10 ms·

Chinese hi-tech researchers ‘told not to travel to US unless it’s essential’

153 points by smaili 8y ago

ConfusedDog 8y ago
It's like a cold war on technology advancement here... wait. that's just the cold war, except this time more politics, fewer submarines.
- mc32 8y ago
  Kind of opposite of the Cold War, where despite (geo)political differences, we tried to cooperate in the sciences, where possible/prudent...
  - vkou 8y ago
    And unlike the Cold War, both sides' economies are completely tied to trade with the other. Before anyone feels too complacent about that fact - trade doesn't have a great track record of preventing actual wars. WWI was considered unthinkable, because of how tightly the two sides were entangled in trade.
    - lettergram 8y ago
      It's also why several of the countries had issues feeding their populations during the war(s). I think it's fair to say, that what exasperated WWI was the secret (and not so secret), alliances everyone had made. Such that when Austria decided to invade Serbia, France had to declare war on the Ottoman Empire... (traditionally an enemy of Austria)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jhowell 8y ago
It's essential. From my reading of the news it seems the Chinese want access to US universities, tech and financial service companies for a variety of reasons. I'd imagine that access to these resources is impossible without coming to the US.
alottafunchata 8y ago
"researchers"
- bazeblackwood 8y ago
  "scare quotes"
pytyper2 8y ago
Because they are likely working for institutions that are committing IP theft, in this case it's better to keep them honest, they don't have a culture that respects the rules and customs of other cultures (common law, contract law).
- DennisP 8y ago
  Which is also what the U.S. did for its first century or so. A lot of us think U.S. IP law has seriously overextended itself these days. I'm not sure I entirely blame China for not going along with it.
  - fatjokes 8y ago
    You're not wrong. I wouldn't blame the US for wanting to defend against it. I just wouldn't bother with the "morality" card vs. a simple transactional justification.
  - polartx 8y ago
    Ah yes, because Samuel Slater smuggled cotton spinner trade secrets out of England in 1789, China is justified committing IP theft today. Sound logic
    - starbeast 8y ago
      The definition of theft of IP is entirely a product of local jurisdiction though, given we are talking about temporary monopolies on ephemera and not physical protection of personal claims on objects or spaces.
      - pnw_hazor 8y ago
        China defines IP theft the same as EU and USA (more or less.)
        starbeast 8y ago
        Clearly there are some differences of opinion, given the context.
EGreg 8y ago
USA’s main exports are IP and Dollars. They have engaged in petrodollar warfare and international treaties to protect the demand for their export and intimidate those (like Kim Dotcom) who threaten it in other countries. Just like Russia has done for natural gas, for instance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership-t-tip/t-tip-10 https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/tran...
- pavel_lishin 8y ago
  > There's only four things we [Americans] do better than anyone else: music, movies, microcode (software), and high speed pizza delivery Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash
thrillgore 8y ago
Smart thinking. Similarly, I would not travel to China if I am big into research or am C-level. In case they want to respond in kind.
stevenjohns 8y ago
I've taken similar advice from HN -- not to travel to the US unless it's essential -- and I've heeded that quite closely. It's unsurprising that people significantly more important than me are being advised the same in more formal situations.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  The US has had travel advisories for specific people against China in effect since Jan 2018: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/... I've worked for years at companies that had corporate policy to either wash or destroy phones/computers taken into China. That is to say, it's unsurprising that any 2 countries engaged in a trade war (hot or cold) would take these precautions against each other.
ggm 8y ago
The cold war experience of tit-for-tat has two lessons: Firstly, somebody has to make a move either at parity which is respected or below, and the "you blinked first" message has to be ignored. Secondly, there are always collateral damages. You can't afford to expel Russian diplomatic staff so you expel east Germans. You don't want to risk core staff so you send friendly nations into harm's way. Canada was thrown into harm's way to avoid a bigger problem. The question is: who is willing to de scale the tit-for-tat response first?
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  Can't fight a trade war like a cold war. I actually think Trump is doing it right. I mean, if you're going to fight a trade war, you have to do the kinds of things he's doing. Now the problem is... economic reality. If the other guy just has the bigger market long term, especially if they can grow their market without you, you're just at a disadvantage. I think we can get some short term wins, but in the long term, we would have to prosecute this trade war flawlessly to come out on top. That's just the reality of large markets looking to de-link themselves from global carbon energy resources. Long term, if we're all intent on ending the age of oil and coal, there's just nothing to keep everyone cooperating with each other.
  - ggm 8y ago
    This trade war is not being prosecuted flawlessly, and as Ike or somebody like him said, no plan survives first engagement with the enemy. Trump does not have a unified national intent behind him. I don't agree with him or his policies, in this or any other regard but trying to think dispassionately, I think appointing Bolton to signal strength of will demands having somebody more flexible to negotiate the real outcome. For example, Trump is probably going to lose the trade war over Iran. They need Boeing spares but if he continues to blackball Iranian trade the future air fleet will be Airbus with loans from Germany and France. Trump is going to lose a trade war in China because China holds far more US debt than Americans hold Chinese debt and China has far more market reach into emerging markets in Africa since the decision to decouple trade and local politics was made clear: you can trade with China and continue to repress your own people or trade with America and have to clean up your act.
Tsubasachan 8y ago
Good advice that we should all take into consideration. Were it not that New York is part of the United States. Whose idea was...oh wait https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Breda_(1667) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Breda_(1667) Mea culpa.
Gonzih 8y ago
This is a thing not just in China based organizations. A lot of hi-tech companies around the world have clause in a contract that does not allow any employees to traves to US while carrying anything containing IP of a company or discourage employees from traveling to US altogether.
eganist 8y ago
Surprising amount of support for IP theft here today. The US got away with it because countries like the UK couldn't police it during the industrial revolution. Whoops. The Chinese got away with it because the US couldn't police it on the global stage. Whoops. --- But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now... soooo why would we not? Why would we permit it because others historically got away with it? Without civility, you only own what you can defend.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  >But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now... soooo why would we not?... That's just the thing though right? I mean, if the Chinese are engaging in IP theft in a fashion that is both broad, (across all industries), and brazen, then how effective can our policing methods be? The only thing we can really do is stop trading with them. Which is really not going to stop them stealing ideas, nor will it stop their domestic market from growing. The reason every great power in history engaged in blatant IP theft, is because it really has been extremely difficult to prevent it throughout human history. (Greeks were really smart, so Romans and Egyptians stole metallurgy from them.) IP theft is just a hard problem.
- stale2002 8y ago
  > But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now... soooo why would we not? Because IP law is morally wrong and makes the world a significantly worse place? Anything that underminds IP law is good, in my book, no matter who benefits. There are lots of horrible things in the world that would be economicly beneficial to the offending party, that we don't do because they are wrong.
- Havoc 8y ago
  >But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now eh...really? Like how? You really think IP theft got halted because one guy was arrested?
- forkandwait 8y ago
  A lot of us don't really think intellectual property is actually property and thar the notion of IP is, well, bullshit.
Havoc 8y ago
I kind feel the same about the US. The majority of the horror stories about people being forced to spit out password and getting devices taken away for copying...straight out of the country that spends all its time exporting "freedom". Pretty happy in Europe. China, Russia and America all seem dodgy AF lately. Overtly so...I shudder to think what happens behind the scenes.
- NotAmazin 8y ago
  You might be right, but perhaps countries with something to lose might be better places to live because of opportunity. I understand you give up some rights in exchange for 'freedom' but the opportunities are better. Sometimes you just have to live blissfully aware.
forapurpose 8y ago
Remember that this is not an accident or byproduct, but a goal of nationalists in the U.S. government (and probably in China too). They seek division and a breakdown of international relations and activities.
stevefan1999 8y ago
After Meng's case, I think not only Chinese Hi-Tech company would avoid US, so would Chinese entrepreneurs. I guess one of the side effect would be less VCs in China in 2019 - Until the trade war is sorted out.

153 points by smaili 8y ago

It's like a cold war on technology advancement here... wait. that's just the cold war, except this time more politics, fewer submarines.

mc32 8y ago
Kind of opposite of the Cold War, where despite (geo)political differences, we tried to cooperate in the sciences, where possible/prudent...
- vkou 8y ago
  And unlike the Cold War, both sides' economies are completely tied to trade with the other. Before anyone feels too complacent about that fact - trade doesn't have a great track record of preventing actual wars. WWI was considered unthinkable, because of how tightly the two sides were entangled in trade.
  - lettergram 8y ago
    It's also why several of the countries had issues feeding their populations during the war(s). I think it's fair to say, that what exasperated WWI was the secret (and not so secret), alliances everyone had made. Such that when Austria decided to invade Serbia, France had to declare war on the Ottoman Empire... (traditionally an enemy of Austria)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

jhowell 8y ago

It's essential. From my reading of the news it seems the Chinese want access to US universities, tech and financial service companies for a variety of reasons. I'd imagine that access to these resources is impossible without coming to the US.

alottafunchata 8y ago

"researchers"

bazeblackwood 8y ago
"scare quotes"

pytyper2 8y ago

Because they are likely working for institutions that are committing IP theft, in this case it's better to keep them honest, they don't have a culture that respects the rules and customs of other cultures (common law, contract law).

DennisP 8y ago
Which is also what the U.S. did for its first century or so. A lot of us think U.S. IP law has seriously overextended itself these days. I'm not sure I entirely blame China for not going along with it.
- fatjokes 8y ago
  You're not wrong. I wouldn't blame the US for wanting to defend against it. I just wouldn't bother with the "morality" card vs. a simple transactional justification.
- polartx 8y ago
  Ah yes, because Samuel Slater smuggled cotton spinner trade secrets out of England in 1789, China is justified committing IP theft today. Sound logic
  - starbeast 8y ago
    The definition of theft of IP is entirely a product of local jurisdiction though, given we are talking about temporary monopolies on ephemera and not physical protection of personal claims on objects or spaces.
    - pnw_hazor 8y ago
      China defines IP theft the same as EU and USA (more or less.)
      - starbeast 8y ago
        Clearly there are some differences of opinion, given the context.

EGreg 8y ago

USA’s main exports are IP and Dollars. They have engaged in petrodollar warfare and international treaties to protect the demand for their export and intimidate those (like Kim Dotcom) who threaten it in other countries. Just like Russia has done for natural gas, for instance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership-t-tip/t-tip-10 https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/tran...

pavel_lishin 8y ago
> There's only four things we [Americans] do better than anyone else: music, movies, microcode (software), and high speed pizza delivery Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash

thrillgore 8y ago

Smart thinking. Similarly, I would not travel to China if I am big into research or am C-level. In case they want to respond in kind.

stevenjohns 8y ago

I've taken similar advice from HN -- not to travel to the US unless it's essential -- and I've heeded that quite closely. It's unsurprising that people significantly more important than me are being advised the same in more formal situations.

kasey_junk 8y ago
The US has had travel advisories for specific people against China in effect since Jan 2018: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/china-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/... I've worked for years at companies that had corporate policy to either wash or destroy phones/computers taken into China. That is to say, it's unsurprising that any 2 countries engaged in a trade war (hot or cold) would take these precautions against each other.

ggm 8y ago

The cold war experience of tit-for-tat has two lessons: Firstly, somebody has to make a move either at parity which is respected or below, and the "you blinked first" message has to be ignored. Secondly, there are always collateral damages. You can't afford to expel Russian diplomatic staff so you expel east Germans. You don't want to risk core staff so you send friendly nations into harm's way. Canada was thrown into harm's way to avoid a bigger problem. The question is: who is willing to de scale the tit-for-tat response first?

bilbo0s 8y ago
Can't fight a trade war like a cold war. I actually think Trump is doing it right. I mean, if you're going to fight a trade war, you have to do the kinds of things he's doing. Now the problem is... economic reality. If the other guy just has the bigger market long term, especially if they can grow their market without you, you're just at a disadvantage. I think we can get some short term wins, but in the long term, we would have to prosecute this trade war flawlessly to come out on top. That's just the reality of large markets looking to de-link themselves from global carbon energy resources. Long term, if we're all intent on ending the age of oil and coal, there's just nothing to keep everyone cooperating with each other.
- ggm 8y ago
  This trade war is not being prosecuted flawlessly, and as Ike or somebody like him said, no plan survives first engagement with the enemy. Trump does not have a unified national intent behind him. I don't agree with him or his policies, in this or any other regard but trying to think dispassionately, I think appointing Bolton to signal strength of will demands having somebody more flexible to negotiate the real outcome. For example, Trump is probably going to lose the trade war over Iran. They need Boeing spares but if he continues to blackball Iranian trade the future air fleet will be Airbus with loans from Germany and France. Trump is going to lose a trade war in China because China holds far more US debt than Americans hold Chinese debt and China has far more market reach into emerging markets in Africa since the decision to decouple trade and local politics was made clear: you can trade with China and continue to repress your own people or trade with America and have to clean up your act.

Tsubasachan 8y ago

Good advice that we should all take into consideration. Were it not that New York is part of the United States. Whose idea was...oh wait https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Breda_(1667) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Breda_(1667) Mea culpa.

Gonzih 8y ago

This is a thing not just in China based organizations. A lot of hi-tech companies around the world have clause in a contract that does not allow any employees to traves to US while carrying anything containing IP of a company or discourage employees from traveling to US altogether.

eganist 8y ago

Surprising amount of support for IP theft here today. The US got away with it because countries like the UK couldn't police it during the industrial revolution. Whoops. The Chinese got away with it because the US couldn't police it on the global stage. Whoops. --- But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now... soooo why would we not? Why would we permit it because others historically got away with it? Without civility, you only own what you can defend.

bilbo0s 8y ago
>But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now... soooo why would we not?... That's just the thing though right? I mean, if the Chinese are engaging in IP theft in a fashion that is both broad, (across all industries), and brazen, then how effective can our policing methods be? The only thing we can really do is stop trading with them. Which is really not going to stop them stealing ideas, nor will it stop their domestic market from growing. The reason every great power in history engaged in blatant IP theft, is because it really has been extremely difficult to prevent it throughout human history. (Greeks were really smart, so Romans and Egyptians stole metallurgy from them.) IP theft is just a hard problem.
stale2002 8y ago
> But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now... soooo why would we not? Because IP law is morally wrong and makes the world a significantly worse place? Anything that underminds IP law is good, in my book, no matter who benefits. There are lots of horrible things in the world that would be economicly beneficial to the offending party, that we don't do because they are wrong.
Havoc 8y ago
>But the US might've found a way to police it effectively now eh...really? Like how? You really think IP theft got halted because one guy was arrested?
forkandwait 8y ago
A lot of us don't really think intellectual property is actually property and thar the notion of IP is, well, bullshit.

Havoc 8y ago

I kind feel the same about the US. The majority of the horror stories about people being forced to spit out password and getting devices taken away for copying...straight out of the country that spends all its time exporting "freedom". Pretty happy in Europe. China, Russia and America all seem dodgy AF lately. Overtly so...I shudder to think what happens behind the scenes.

NotAmazin 8y ago
You might be right, but perhaps countries with something to lose might be better places to live because of opportunity. I understand you give up some rights in exchange for 'freedom' but the opportunities are better. Sometimes you just have to live blissfully aware.

forapurpose 8y ago

Remember that this is not an accident or byproduct, but a goal of nationalists in the U.S. government (and probably in China too). They seek division and a breakdown of international relations and activities.

stevefan1999 8y ago

After Meng's case, I think not only Chinese Hi-Tech company would avoid US, so would Chinese entrepreneurs. I guess one of the side effect would be less VCs in China in 2019 - Until the trade war is sorted out.