9 ms·

Switzerland to test ‘hyperloop’ train technologies

118 points by baazaar 8y ago

treve 8y ago
If the drawing has the correct scale, it looks like you will have to lie down going through the tube. Futurama-esk.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  I think that's just a depiction of the three kilometer test track.
- microtherion 8y ago
  Since both accelerating to 900kmh on such a short track and decelerating will involve multi-g forces, maybe this will be the most comfortable travel position.
  - ip26 8y ago
    I think it's the opposite really, you black out at much lower g forces when accelerating head first compared to face front. Not proof of anything but notice rocket crew always face front.
    - microtherion 8y ago
      Interesting! But presumably in this setup, one would experience both significant acceleration AND deceleration. Is there any static orientation that would minimize problems for both?
      - chki 8y ago
        Well, sideways or rather upright (possibly in a seating position) is probably better but seems not very aerodynamic. I think those are the three possible orientations. But I mean are we seriously considering a transportation system where part of the journey is a black out/red out? The time gain by accelerating with 5g instead of 1g can't be that big (Maybe a few minutes at most?). Edit: I'm not sure if there's an error in my calculations but with 1g acceleration it should take about 25s to get to 900km/h? That seems ok.
        microtherion 8y ago
        I agree with your calculations, but with an 1g acceleration for 25s, the train will travel a bit more than 3km, and getting to the end of the track (which is 3km according to the article) at close to 900km/h is unlikely to lead to a happy outcome. If my math is right, in order to accelerate to 900km/h and decelerate to a stop again, all on a 3km track, requires acceleration/deceleration of a bit more than 2g.
heinrichf 8y ago
Back in the 70s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro
- ilove_banh_mi 8y ago
  [Corrected, with thanks! I hadn't read the German-language wikipedia page, and I don't recall hearing about the roots of the idea when it was in the news by 1993.] A research and development project was funded and launched in the 90s, while the initial concept is credited to Swiss engineer Rodolphe Nieth in 1974.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- cpolymeris 8y ago
  Or in the 90s https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KK_BOlHCaeI/V1G9-ezN_5I/AAAAAAAAA9Q/-7J5laZNo9IHrFt8Rr9M6rPYwvr7tQi5ACLcB/s1600/DSCN0539.jpg https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KK_BOlHCaeI/V1G9-ezN_5I/AAAAAAAAA... [HR Giger]
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
ilove_banh_mi 8y ago
Swissmetro [1] was a precursor concept publicized in 1993 [2], abandoned by 2009. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255792073_Swissmetro_-_Project_Development_Status https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255792073_Swissmetr... [2] PDF link to English-language report at the bottom of the page: http://www.bfe.admin.ch/dokumentation/energieforschung/index.html?lang=en&publication=2502 http://www.bfe.admin.ch/dokumentation/energieforschung/index...
Animats 8y ago
The Dubai-Abu Dhabi hyperloop had a lot more potential.[1] Flat undeveloped desert along most of the route, the best case for a tube train. But the UAE government is backing off on support. Nobody really wants to build Musk's hovercraft-like system. They're all maglev in vacuum systems. Meanwhile, Japan's JR continues to tunnel for the Tokyo-Nagoya maglev. They have 42km of working track and rolling stock. It's expensive, but it's very real. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbFq_pSijE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbFq_pSijE
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  Swiss citizens travel more kilometers by rail per capita than any other country in the world. If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    > If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look. Not really. Most of Switzerland's transit is through rail, particularly standard gouge. Introducing a completely new, incompatible form of transit in a highly integrated network is a bad idea. You have to build entirely new infrastructure, stations, etc. All of them incompatible with the existing infrastructure. It is the same reasons why the Germans didn't chose Transrapid for high-speed rail. New types of transportation only ever make sense in a place with no or little existing transit infrastructure.
    - PunchTornado 8y ago
      don't agree, because it's harder to get the population to use it.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      A culture of public investment and use of transit is important. America's car-centric culture, for example, has been a major impediment to public transit projects here. The Swiss network fairly seamlessly integrates multiple forms of transit into one network - both public and private rail, buses, boats, light rail, trams, etc. Bus stops are timed so the trains they connect to are there at the right time for a seamless switch.
icefo 8y ago
Damn it feels super weird to hear something about my childhood village on HN. There is also a recently closed refinery there. The funny thing is that they never budgeted the decommissioning cost when it was built. So there is no money to do it and it's probably going to stay like that forever. I hope the don't do the same for this project.
- StreakyCobra 8y ago
  You know what is even more weird? Reading a comment on HN of another person saying he also grew up there ;-)
__m 8y ago
https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk
- ttul 8y ago
  That was a good watch!
salimmadjd 8y ago
Hyperloop only works most comfortably in very flat routes. It's something I never realized until I visited Hyperloop's offices in LA when they first started. I got to make some early promo photos for them [0] and signed a 10-year NDA in the process. However, what I learned (which is public knowledge) that at high speeds even smallest elevation drops would make the passengers feel the free-fall sensation of being on a rollercoaster. Basically at high speeds the elevation change of the vertical vector components of anything more than several degrees can approach the free fall dropping speeds. I have also taken numerous train rides in Switzerland and driven through large parts of the country and I don't believe the technology can be used there as well as it could have been deployed in other routes in the world that is naturally more flat. So I'm wondering if this mostly an R&D project designed to export an entire tunnel/hyperloop making solution. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/BMiyAIdhCJn/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BMiyAIdhCJn/ (photo is about 80 frames stacked. Because we only had one welder at the time and I had to reuse him and also to intricately light every parts of this lot)
- tdeck 8y ago
  I wonder if people would just get used to that sensation if it meant cutting their commute in half.
  - mcguire 8y ago
    Or they wouldn't get those jobs.
- jcranmer 8y ago
  The thing about ultra-high-speed is this: your benefits (travel time) grow linearly with speed, but your problems (energy, capacity, curve radii, etc.) grow quadratically. Actually, it's worse than it sounds. Travel time has a big impact on demand--but only within a small-ish window, about 2-4 hours. Outside of that window, demand does not respond that much to changes in travel time. That means that higher speeds are ultimately about trying to bring more destinations within the acceptable travel time window, but you also have to give up destinations within that window because the stop time penalties are too high. Switzerland has the issue that it's just too small. With conventional 300-350km/h max-speed HSR, going from the eastern to the western edge of the country could be done in about 2 hours (recall that average speed is going to be less than max speed, particularly when stops are included), which is around the point where going faster means getting no practical benefit for people. It could serve international routes, but then Switzerland is bearing the costs without reaping the benefits, which the citizenry tends not to favor very highly.
mcguire 8y ago
Why is the car (https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/space-age-technology_swiss-team-comes-third-in-hyperloop-competition/44273992 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/space-age-technology_swiss-team...) streamlined?
malajubee 8y ago
Virgin hyperloop is also planning to do testing/R&D in Europe, more specificially in the Malaga province in Spain. http://www.surinenglish.com/local/201808/10/virgin-chooses-inland-malaga-20180810104636-v.html http://www.surinenglish.com/local/201808/10/virgin-chooses-i...

118 points by baazaar 8y ago

treve 8y ago

If the drawing has the correct scale, it looks like you will have to lie down going through the tube. Futurama-esk.

ceejayoz 8y ago
I think that's just a depiction of the three kilometer test track.
microtherion 8y ago
Since both accelerating to 900kmh on such a short track and decelerating will involve multi-g forces, maybe this will be the most comfortable travel position.
- ip26 8y ago
  I think it's the opposite really, you black out at much lower g forces when accelerating head first compared to face front. Not proof of anything but notice rocket crew always face front.
  - microtherion 8y ago
    Interesting! But presumably in this setup, one would experience both significant acceleration AND deceleration. Is there any static orientation that would minimize problems for both?
    - chki 8y ago
      Well, sideways or rather upright (possibly in a seating position) is probably better but seems not very aerodynamic. I think those are the three possible orientations. But I mean are we seriously considering a transportation system where part of the journey is a black out/red out? The time gain by accelerating with 5g instead of 1g can't be that big (Maybe a few minutes at most?). Edit: I'm not sure if there's an error in my calculations but with 1g acceleration it should take about 25s to get to 900km/h? That seems ok.
      - microtherion 8y ago
        I agree with your calculations, but with an 1g acceleration for 25s, the train will travel a bit more than 3km, and getting to the end of the track (which is 3km according to the article) at close to 900km/h is unlikely to lead to a happy outcome. If my math is right, in order to accelerate to 900km/h and decelerate to a stop again, all on a 3km track, requires acceleration/deceleration of a bit more than 2g.

heinrichf 8y ago

Back in the 70s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissmetro

ilove_banh_mi 8y ago
[Corrected, with thanks! I hadn't read the German-language wikipedia page, and I don't recall hearing about the roots of the idea when it was in the news by 1993.] A research and development project was funded and launched in the 90s, while the initial concept is credited to Swiss engineer Rodolphe Nieth in 1974.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
cpolymeris 8y ago
Or in the 90s https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KK_BOlHCaeI/V1G9-ezN_5I/AAAAAAAAA9Q/-7J5laZNo9IHrFt8Rr9M6rPYwvr7tQi5ACLcB/s1600/DSCN0539.jpg https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KK_BOlHCaeI/V1G9-ezN_5I/AAAAAAAAA... [HR Giger]

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

ilove_banh_mi 8y ago

Swissmetro [1] was a precursor concept publicized in 1993 [2], abandoned by 2009. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255792073_Swissmetro_-_Project_Development_Status https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255792073_Swissmetr... [2] PDF link to English-language report at the bottom of the page: http://www.bfe.admin.ch/dokumentation/energieforschung/index.html?lang=en&publication=2502 http://www.bfe.admin.ch/dokumentation/energieforschung/index...

Animats 8y ago

The Dubai-Abu Dhabi hyperloop had a lot more potential.[1] Flat undeveloped desert along most of the route, the best case for a tube train. But the UAE government is backing off on support. Nobody really wants to build Musk's hovercraft-like system. They're all maglev in vacuum systems. Meanwhile, Japan's JR continues to tunnel for the Tokyo-Nagoya maglev. They have 42km of working track and rolling stock. It's expensive, but it's very real. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbFq_pSijE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbFq_pSijE

ceejayoz 8y ago
Swiss citizens travel more kilometers by rail per capita than any other country in the world. If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  > If you're going to implement a new form of public transit, they're a pretty good place to look. Not really. Most of Switzerland's transit is through rail, particularly standard gouge. Introducing a completely new, incompatible form of transit in a highly integrated network is a bad idea. You have to build entirely new infrastructure, stations, etc. All of them incompatible with the existing infrastructure. It is the same reasons why the Germans didn't chose Transrapid for high-speed rail. New types of transportation only ever make sense in a place with no or little existing transit infrastructure.
  - PunchTornado 8y ago
    don't agree, because it's harder to get the population to use it.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    A culture of public investment and use of transit is important. America's car-centric culture, for example, has been a major impediment to public transit projects here. The Swiss network fairly seamlessly integrates multiple forms of transit into one network - both public and private rail, buses, boats, light rail, trams, etc. Bus stops are timed so the trains they connect to are there at the right time for a seamless switch.

icefo 8y ago

Damn it feels super weird to hear something about my childhood village on HN. There is also a recently closed refinery there. The funny thing is that they never budgeted the decommissioning cost when it was built. So there is no money to do it and it's probably going to stay like that forever. I hope the don't do the same for this project.

StreakyCobra 8y ago
You know what is even more weird? Reading a comment on HN of another person saying he also grew up there ;-)

__m 8y ago

https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk

ttul 8y ago
That was a good watch!

salimmadjd 8y ago

Hyperloop only works most comfortably in very flat routes. It's something I never realized until I visited Hyperloop's offices in LA when they first started. I got to make some early promo photos for them [0] and signed a 10-year NDA in the process. However, what I learned (which is public knowledge) that at high speeds even smallest elevation drops would make the passengers feel the free-fall sensation of being on a rollercoaster. Basically at high speeds the elevation change of the vertical vector components of anything more than several degrees can approach the free fall dropping speeds. I have also taken numerous train rides in Switzerland and driven through large parts of the country and I don't believe the technology can be used there as well as it could have been deployed in other routes in the world that is naturally more flat. So I'm wondering if this mostly an R&D project designed to export an entire tunnel/hyperloop making solution. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/BMiyAIdhCJn/ https://www.instagram.com/p/BMiyAIdhCJn/ (photo is about 80 frames stacked. Because we only had one welder at the time and I had to reuse him and also to intricately light every parts of this lot)

tdeck 8y ago
I wonder if people would just get used to that sensation if it meant cutting their commute in half.
- mcguire 8y ago
  Or they wouldn't get those jobs.
jcranmer 8y ago
The thing about ultra-high-speed is this: your benefits (travel time) grow linearly with speed, but your problems (energy, capacity, curve radii, etc.) grow quadratically. Actually, it's worse than it sounds. Travel time has a big impact on demand--but only within a small-ish window, about 2-4 hours. Outside of that window, demand does not respond that much to changes in travel time. That means that higher speeds are ultimately about trying to bring more destinations within the acceptable travel time window, but you also have to give up destinations within that window because the stop time penalties are too high. Switzerland has the issue that it's just too small. With conventional 300-350km/h max-speed HSR, going from the eastern to the western edge of the country could be done in about 2 hours (recall that average speed is going to be less than max speed, particularly when stops are included), which is around the point where going faster means getting no practical benefit for people. It could serve international routes, but then Switzerland is bearing the costs without reaping the benefits, which the citizenry tends not to favor very highly.

mcguire 8y ago

Why is the car (https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/space-age-technology_swiss-team-comes-third-in-hyperloop-competition/44273992 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/space-age-technology_swiss-team...) streamlined?

malajubee 8y ago

Virgin hyperloop is also planning to do testing/R&D in Europe, more specificially in the Malaga province in Spain. http://www.surinenglish.com/local/201808/10/virgin-chooses-inland-malaga-20180810104636-v.html http://www.surinenglish.com/local/201808/10/virgin-chooses-i...