17 ms·

China introduces ‘social’ punishments for scientific misconduct

71 points by sndean 8y ago

itry2develop 8y ago
So the same as if a scientist disagrees with global warming theory here, got it.
cenal 8y ago
Will this weaken the scientific community in China? Will this cause researchers to become adverse to speaking out for fear of retaliatory attacks on themselves? Seems like a major step in the wrong direction for Chinese society.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  I thought that's what people wanted? Everyone said that the scientist who cloned a baby should be punished.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    The government handing out the punishments is itself untrustworthy, which is why every additional power they give themselves is a step in the wrong direction. >dozens of government agencies will have the power to hand out penalties to those caught committing major scientific misconduct The key insight here is that you are not being punished as a result of a long, careful process administered by judges and a jury of your peers (which has some problems but at least is designed to be careful and not political), but instead will be at the mercy of a few government agencies which must by their very construction be political. In the US, there is a similar problem in a much smaller dose, where the government is likewise attempting to assign itself more power without introducing controls to let the citizens be the ones who ultimately decide what happens. One example would be the "secret courts" in the NSA problem. Although the US government is presently much nicer to its citizens than the Chinese government, the only reason this is true is because US citizens have more leverage on the US government than Chinese citizens do on theirs. This can change, and unsurprisingly the officials are trying to gain more authority.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    It's not what anyone who wants that scientist to be punished automatically wants, no more than someone who wants a glass of water wants a tsunami. Besides, the Chinese authorities already said what he did violates Chinese law, so what would introducing new laws achieve here, unless they're applied retroactively? The last thing I heard was that he went missing, any updates on that?
- chillacy 8y ago
  > Chinese leaders have been increasingly focused on scientific misconduct, following ongoing reports of researchers there using fraudulent data, falsifying CVs and faking peer reviews It sounds like a step in the right direction. It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". No need to send cheaters to jail, but don't let them off the hook either. Assuming the system won't be abused for political (I'm sure it will), the detection is accurate (I'm sure it'll be hard), the social punishment is reasonable (we'll see), it sounds reasonable in theory.
  - snaky 8y ago
    So it might be a wrong step in right direction - as the majority of regulations usually are.
  - tuxxy 8y ago
    > It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". The mental gymnastics people present for support on these policies is astounding to me.
    - monocasa 8y ago
      In the states, if you're known for scientific misconduct, will you get a job at a a state school?
      - jrumbut 8y ago
        Probably not but you can still buy train tickets, get a mortgage, and live in Manhattan if you make some other career work out for you. That's what's disturbing here, the link to this other system that is, in itself, nightmarish.
        elliekelly 8y ago
        Right, their system seems to presuppose that if a person does something wrong once they should carry the consequences of that "misconduct" indefinitely. That's awfully pessimistic and depressing to me. Everyone has done something "wrong" at one point or another. Most people learn and grow from those mistakes. What will a society look like where people aren't free to learn from their mistakes but are instead perpetually held back by them?
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  > Will this weaken the scientific community in China? It most probraly will because as soon as the system starts working the definition of "misconduct" will probably include ideologically-incorrect research results and subjects, failures to comply to the Chinese job etiquette etc. And the Chinese Government reaction on Dr. He's breakthrough is an example of how policy can stand against science.
- jVinc 8y ago
  The scientific community is not strengthened in any way by those who falsify data and credentials. Quite the contrary, sometimes other scientists dedicate years to worthless pursuits because they are working in a "promising" direction set forth by others who fabricate impressive results in order to progress their carrier.
- karmasimida 8y ago
  I would say it depends. If you have to stereotype Chinese dominated community, I think one pattern might emerge, the disregard towards rules particularly if that leads to personal advantages. In other words, rules speak louder when employed for punishment rather than respected as means to obtain the greater good. There is possibility such punishments could be abused, but as many things happened in China, the execution of such is contextual and selective, so only time will tell.
RockmanX 8y ago
thats horrible! It makes me don't want to go back to China for having a faculty job.
- tlb 8y ago
  What sort of research do you want to do that you're afraid might result in punishment? Or put another way, what do you think a government agency might see as misconduct that you see as legitimate?
  - analog31 8y ago
    I would be concerned about ideologically incorrect research, innocent mistakes, non-research-related activism, working for a disfavored person, being part of a disfavored ethnic group, etc.
  - jtd514 8y ago
    You are saying that as if the government is immune to corruption and abuse of power.
    - dgzl 8y ago
      This is my thought Everytime someone defends increasing government power and authority. They always assume the government is going to act in good faith and never use the power in a harmful way. Almost as if they've never read a history book.
  - paganel 8y ago
    This is similar to how privacy-conscious people are told that “if you don’t have anything to hide then why are you so concerned about actually hiding things?”.
  - marcosdumay 8y ago
    > what do you think a government agency might see as misconduct that you see as legitimate? I'm not the GP, but that one is easy: - Discovering that some drug is ineffective (or worse) when the manufacturer has made party contributions; - Discovering that some public policy does not benefit the population while it benefits some politician; - Any research on a propaganda line with results that are not aligned with the official truths.
fourier_mode 8y ago
I have some doubts regarding this -- 1.) What if the topic on which someone wants to publish is still developing, and the researches in the meantime produces wrong results which can be a genuine case, then does the individual get penalized? 2.) Also if point 1 is allowed then one might always claim this as a backdoor escape for all wrong publications. 3.) What role does a reviewer have if there is a false publication, will the reviewer be also punished? I am not suggesting this is a bad move, it is just a different view point which might actually work out for good, but unless all points have been addressed correctly, claiming that something might be a punishable offence is definitely a step in the wrong direction.
- tsumnia 8y ago
  I'd add the follow-up question of "how could this system being maliciously gamed?"
rhegart 8y ago
I agree with this. They are punishing those who are using fake CVs, falsifying data, fake resumes. We don’t have much of a problem here with that and it’s easy to do solid background checks and ethics are just higher. In that environment this may be a great solution. They aren’t arresting or jailing anyone and this in my opinion is an ample threat to prevent would be borderline cheaters to think twice. There is far more temptation to cheat when money, job, promotion is on the line and you have no social welfare to fall back on. False scientific data worsens the country’s image and threatens lives etc. We have our own deep deep problems with research but that’s another discussion.
- fouric 8y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entire "social credit" system completely opaque? As far as I know, there's no due process, trial, or opportunity for those being labeled with an offense (for to be "accused" implies that there is some transparency involved) to defend themselves. That, coupled with the Chinese government's abuse of the system to suppress their citizens (the system already penalizes you for merely suggesting that the government is imperfect) makes me think that it'll likely be used to e.g. punish those publishing papers that don't agree with the state narrative.
  - rhegart 8y ago
    Oh you’re absolutely right about the punishing those who don’t agree with the state. But as of now they already do punish by sending them into a black cell disappearing forever. Xi has done this to anyone including multibillionaires and CCP highest ranking billionaires. When he was in charge of rooting out corruption, he went after enemies to shore up political support. A group of highly influential CCP elites wrote a letter disagreeing with the road to tyranny and I believe every one of them disappeared. I’m sure the system has abuses, I think it is opaque but not sure but I imagine beaurocrats will abuse it with petty grudges and bribes. Just in this case, I’m glad China is cracking down on scientific fraud and I prefer these measures to jail. I don’t think going against the state’s narrative for hard sciences is possible. For policy, sociology, history, I’m sure there is already an iron hand there with no room to wiggle.
Jyaif 8y ago
"people who lose trust in one area of society should face restrictions in other areas." Sounds very reasonable to me.
joedevon 8y ago
There should be severe punishment for scientific misconduct. Especially fraud. The lynchpin is who gets to decide? That said, I suggest another punishment. Branding cheaters with a scarlet letter. WCGW?
randall 8y ago
This is so complex. I think it's too complex to completely understand for me (dude in california). Originally I thought it was kind of dystopian, but in itself (ie academics doing "bad things") it fits into the rest of the social fabric of the community. The overall social credit system is super strange to me, which I think is worth talking about, but this part seems like an extension of that status quo. I think people need more economic mobility, and the ability to live where they want when policies like this come up. Bringing the smartest / most entrepreneurial Chinese away from China because of bad policy is one way of driving economic incentives... but I'm not sure how to deal with this in itself. Makes me want to study sociology more though.
- pmarreck 8y ago
  > The overall social credit system is super strange to me Spotted the person who hasn’t seen the relevant (and really awesome) Black Mirror episode.
dantheman 8y ago
This is insane; this creates a system that can easily blackball an individual with no recourse. Do you think the person denying a bank loan, hiring, approving jobs, etc. is going to check and verify that what the person did is wrong? Or can this at any moment be used against anyone. If the government wants to punish someone it should be through the courts and through a fine or some sort of government restriction, not enforced by the public sector.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  My gut reaction is to agree with you. After a little thought, I'm not so sure. Could such a system prevent scientists and doctors claiming, on behalf of their employer, that there's no connection between smoking and health, or that there's no anthropogenic climate change, or that there's no asbestos in the baby powder? Then there's the countless pseudo scientific cures and remedies. Could it do better than the system we have? Clearly, it could be abused, but so can the system we have and it is being, heavily. Which produces the more honest result?
  - dgzl 8y ago
    What if the government decides to force certain "facts" about whatever, and punishes truly honest scientists for getting too close to the truth?
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      What if the sugar industry lobby successfully moves blame from sugar to fat for 40 years? Which had the effect of punishing truly honest scientists who published the first links between sugar and obesity. Who might be more honest - a government funded body, or a commercial entity making profit off one particular answer?
      - dgzl 8y ago
        In your case, the scientists were likely punished by wasted time, disqualifying otherwise correct science work, maybe even lost their jobs. How do you think they'd be punished in China under this system? Maybe they can't ride a train anymore, or forced into dingy second rate establishments, or refused certain services. I wonder how that will work when facial recognition hits big. And to answer your question, trusting the government is always foolish.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jhedwards 8y ago
A little shameless self-promotion here, but if anyone is interested I just finished translating part of an article from Han dyansty China about law and punishment: https://dragoncarvings.wordpress.com/2018/12/08/law-and-punishment-in-the-book-of-han/ https://dragoncarvings.wordpress.com/2018/12/08/law-and-puni...
- ConfusedDog 8y ago
  I appreciate you doing this. Much wisdoms in the Book of Han as usual. Though I agree with a lot of points in there, the problem is power corrupt the wisest. Chinese has been through those issues so. many. times... Still making the same mistakes. There WILL be abuses of power, inequalities and social disruptions because of this. Cycle of life in deed.
dzink 8y ago
What a great incentive for top Chinese scientists to immigrate elsewhere.
woodandsteel 8y ago
My understanding is that the Chinese government is implementing this system because there has been a great breakdown in social norms of honesty and rule-following. For thousands of years the Chinese operated under an elaborate set of social norms from Confucianism. But then these were thrown away under Communism, and in particular during the Cultural Revolution period there was paranoid chaos, and a great loss of social trust. And then a further radical change with the capitalist industrial revolution under Deng Jiaoping. The consequence is that people don't trust anyone outside their immediate circles, and often feel no obligation to act in a non-harmful way toward them. The Government is trying to restore a sense of moral obligation to the members of the population. It will be interesting to see how well it goes.
- contingencies 8y ago
  Eloquently stated. Although the observation requires a grasping of Chinese history, so it will be dismissed by many, I believe this is on the mark, not withstanding standard disclaimers around any appeal to an historical utopia.
abc-xyz 8y ago
Surprised no one seems to have addressed the real purpose of the "social" punishment for "scientific misconduct", which is to punish those who dare to mention or research topics that the government doesn't like, such as the tiananmen massacre, Huawei spyware, etc.

71 points by sndean 8y ago

So the same as if a scientist disagrees with global warming theory here, got it.

Will this weaken the scientific community in China? Will this cause researchers to become adverse to speaking out for fear of retaliatory attacks on themselves? Seems like a major step in the wrong direction for Chinese society.

TomMarius 8y ago
I thought that's what people wanted? Everyone said that the scientist who cloned a baby should be punished.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  The government handing out the punishments is itself untrustworthy, which is why every additional power they give themselves is a step in the wrong direction. >dozens of government agencies will have the power to hand out penalties to those caught committing major scientific misconduct The key insight here is that you are not being punished as a result of a long, careful process administered by judges and a jury of your peers (which has some problems but at least is designed to be careful and not political), but instead will be at the mercy of a few government agencies which must by their very construction be political. In the US, there is a similar problem in a much smaller dose, where the government is likewise attempting to assign itself more power without introducing controls to let the citizens be the ones who ultimately decide what happens. One example would be the "secret courts" in the NSA problem. Although the US government is presently much nicer to its citizens than the Chinese government, the only reason this is true is because US citizens have more leverage on the US government than Chinese citizens do on theirs. This can change, and unsurprisingly the officials are trying to gain more authority.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  It's not what anyone who wants that scientist to be punished automatically wants, no more than someone who wants a glass of water wants a tsunami. Besides, the Chinese authorities already said what he did violates Chinese law, so what would introducing new laws achieve here, unless they're applied retroactively? The last thing I heard was that he went missing, any updates on that?
chillacy 8y ago
> Chinese leaders have been increasingly focused on scientific misconduct, following ongoing reports of researchers there using fraudulent data, falsifying CVs and faking peer reviews It sounds like a step in the right direction. It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". No need to send cheaters to jail, but don't let them off the hook either. Assuming the system won't be abused for political (I'm sure it will), the detection is accurate (I'm sure it'll be hard), the social punishment is reasonable (we'll see), it sounds reasonable in theory.
- snaky 8y ago
  So it might be a wrong step in right direction - as the majority of regulations usually are.
- tuxxy 8y ago
  > It feels less gross if you think of "social punishment" as a lighter version of "legal punishment". The mental gymnastics people present for support on these policies is astounding to me.
  - monocasa 8y ago
    In the states, if you're known for scientific misconduct, will you get a job at a a state school?
    - jrumbut 8y ago
      Probably not but you can still buy train tickets, get a mortgage, and live in Manhattan if you make some other career work out for you. That's what's disturbing here, the link to this other system that is, in itself, nightmarish.
      - elliekelly 8y ago
        Right, their system seems to presuppose that if a person does something wrong once they should carry the consequences of that "misconduct" indefinitely. That's awfully pessimistic and depressing to me. Everyone has done something "wrong" at one point or another. Most people learn and grow from those mistakes. What will a society look like where people aren't free to learn from their mistakes but are instead perpetually held back by them?
qwerty456127 8y ago
> Will this weaken the scientific community in China? It most probraly will because as soon as the system starts working the definition of "misconduct" will probably include ideologically-incorrect research results and subjects, failures to comply to the Chinese job etiquette etc. And the Chinese Government reaction on Dr. He's breakthrough is an example of how policy can stand against science.
jVinc 8y ago
The scientific community is not strengthened in any way by those who falsify data and credentials. Quite the contrary, sometimes other scientists dedicate years to worthless pursuits because they are working in a "promising" direction set forth by others who fabricate impressive results in order to progress their carrier.
karmasimida 8y ago
I would say it depends. If you have to stereotype Chinese dominated community, I think one pattern might emerge, the disregard towards rules particularly if that leads to personal advantages. In other words, rules speak louder when employed for punishment rather than respected as means to obtain the greater good. There is possibility such punishments could be abused, but as many things happened in China, the execution of such is contextual and selective, so only time will tell.

RockmanX 8y ago

thats horrible! It makes me don't want to go back to China for having a faculty job.

tlb 8y ago
What sort of research do you want to do that you're afraid might result in punishment? Or put another way, what do you think a government agency might see as misconduct that you see as legitimate?
- analog31 8y ago
  I would be concerned about ideologically incorrect research, innocent mistakes, non-research-related activism, working for a disfavored person, being part of a disfavored ethnic group, etc.
- jtd514 8y ago
  You are saying that as if the government is immune to corruption and abuse of power.
  - dgzl 8y ago
    This is my thought Everytime someone defends increasing government power and authority. They always assume the government is going to act in good faith and never use the power in a harmful way. Almost as if they've never read a history book.
- paganel 8y ago
  This is similar to how privacy-conscious people are told that “if you don’t have anything to hide then why are you so concerned about actually hiding things?”.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  > what do you think a government agency might see as misconduct that you see as legitimate? I'm not the GP, but that one is easy: - Discovering that some drug is ineffective (or worse) when the manufacturer has made party contributions; - Discovering that some public policy does not benefit the population while it benefits some politician; - Any research on a propaganda line with results that are not aligned with the official truths.

fourier_mode 8y ago

I have some doubts regarding this -- 1.) What if the topic on which someone wants to publish is still developing, and the researches in the meantime produces wrong results which can be a genuine case, then does the individual get penalized? 2.) Also if point 1 is allowed then one might always claim this as a backdoor escape for all wrong publications. 3.) What role does a reviewer have if there is a false publication, will the reviewer be also punished? I am not suggesting this is a bad move, it is just a different view point which might actually work out for good, but unless all points have been addressed correctly, claiming that something might be a punishable offence is definitely a step in the wrong direction.

tsumnia 8y ago
I'd add the follow-up question of "how could this system being maliciously gamed?"

rhegart 8y ago

I agree with this. They are punishing those who are using fake CVs, falsifying data, fake resumes. We don’t have much of a problem here with that and it’s easy to do solid background checks and ethics are just higher. In that environment this may be a great solution. They aren’t arresting or jailing anyone and this in my opinion is an ample threat to prevent would be borderline cheaters to think twice. There is far more temptation to cheat when money, job, promotion is on the line and you have no social welfare to fall back on. False scientific data worsens the country’s image and threatens lives etc. We have our own deep deep problems with research but that’s another discussion.

fouric 8y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entire "social credit" system completely opaque? As far as I know, there's no due process, trial, or opportunity for those being labeled with an offense (for to be "accused" implies that there is some transparency involved) to defend themselves. That, coupled with the Chinese government's abuse of the system to suppress their citizens (the system already penalizes you for merely suggesting that the government is imperfect) makes me think that it'll likely be used to e.g. punish those publishing papers that don't agree with the state narrative.
- rhegart 8y ago
  Oh you’re absolutely right about the punishing those who don’t agree with the state. But as of now they already do punish by sending them into a black cell disappearing forever. Xi has done this to anyone including multibillionaires and CCP highest ranking billionaires. When he was in charge of rooting out corruption, he went after enemies to shore up political support. A group of highly influential CCP elites wrote a letter disagreeing with the road to tyranny and I believe every one of them disappeared. I’m sure the system has abuses, I think it is opaque but not sure but I imagine beaurocrats will abuse it with petty grudges and bribes. Just in this case, I’m glad China is cracking down on scientific fraud and I prefer these measures to jail. I don’t think going against the state’s narrative for hard sciences is possible. For policy, sociology, history, I’m sure there is already an iron hand there with no room to wiggle.

Jyaif 8y ago

"people who lose trust in one area of society should face restrictions in other areas." Sounds very reasonable to me.

joedevon 8y ago

There should be severe punishment for scientific misconduct. Especially fraud. The lynchpin is who gets to decide? That said, I suggest another punishment. Branding cheaters with a scarlet letter. WCGW?

randall 8y ago

This is so complex. I think it's too complex to completely understand for me (dude in california). Originally I thought it was kind of dystopian, but in itself (ie academics doing "bad things") it fits into the rest of the social fabric of the community. The overall social credit system is super strange to me, which I think is worth talking about, but this part seems like an extension of that status quo. I think people need more economic mobility, and the ability to live where they want when policies like this come up. Bringing the smartest / most entrepreneurial Chinese away from China because of bad policy is one way of driving economic incentives... but I'm not sure how to deal with this in itself. Makes me want to study sociology more though.

pmarreck 8y ago
> The overall social credit system is super strange to me Spotted the person who hasn’t seen the relevant (and really awesome) Black Mirror episode.

dantheman 8y ago

This is insane; this creates a system that can easily blackball an individual with no recourse. Do you think the person denying a bank loan, hiring, approving jobs, etc. is going to check and verify that what the person did is wrong? Or can this at any moment be used against anyone. If the government wants to punish someone it should be through the courts and through a fine or some sort of government restriction, not enforced by the public sector.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
My gut reaction is to agree with you. After a little thought, I'm not so sure. Could such a system prevent scientists and doctors claiming, on behalf of their employer, that there's no connection between smoking and health, or that there's no anthropogenic climate change, or that there's no asbestos in the baby powder? Then there's the countless pseudo scientific cures and remedies. Could it do better than the system we have? Clearly, it could be abused, but so can the system we have and it is being, heavily. Which produces the more honest result?
- dgzl 8y ago
  What if the government decides to force certain "facts" about whatever, and punishes truly honest scientists for getting too close to the truth?
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    What if the sugar industry lobby successfully moves blame from sugar to fat for 40 years? Which had the effect of punishing truly honest scientists who published the first links between sugar and obesity. Who might be more honest - a government funded body, or a commercial entity making profit off one particular answer?
    - dgzl 8y ago
      In your case, the scientists were likely punished by wasted time, disqualifying otherwise correct science work, maybe even lost their jobs. How do you think they'd be punished in China under this system? Maybe they can't ride a train anymore, or forced into dingy second rate establishments, or refused certain services. I wonder how that will work when facial recognition hits big. And to answer your question, trusting the government is always foolish.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jhedwards 8y ago

A little shameless self-promotion here, but if anyone is interested I just finished translating part of an article from Han dyansty China about law and punishment: https://dragoncarvings.wordpress.com/2018/12/08/law-and-punishment-in-the-book-of-han/ https://dragoncarvings.wordpress.com/2018/12/08/law-and-puni...

ConfusedDog 8y ago
I appreciate you doing this. Much wisdoms in the Book of Han as usual. Though I agree with a lot of points in there, the problem is power corrupt the wisest. Chinese has been through those issues so. many. times... Still making the same mistakes. There WILL be abuses of power, inequalities and social disruptions because of this. Cycle of life in deed.

dzink 8y ago

What a great incentive for top Chinese scientists to immigrate elsewhere.

woodandsteel 8y ago

My understanding is that the Chinese government is implementing this system because there has been a great breakdown in social norms of honesty and rule-following. For thousands of years the Chinese operated under an elaborate set of social norms from Confucianism. But then these were thrown away under Communism, and in particular during the Cultural Revolution period there was paranoid chaos, and a great loss of social trust. And then a further radical change with the capitalist industrial revolution under Deng Jiaoping. The consequence is that people don't trust anyone outside their immediate circles, and often feel no obligation to act in a non-harmful way toward them. The Government is trying to restore a sense of moral obligation to the members of the population. It will be interesting to see how well it goes.

contingencies 8y ago
Eloquently stated. Although the observation requires a grasping of Chinese history, so it will be dismissed by many, I believe this is on the mark, not withstanding standard disclaimers around any appeal to an historical utopia.

abc-xyz 8y ago

Surprised no one seems to have addressed the real purpose of the "social" punishment for "scientific misconduct", which is to punish those who dare to mention or research topics that the government doesn't like, such as the tiananmen massacre, Huawei spyware, etc.