10 ms·

How to Grow Old (1951)

476 points by sitajay 8y ago

crunchiebones 8y ago
"An individual human existence should be like a river — small at first, narrowly contained within its banks, and rushing passionately past rocks and over waterfalls. Gradually the river grows wider, the banks recede, the waters flow more quietly, and in the end, without any visible break, they become merged in the sea, and painlessly lose their individual being." I think he's describing Ego Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death it reminds me of this quote from André Gide: "But, above this, there is still a higher state, to which Goethe achieves, the Olympian. He understands that originality limits, that by being personal he is simply anyone. And by letting himself live in things, like Pan, everywhere, he thrusts aside all limits until he no longer has any but those of the world itself. He becomes banal, but in a superior way. It is dangerous to achieve too early that superior banality. If one does not absorb everything, one loses oneself completely. The mind must be greater than the world and contain it, or else it is pitifully dissolved and is no longer even original."
- aldoushuxley001 8y ago
  Surprised I'd never heard of André Gide until now. Quite the body of work. Nice to see some Goethian influnece too
- nemo1618 8y ago
  "Croyez ceux qui cherchent la vérité, doutez de ceux qui la trouvent." - André Gide
lordleft 8y ago
"Of remoter ancestors I can only discover one who did not live to a great age, and he died of a disease which is now rare, namely, having his head cut off."
neom 8y ago
Bertrand Russell is awesome, there are quite a few good interviews with him on the youtube, my favourite is this one, on philosophy itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvOcjzQ32Fw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvOcjzQ32Fw
lwhalen 8y ago
The last paragraph, to me, is most poignant: "...in an old man who has known human joys and sorrows, and has achieved whatever work it was in him to do, the fear of death is somewhat abject and ignoble. The best way to overcome it -so at least it seems to me- is to make your interests gradually wider and more impersonal, until bit by bit the walls of the ego recede, and your life becomes increasingly merged in the universal life. An individual human existence should be like a river: small at first, narrowly contained within its banks, and rushing passionately past rocks and over waterfalls. Gradually the river grows wider, the banks recede, the waters flow more quietly, and in the end, without any visible break, they become merged in the sea, and painlessly lose their individual being. "
- aldoushuxley001 8y ago
  Yeah wow that's a beautiful passage and analogy. Didn't realize Bertrand Russel was a poet as well as a mathematician!
  - Koshkin 8y ago
    To be fair, this is not poetry, this is (good) philosophy; by the way, analogy (isomorphism etc.) is a powerful tool in mathematics and not just in poetry.
    - aldoushuxley001 8y ago
      Good philosophy and poetry are often interwined, one almost begets the other.
      - natalyarostova 8y ago
        Ehh... I know you mean this well, but for those of us into more rigorous philosophy of science I can't fully agree :)
        aldoushuxley001 8y ago
denzil_correa 8y ago
> But if you are one of those who are incapable of impersonal interests, you may find that your life will be empty unless you concern yourself with your children and grandchildren. In that case you must realise that while you can still render them material services, such as making them an allowance or knitting them jumpers, you must not expect that they will enjoy your company. Quite practical.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Unfortunately, "you must not expect that they will enjoy your company" applies to lots more than "children and grandchildren". That is, I mean, age discrimination.
mark_l_watson 8y ago
Great read, I just sent the link to some non-HN reading friends and my brother. I am turning 68 in a few months and I try to do most of what he recommends. Enjoy younger family and acquaintances but also leave them to their lives, being satisfied to just enrich their lives materially and give them space. I had to think about the wording of his advice to persue ‘impersonal interests’ which for me is studying Go with a Korean Go master and learning those aspects of (general) artificial intelligence that most interest me, without much thought to practical considerations.
- ngcc_hk 8y ago
  I prepare for my days 30 years by start to learn go.
- minhaz23 8y ago
  What exactly are those aspects of general artificial intelligenxe, and how does learning Go relate? Any advice for those curious and interested but inaccessible to an instructor? Thanks in advance, and happy 68!
  - mark_l_watson 8y ago
    As interesting as Alpha Go is, for me studying Go as a game and my interest in AGI (fusion of classic symbolic AI with deep learning, and deep learning in general) are separate interests for me. Advice for learning Go without an instructor: buy a Go playing program (I like CS Pro on my iPad) that can analyze your games, showing you what your bad moves are and showing an alternative.
    - nimithryn 8y ago
      Curious what you're working on and if you have any specific references - I'm also interested in fusion of classic symbolic AI with deep learning
artur_makly 8y ago
https://aeon.co/videos/a-fanatic-against-fanaticism-and-other-pleasures-of-bertrand-russell-in-his-own-words https://aeon.co/videos/a-fanatic-against-fanaticism-and-othe...
Ngunyan 8y ago
>I should wish to die while still at work, knowing that others will carry on what I can no longer do and content in the thought that what was possible has been done. I fear death because I fear no one will look after the things that I cared about in the same passion and in the same way that I do. I guess I am too sentimental for what I've done to the things I love.
- Mithriil 8y ago
  What makes you think noone will choose a similar path to yours with the same passion?
- mevile 8y ago
  I think you have a solvable problem. Just find people who do care about things as much as you do.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    This is IMO the directly wrong approach. Realise instead that no-one, not even your own offspring (see comments elsewhere on that one), will share your exact approach, your exact balance of desires, your exact passion. Give it up. Death will come and force the situation; don't be beholden to that which can never be achieved.
sharadov 8y ago
This struck a chord, in simple terms he's saying develop interests which you can pursue for the sheer joy they give you. Unfortunately, most people are always looking for a net benefit from everything - relationships, work, hobbies
vitoc 8y ago
Russell published "The Conquest of Happiness" 26 years before this essay. I spot all of the causes of happiness from "The Conquest" in this essay: Zest, Affection, Family, Work, Impersonal Interest, Effort & Resignation :) Check out https://happy.runningroot.com/ https://happy.runningroot.com/ HAPPY is a modern and visual journey through The Conquest of Happiness, Bertrand Russell’s age-old advise on happiness. It provides a convenient framework that helps establish mindfulness towards the causes of unhappiness and understanding while embracing the causes of happiness. HAPPY provides concise notes on what to look out for using many examples from philosophy, history and art. Given that happiness is a vast subject, the framework in HAPPY is a practical way of embedding Russell's ideas in your life without going too deep into the science, psychology and philosophy. It helps you benefit from these understanding with a constant mental awareness that sustains your happiness for productivity and health.
dfgert 8y ago
Being in the company of your child's family is indispensable in late old age(part of life when one is physically and mentally incapable of excising things OP mentioned). Joy that old folks gets by spending time with grandchildren is irreplaceable. Witnessing the daily life of child's family and being part of it is excellent for psychological health, helps mind stay in present and not drift back to past or other unnecessary worries. What your child feels about you staying with them is something that you inculcate in them when they are young. If you didn't bother sharing space with your parents in the time of there need then your child won't either.
- kilroy123 8y ago
  What if you don't want children? Hence, you'll have no grandchildren.
archagon 8y ago
Russell’s thoughts on ego-recession remind me of yesterday’s AMA with Jason Rohrer, where he talks about how his shifting sense of place in the world informs the design of his latest game, “One Hour One Life”. The game is a survival/crafting MMO where you start as the baby of another player, completely helpless, and try to do as much as you can to move civilization forward before you die. It’s interesting to compare this to one of his earliest games, Passage, which deals with a similar theme but from the perspective of a single individual. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a67qi1/im_jason_rohrer_solo_dev_of_one_hour_one_life_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a67qi1/im_jason_rohre...
sealthedeal 8y ago
Or overcome death by the belief in an afterlife...
thickice 8y ago
What does he mean by this "My first advice would be to choose your ancestors carefully." ?
- mevile 8y ago
  It's a joke. You can't choose your ancestors, what he's saying is that the experience of getting older is dictated in no small part by the genes you inherited. Looking at your family's medical history will inform you of what might be in store for you.
mevile 8y ago
> As regards health, I have nothing useful to say as I have little experience of illness. I eat and drink whatever I like, and sleep when I cannot keep awake. I never do anything whatever on the ground that it is good for health, though in actual fact the things I like doing are mostly wholesome. This is terrible advice fwiw. It might have been less terrible in 1951 before the explosion of terrible food choices. Science shows the benefits of exercise and proper nutrition + calorie restriction. You are very likely to age better if you avoid bad lifestyle decisions. Eat well. Sleep lots. Exercise. We really shouldn't be spreading messages to the contrary. Look down at your gut. It's killing you. It's destroying your organs with high blood pressure, insulin resistance and fatty liver tissue and likely doing so without causing any discernible symptoms. You won't know you're dying until it's too late.
- rejberg 8y ago
  > As regards health, I have nothing useful to say as I have little experience of illness. I interpreted this sentence as a disclaimer that what follows is explicitly not advice.
ca98am79 8y ago
This is nice and I like the advice to not dwell on the past. I can see the temptation to do this as I grow older. One sentence, though, I disagree with is "One’s thoughts must be directed to the future." I understand what he is saying, but I think better advice would be "One’s thoughts must be directed to the present." His main advice seems to be to find something that interests you enough so that you are happy to do it every day - to me, something like this keeps you focused on the present and not the future.

476 points by sitajay 8y ago

"An individual human existence should be like a river — small at first, narrowly contained within its banks, and rushing passionately past rocks and over waterfalls. Gradually the river grows wider, the banks recede, the waters flow more quietly, and in the end, without any visible break, they become merged in the sea, and painlessly lose their individual being." I think he's describing Ego Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death it reminds me of this quote from André Gide: "But, above this, there is still a higher state, to which Goethe achieves, the Olympian. He understands that originality limits, that by being personal he is simply anyone. And by letting himself live in things, like Pan, everywhere, he thrusts aside all limits until he no longer has any but those of the world itself. He becomes banal, but in a superior way. It is dangerous to achieve too early that superior banality. If one does not absorb everything, one loses oneself completely. The mind must be greater than the world and contain it, or else it is pitifully dissolved and is no longer even original."

aldoushuxley001 8y ago
Surprised I'd never heard of André Gide until now. Quite the body of work. Nice to see some Goethian influnece too
nemo1618 8y ago
"Croyez ceux qui cherchent la vérité, doutez de ceux qui la trouvent." - André Gide

lordleft 8y ago

"Of remoter ancestors I can only discover one who did not live to a great age, and he died of a disease which is now rare, namely, having his head cut off."

neom 8y ago

Bertrand Russell is awesome, there are quite a few good interviews with him on the youtube, my favourite is this one, on philosophy itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvOcjzQ32Fw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvOcjzQ32Fw

lwhalen 8y ago

The last paragraph, to me, is most poignant: "...in an old man who has known human joys and sorrows, and has achieved whatever work it was in him to do, the fear of death is somewhat abject and ignoble. The best way to overcome it -so at least it seems to me- is to make your interests gradually wider and more impersonal, until bit by bit the walls of the ego recede, and your life becomes increasingly merged in the universal life. An individual human existence should be like a river: small at first, narrowly contained within its banks, and rushing passionately past rocks and over waterfalls. Gradually the river grows wider, the banks recede, the waters flow more quietly, and in the end, without any visible break, they become merged in the sea, and painlessly lose their individual being. "

aldoushuxley001 8y ago
Yeah wow that's a beautiful passage and analogy. Didn't realize Bertrand Russel was a poet as well as a mathematician!
- Koshkin 8y ago
  To be fair, this is not poetry, this is (good) philosophy; by the way, analogy (isomorphism etc.) is a powerful tool in mathematics and not just in poetry.
  - aldoushuxley001 8y ago
    Good philosophy and poetry are often interwined, one almost begets the other.
    - natalyarostova 8y ago
      Ehh... I know you mean this well, but for those of us into more rigorous philosophy of science I can't fully agree :)
      - aldoushuxley001 8y ago

denzil_correa 8y ago

> But if you are one of those who are incapable of impersonal interests, you may find that your life will be empty unless you concern yourself with your children and grandchildren. In that case you must realise that while you can still render them material services, such as making them an allowance or knitting them jumpers, you must not expect that they will enjoy your company. Quite practical.

mirimir 8y ago
Unfortunately, "you must not expect that they will enjoy your company" applies to lots more than "children and grandchildren". That is, I mean, age discrimination.

mark_l_watson 8y ago

Great read, I just sent the link to some non-HN reading friends and my brother. I am turning 68 in a few months and I try to do most of what he recommends. Enjoy younger family and acquaintances but also leave them to their lives, being satisfied to just enrich their lives materially and give them space. I had to think about the wording of his advice to persue ‘impersonal interests’ which for me is studying Go with a Korean Go master and learning those aspects of (general) artificial intelligence that most interest me, without much thought to practical considerations.

ngcc_hk 8y ago
I prepare for my days 30 years by start to learn go.
minhaz23 8y ago
What exactly are those aspects of general artificial intelligenxe, and how does learning Go relate? Any advice for those curious and interested but inaccessible to an instructor? Thanks in advance, and happy 68!
- mark_l_watson 8y ago
  As interesting as Alpha Go is, for me studying Go as a game and my interest in AGI (fusion of classic symbolic AI with deep learning, and deep learning in general) are separate interests for me. Advice for learning Go without an instructor: buy a Go playing program (I like CS Pro on my iPad) that can analyze your games, showing you what your bad moves are and showing an alternative.
  - nimithryn 8y ago
    Curious what you're working on and if you have any specific references - I'm also interested in fusion of classic symbolic AI with deep learning

artur_makly 8y ago

https://aeon.co/videos/a-fanatic-against-fanaticism-and-other-pleasures-of-bertrand-russell-in-his-own-words https://aeon.co/videos/a-fanatic-against-fanaticism-and-othe...

Ngunyan 8y ago

>I should wish to die while still at work, knowing that others will carry on what I can no longer do and content in the thought that what was possible has been done. I fear death because I fear no one will look after the things that I cared about in the same passion and in the same way that I do. I guess I am too sentimental for what I've done to the things I love.

Mithriil 8y ago
What makes you think noone will choose a similar path to yours with the same passion?
mevile 8y ago
I think you have a solvable problem. Just find people who do care about things as much as you do.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  This is IMO the directly wrong approach. Realise instead that no-one, not even your own offspring (see comments elsewhere on that one), will share your exact approach, your exact balance of desires, your exact passion. Give it up. Death will come and force the situation; don't be beholden to that which can never be achieved.

sharadov 8y ago

This struck a chord, in simple terms he's saying develop interests which you can pursue for the sheer joy they give you. Unfortunately, most people are always looking for a net benefit from everything - relationships, work, hobbies

vitoc 8y ago

Russell published "The Conquest of Happiness" 26 years before this essay. I spot all of the causes of happiness from "The Conquest" in this essay: Zest, Affection, Family, Work, Impersonal Interest, Effort & Resignation :) Check out https://happy.runningroot.com/ https://happy.runningroot.com/ HAPPY is a modern and visual journey through The Conquest of Happiness, Bertrand Russell’s age-old advise on happiness. It provides a convenient framework that helps establish mindfulness towards the causes of unhappiness and understanding while embracing the causes of happiness. HAPPY provides concise notes on what to look out for using many examples from philosophy, history and art. Given that happiness is a vast subject, the framework in HAPPY is a practical way of embedding Russell's ideas in your life without going too deep into the science, psychology and philosophy. It helps you benefit from these understanding with a constant mental awareness that sustains your happiness for productivity and health.

dfgert 8y ago

Being in the company of your child's family is indispensable in late old age(part of life when one is physically and mentally incapable of excising things OP mentioned). Joy that old folks gets by spending time with grandchildren is irreplaceable. Witnessing the daily life of child's family and being part of it is excellent for psychological health, helps mind stay in present and not drift back to past or other unnecessary worries. What your child feels about you staying with them is something that you inculcate in them when they are young. If you didn't bother sharing space with your parents in the time of there need then your child won't either.

kilroy123 8y ago
What if you don't want children? Hence, you'll have no grandchildren.

archagon 8y ago

Russell’s thoughts on ego-recession remind me of yesterday’s AMA with Jason Rohrer, where he talks about how his shifting sense of place in the world informs the design of his latest game, “One Hour One Life”. The game is a survival/crafting MMO where you start as the baby of another player, completely helpless, and try to do as much as you can to move civilization forward before you die. It’s interesting to compare this to one of his earliest games, Passage, which deals with a similar theme but from the perspective of a single individual. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a67qi1/im_jason_rohrer_solo_dev_of_one_hour_one_life_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/a67qi1/im_jason_rohre...

sealthedeal 8y ago

Or overcome death by the belief in an afterlife...

thickice 8y ago

What does he mean by this "My first advice would be to choose your ancestors carefully." ?

mevile 8y ago
It's a joke. You can't choose your ancestors, what he's saying is that the experience of getting older is dictated in no small part by the genes you inherited. Looking at your family's medical history will inform you of what might be in store for you.

mevile 8y ago

> As regards health, I have nothing useful to say as I have little experience of illness. I eat and drink whatever I like, and sleep when I cannot keep awake. I never do anything whatever on the ground that it is good for health, though in actual fact the things I like doing are mostly wholesome. This is terrible advice fwiw. It might have been less terrible in 1951 before the explosion of terrible food choices. Science shows the benefits of exercise and proper nutrition + calorie restriction. You are very likely to age better if you avoid bad lifestyle decisions. Eat well. Sleep lots. Exercise. We really shouldn't be spreading messages to the contrary. Look down at your gut. It's killing you. It's destroying your organs with high blood pressure, insulin resistance and fatty liver tissue and likely doing so without causing any discernible symptoms. You won't know you're dying until it's too late.

rejberg 8y ago
> As regards health, I have nothing useful to say as I have little experience of illness. I interpreted this sentence as a disclaimer that what follows is explicitly not advice.

ca98am79 8y ago

This is nice and I like the advice to not dwell on the past. I can see the temptation to do this as I grow older. One sentence, though, I disagree with is "One’s thoughts must be directed to the future." I understand what he is saying, but I think better advice would be "One’s thoughts must be directed to the present." His main advice seems to be to find something that interests you enough so that you are happy to do it every day - to me, something like this keeps you focused on the present and not the future.