in 1955 money seems very reasonable. PS: The F-22 for example along with a huge swath of military aircraft can also fly over 65,000 feet. But, rather than just carry a camera they also need to have weapon systems etc.
- wallace_f 8y agoAre you sure? A more-reasonable comparison would be the Global Hawk, which is the U2's successor, and costs (220,000,000. I agree a 10 million seems reasonable today. That was the point.
- Retric 8y agoGlobal Hawk does 34 hours without refueling. That's well beyond the U2's performance and the core issue. The military wants to push the envelope on what's possible which get's expensive. Also, be careful comparing just the name. Today's U2 were built in the 1980s and are about 40% larger than the original design. They also include a lot more electronics where the orional needed to land and get film developed.
- 8y ago
- samfisher83 8y agoIn the article it says the system was programmed by a highschool student 30 years ago. Now the replacement cost is 1.5-2 million.
- rvense 8y agoThey should just get the same guy to redo it with a Pi or a second-hand laptop.
- okket 8y agoRight. I wonder what this Amgia can do what a Raspberry Pi or even ESP8266 can't? Bit banging a simple maintenance radio / 1200 baud protocol should not be that hard?
- pcdoodle 8y agoThis would shit the bed in less than a year. Pi will corrupt the sd card after a few ungraceful shut downs.
- PavlovsCat 8y agoRun an Amiga emulator on it, never shut down! And because it's cheap, run that three times, and have an emulated gameboy sound the alarm if one of the three stops responding, or delivers a different answer than the other two. Getting it all into a software state that can easily be transferred to "something that runs Linux and this emulator that requires next to nothing" certainly seems sensible at any rate.
- blhack 8y agoI have a PI in an interactive art installation that gets power cycled pretty freaking often, and so far the card has held up. It is something I worry about though.
- lostlogin 8y agoCan you just duplicate the card and use that image as a backup? I’ve stashed a few away like this but pcdoodle’s suggested solution sounds a lot more elegant.
- tyingq 8y agoDiscussed here before in 2015: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9705830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9705830
- lsh 8y agoand the original source of both the engadget and geek articles: https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/1980s-computer-controls-grps-heat-and-ac_20180329064517550/1086705524 https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/1980s-computer-cont...
- protomyth 8y agoThat would be great. Try keeping a MS-DOS computer with a ‘special’ controller board up for the same length of time. No putting the card in a newer computer since timing is a thing. Boilers are a pain. I guess we will get rid of it finally in a couple of years.
- zozbot123 8y agoWhy are you still using MS-DOG, of all things, for something that could nowadays be easily done by an Arduino? I mean, at least the Amiga was designed with some worthwhile soft-realtime properties, due to its nature as the first mass-marketed multimedia computer. But an IBM-compatible PC, with a bespoke controller board? Really?
- protomyth 8y agoWell, there is no option to change to an Arduino. If you have no other way to handle it and no access to any documentation to program something else then you keep what you have running until you buy a replacement.
- mikestew 8y agoWhy are you still using MS-DOG If you can’t figure that out for yourself, the good news is that there’s still plenty to learn about this industry (and “industry” in general), and you’re unlikely to get bored. In the meantime, something something Chesterton’s Fence.
- ianwalter 8y agoThe most surprising part for me is that they have AC at all. (at least some) Schools in MA don’t and I bet it gets hotter than Grand Rapids.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sbradford26 8y agoWest Michigan native here. A big reason why the schools have AC is the humidity in the summer. Since we are right next to Lake Michigan.
- astura 8y agoExactly. No primary or secondary schools I ever went to had A/C, this is in the Northeast. I recall some unpleasant days at 90+ degrees with 90%+ humidity, but it's just the way it was.
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoI only skimmed the article but I didn't see anything about the local systems that receive the commands? Or really why they need computerised control rather than local controllers. There must be off-the-shelf components to plugin in to replace the on-site controllers that can be controlled remotely? Also, what's the chance the modem just connects over POTS to another modem with no controls on authorisation?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rexarex 8y agoAt McMurdo Station, Antarctica the ~2000 line phone system still runs on a NEC PBX purchased second-hand in the 60s from a prison. A couple years ago a line card broke and so a staff member was sent on a mission to go to a junkyard in Nebraska and harvest all the spare parts they could out of an old one. They’re finally moving over to VOIP, but there was something romantic about this giant refrigerator sized behemoth, ready to break down at a moments notice. The battery backup system for it was homemade, about 24 car batteries in another room on a shelf, daisy chained together behind an inverted. Soon, it’ll be replaced with two pizza box sized servers.
- travbrack 8y agoI'm surprised you can find a mid century PBX in a junk yard, and that if you could the parts wouldn't be completely destroyed by the elements. Is there some kind of indoor tech junkyard somewhere?
- perplexes 8y agoRE-PC in Seattle is like an indoor tech junkyard.
- freedomben 8y agodang it, was just up there for kubecon and would have loved to visit such a place :-(
- kayfox 8y ago3R is too on some levels.
- tjohns 8y agoWeird Stuff in the Bay Area used to be exactly this. Until it closed down earlier this year, sadly. HSC is the equivalent for lower-level electronic parts. They’ll also be closing down in January.
- 8y ago
- londons_explore 8y agoWhy exactly did the schools have to be networked together in the first place? They don't share boilers or anything I'm guessing.
- boomlinde 8y agoGiven that the Amiga supposedly replaced a refrigerator sized computer, probably to avoid buying 18 more. If it's all controlled by radio anyway, what's the point in decentralizing?
- giarc 8y ago>The original system was programmed by a high school student in the ’80s, and he’s the only one who knows how to fix software glitches. This is the best part of the article. I remember a fellow student in 1995 being asked to make the website for our whole school board. He had played around with some WYSIWYG program back then and excelled.
- squarefoot 8y ago"It’ll cost about $1.5 to 2 million to replace the Amiga" I'm doing the job for 1/4 of that money, just pay me economy class trip and a motel. Seriously, 1.5 to 2 million dollars? The Amiga, although it was an amazing piece of hardware (I owned 500, 600, 2000, and 4000), was far from being certified for any industrial use, so I wouldn't expect any extra spending in that context. Even using the industry standard for the job (PLCs) would be cheaper let alone using smaller single board computers (no, I'm not referring to Arduino or Raspberry PI, there are rugged solutions well below $500) and doing all development in house. Do I miss something or they overextimated that spending by at least one order of magnitude?
- delinka 8y agoHow many fully competent people can execute on this less-expensive plan, and do it correctly? How many of those are motivated to do this project? How many of those carry the necessary certifications to work on the industrial parts of the system? How many of those are 'qualified' to bid on the job?
- downandout 8y agoThis actually should have been the headline, not the fact that a school is still using some old technology. My guess is that an "approved vendor" has sold them on a ridiculously overpriced system and that 90%+ of that cost would go straight to the vendor's bottom line. The hard part there is becoming an approved vendor. There are companies that do nothing other than go around to various county/state agencies and get these approvals. Then they cozy up to every purchase decision maker at every government entity they can get to within the jurisdictions in which they have been approved, and essentially just drop ship drastically overpriced products to them. It's great work if you can get it.
- Declanomous 8y agoI wouldn't be surprised if the new system has some features billed as saving tens of thousand dollars a year. That's entirely possible. My tiny little college made winter break 2 weeks longer and saved 200k a year.
- mlthoughts2018 8y agoThings like this highlight to me how insanely underpaid system engineers, hardware engineers and software engineers are on a net present value basis. You get paid based on some short future time window perception of the value your labor is adding. When really random people were coming to work some random Tuesday adding a few lines of code, documenting something so that someone else a few years later could add robustness or change a capability a few years later, etc., and it adds up to something that gets the job done for 30 years. It’s a marvel. I’ve worked on various projects that resembled this in some ways, primarly a defense research system for simulating aircraft properties and susceptibility to threats, built in the 80s and 90s in C, and still being constantly used for top level intelligence briefings in the 2000s. To say that the engineers who made the foundational system to have a prayer of living for 20+ years were underpaid relative to the value they created is just a ludicrous understatement.
- snr 8y agoWouldn't Windows 10 IoT on a raspberry pi hooked up to the internet work as an efficient replacement instead of the $2M? AFAIK, Windows claims to handle all the security things for you so a student developer making this project doesn't have to.
- dbg31415 8y ago> The original system was programmed by a high school student in the ’80s, and he’s the only one who knows how to fix software glitches. Luckily, he still lives in the area... > It’ll cost about $1.5 to 2 million to replace the Amiga... Hope this "kid" is getting paid for his work.
- scrame 8y ago"1200-bit modem". Good job, geek.com, I'm sure the rest of your breathless reporting is just as accurate.
- JdeBP 8y agoThat is a direct quotation of the person cited, note.
- sys_64738 8y agoCouldn't they replace it with a laptop running UAE?