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You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service. I was seriously confused why our waters werent getting filled up, despit

You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service. I was seriously confused why our waters werent getting filled up, despite walking 10+ miles before noon. Or why the waiter wasnt coming to our table to take our order. Or why the waiter didn't check on us. After sharing this story with locals, it seems their expectations are far less for restaurants. I don't have much of an opinion on how to pay waiters, but Italy did not impress me.

saidajigumi 8y ago
I'm not familiar with Italy specifically, but note that service expectations differ broadly in the EU. In many countries, customers expect to be left alone until they signal the wait staff for something. The American notion of staff that hovers over and/or badgers you constantly is largely absent. In the countries I've travelled to, I've generally had excellent service, bearing the above in mind.
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > The American notion of staff that hovers over and/or badgers you constantly is largely absent. This is a straw man. Nobody in the US expects this - and in fact, it's rare that this even happens. At most the server will "interrupt" you once once your food arrives to check in, and even that varies by restaurant. > In many countries, customers expect to be left alone until they signal the wait staff for something I think you're missing what people are talking about when they talk about "terrible or slow service" in Europe. It's not that they wait for you to signal to them, but that they take so long to appear where you can find them in the first place, and that once you do grab their attention, they still take ages to actually come and serve you. They're not necessarily doing anything important or urgent (chatting idly with their coworkers, wiping down the bar, what have you), and it's eminently clear that they simply don't view providing prompt and effective service to customers as their priority. I could give countless stories of how slow and inefficient service in Europe tends to be, or even how downright rude servers can be. For the record, yes, this is a strictly European phenomenon. There are plenty of other places in the world (both where tipping is expected and where it isn't) where this is not an issue.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > At most the server will "interrupt" you once once your food arrives to check in My experience is that is closer to a (frequently exceeded) minimum in US restaurants offering full table service than a maximum (except for the rare case where the server completely disappears and neither checks nor can be summoned without accosting a busser or some other server, but those are presumably employee failures and not restaurant practice.)
    - zdragnar 8y ago
      Having lived in the US all my life, service typically goes as follows: Host seats you Waiter delivers menus, asks if you want drinks Waiter returns with drinks, asks if you're ready to order, and if not, comes back 5 min later Waiter delivers food Waiter comes back in 5 minutes to make sure it's to your liking Waiter comes back to ask if you want dessert, and if not, hands you the bill. If you've taken a long time to eat, they may return once or twice to keep your drinks topped off. That's it. It's formulaic and quite standard. In my decades of living in various states, I've never had an experience like I see EU folk on here complain about.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        Having also lived in the USA all my life, several rounds of checking in if they can get anything else, refill drinks, and/or clear plates are also common, though not universal (and better—read, roughly, more expensive—establishments will do much of that without asking and so interrupt less for the same end result.)
        irascible 8y ago
        Yeah. And that often bugs the shit out of me. I know they are doing the excessive attention thing, angling for a bigger tip.. which.. I already tip minimum 20% but they don't know that.. and there's no protocol for "everything is fine please leave me/us alone", not to mention, it puts the power dynamic in stark relief, which is not what I'm eating out for. I'm currently vacationing in mexico, and it's delightful to not have hovering service. Pay your staff a living wage.
sitharus 8y ago
In my country it's considered rude to interrupt people while they're talking or eating. We wouldn't want someone to come to the table without being asked. Unless you're at a dinner service often water isn't served, you're expected to get it yourself from the counter. In the major cities US-style service is more common and most locals find it annoying and just wave the server away. The worst service I've ever had was in Canada where they do tip, and I was rating that by the North American standards rather than my home country's. I still tipped the standard amount because I disagree with tipping, but he didn't seem incentivised. It's important to rate experiences by what the region is expecting, not by what you expect at home.
- chapium 8y ago
  It wouldnt be considered rude if it were a routine transaction, which in the US it is. Obviously we wouldnt want the waiter interrupting for tasks outside the norm.
timr 8y ago
"You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service." Then you go to Japan, where the service is dramatically better than the US, and you realize that they don't expect tips, either...
- kbar13 8y ago
  japan's culture highly highly values above and beyond service. i dont think you'll be able to get anything like japanese level service anywhere else
  - berbec 8y ago
    Oh you can, even in America. The best service I ever encountered was at Jean George's in NYC. It WAS a Michelan-Starred restaurant and our two-person bill was $800 with a $200 tip!
nihonde 8y ago
The level of service in Japan, where tipping is not customary, completely disproves your thesis.
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  It doesn’t disprove it. It could disprove it, or Japan could just have an incredibly polite service oriented culture.
  - 51lver 8y ago
    It nicely shoots down the idea that tipping is required for good service. Done.
    - friedman23 8y ago
      Good job shooting down that argument, can you point me to where someone made that claim?
      - nihonde 8y ago
        “You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service.” = A policy of no tips results in poor service.
        friedman23 8y ago
        No that statement does not state that tips are required for good service, it implies that if Europe had tips it would have better service than it does today. Obviously tips are not required for good service as many restaurants and even Japan as a whole manage to do it.
  - perfmode 8y ago
    I recommend you check out this book: “How to Read and Do Proofs: An Introduction to Mathematical Thought Processes” https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Proofs-Introduction-Mathematical/dp/1118164024 https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Proofs-Introduction-Mathemat...
vernie 8y ago
Americans love to be tyrannical and punitive, particularly with service employees. And business owners are more than happy to grant them that in exchange for lower wages. Feels like a fair trade to me.
- batiudrami 8y ago
  It's an interesting cultural thing though. The number of times I've seen people on HN calling for someone to lose their job over a public fuck up rather than treating it as a learning experience for the employee seems absurd. The idea that you should grovel and always defer to your boss because they're kind enough to employ you is something I've only seen from Americans.
  - ramphastidae 8y ago
    > The idea that you should grovel and always defer to your boss because they're kind enough to employ you is something I've only seen from Americans. Because that's the reality — most of us can be fired at any time for any reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dhab 8y ago
In my experience having lived in 3 countries (5 years each), where tipping was implied good etiquette the most only in the US, and partly in Canada; by the rough measure of filling water or checking on folks and things of that sort, US isn't any better or worse than the other countries. In fact, I was actually told by someone in the US told me they employ strategies of being friendly and spend a few minutes conversing with patrons as they present the bill, so that they can drive the tip up (for good reasons - since they depend on them quite a bit). Where I am living currently, I think there is more income equality - partly I believe is because of having more or less good wages despite line of work, and you get treated like how someone would normally treat you without being forced upon with the expectation of a tip.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
philliphaydon 8y ago
There is no tipping in Asia and I have better service here than Europe? Especially in Taiwan. Drop a chop stick? They are at your table with a new set before it hits the ground. Cup half empty, boom they fill it.
rb666 8y ago
Silly anecdotal evidence. I can counter that with having received terrible service in the US. Especially because each waited only cares about their own little territory where they expect to farm tips. Means getting ignored by other waiters. I supposes Americans are used to this, but travel some and you'll realize it's completely bonkers, and NOT good service.
tjr225 8y ago
Not impressed by the deeply poor? Color me un-empathetic. That's the entire issue that is being discussed here. Supply and demand has nothing to do with humanity.
chrischen 8y ago
I can provide an anecdote too. You can go to Japan, and get treated with terribly good service (no tips there).
manigandham 8y ago
Cultures vary. Many regions have waiters that are called when needed rather than coming by themselves. I much prefer that to the awkward interruptions in American restaurants just so we can say "everything's fine" in the middle of a conversation. Waiters working for tips leads to a territorial approach to customers and leads to an awkward dynamic where they aren't focused on good service but rather the impression of good service required for the tip.
nicolas_t 8y ago
What's interesting is that every time the topic comes up, you get Europeans who complain about the service in the US and Americans who complain about the service in Europe. I'm on the European side of things so I do not want to be approached while eating. I want to flag the waiter whenever I want something and I absolutely hate fake small talk in order to drive the tip up. It feels so artificial and not genuine (and happened often enough in the US). I do like small talks with waiters that are genuine but having the possibility of a tip kind of destroys that. To be fair though, waiters in touristy places everywhere suck. So that might also be the issue if you went to a tourist hole instead of a restaurant for locals.
msl 8y ago
> You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service. Try Eastern Europe. You are expected to tip, and the service is usually atrociously slow (and not necessarily good in any other way either). Bad service culture is bad service culture. Where I live waiters are expected to perform their jobs properly just like everyone else.
Veen 8y ago
But if I were to say the service was terrible, and therefore I didn't tip, that would be disapproved of. In the US, I am expected to tip whether or not the service was good, so how does that incentivize good service - unless I'm expected to tip even more when I'm pleased with the service.
craftyguy 8y ago
> I was seriously confused why our waters werent getting filled up, despite walking 10+ miles before noon. Or why the waiter wasnt coming to our table to take our order. Or why the waiter didn't check on us. Unlike the US, waiters don't bug you every 30 seconds, and I consider that a feature. You actually have to ask for things you want, and you signal to a waiter when you want something. Unless you found an exceptionally shitty restaurant, they'll almost always come right over.

saidajigumi 8y ago

I'm not familiar with Italy specifically, but note that service expectations differ broadly in the EU. In many countries, customers expect to be left alone until they signal the wait staff for something. The American notion of staff that hovers over and/or badgers you constantly is largely absent. In the countries I've travelled to, I've generally had excellent service, bearing the above in mind.

chimeracoder 8y ago
> The American notion of staff that hovers over and/or badgers you constantly is largely absent. This is a straw man. Nobody in the US expects this - and in fact, it's rare that this even happens. At most the server will "interrupt" you once once your food arrives to check in, and even that varies by restaurant. > In many countries, customers expect to be left alone until they signal the wait staff for something I think you're missing what people are talking about when they talk about "terrible or slow service" in Europe. It's not that they wait for you to signal to them, but that they take so long to appear where you can find them in the first place, and that once you do grab their attention, they still take ages to actually come and serve you. They're not necessarily doing anything important or urgent (chatting idly with their coworkers, wiping down the bar, what have you), and it's eminently clear that they simply don't view providing prompt and effective service to customers as their priority. I could give countless stories of how slow and inefficient service in Europe tends to be, or even how downright rude servers can be. For the record, yes, this is a strictly European phenomenon. There are plenty of other places in the world (both where tipping is expected and where it isn't) where this is not an issue.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > At most the server will "interrupt" you once once your food arrives to check in My experience is that is closer to a (frequently exceeded) minimum in US restaurants offering full table service than a maximum (except for the rare case where the server completely disappears and neither checks nor can be summoned without accosting a busser or some other server, but those are presumably employee failures and not restaurant practice.)
  - zdragnar 8y ago
    Having lived in the US all my life, service typically goes as follows: Host seats you Waiter delivers menus, asks if you want drinks Waiter returns with drinks, asks if you're ready to order, and if not, comes back 5 min later Waiter delivers food Waiter comes back in 5 minutes to make sure it's to your liking Waiter comes back to ask if you want dessert, and if not, hands you the bill. If you've taken a long time to eat, they may return once or twice to keep your drinks topped off. That's it. It's formulaic and quite standard. In my decades of living in various states, I've never had an experience like I see EU folk on here complain about.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      Having also lived in the USA all my life, several rounds of checking in if they can get anything else, refill drinks, and/or clear plates are also common, though not universal (and better—read, roughly, more expensive—establishments will do much of that without asking and so interrupt less for the same end result.)
      - irascible 8y ago
        Yeah. And that often bugs the shit out of me. I know they are doing the excessive attention thing, angling for a bigger tip.. which.. I already tip minimum 20% but they don't know that.. and there's no protocol for "everything is fine please leave me/us alone", not to mention, it puts the power dynamic in stark relief, which is not what I'm eating out for. I'm currently vacationing in mexico, and it's delightful to not have hovering service. Pay your staff a living wage.

sitharus 8y ago

In my country it's considered rude to interrupt people while they're talking or eating. We wouldn't want someone to come to the table without being asked. Unless you're at a dinner service often water isn't served, you're expected to get it yourself from the counter. In the major cities US-style service is more common and most locals find it annoying and just wave the server away. The worst service I've ever had was in Canada where they do tip, and I was rating that by the North American standards rather than my home country's. I still tipped the standard amount because I disagree with tipping, but he didn't seem incentivised. It's important to rate experiences by what the region is expecting, not by what you expect at home.

chapium 8y ago
It wouldnt be considered rude if it were a routine transaction, which in the US it is. Obviously we wouldnt want the waiter interrupting for tasks outside the norm.

timr 8y ago

"You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service." Then you go to Japan, where the service is dramatically better than the US, and you realize that they don't expect tips, either...

kbar13 8y ago
japan's culture highly highly values above and beyond service. i dont think you'll be able to get anything like japanese level service anywhere else
- berbec 8y ago
  Oh you can, even in America. The best service I ever encountered was at Jean George's in NYC. It WAS a Michelan-Starred restaurant and our two-person bill was $800 with a $200 tip!

nihonde 8y ago

The level of service in Japan, where tipping is not customary, completely disproves your thesis.

WillPostForFood 8y ago
It doesn’t disprove it. It could disprove it, or Japan could just have an incredibly polite service oriented culture.
- 51lver 8y ago
  It nicely shoots down the idea that tipping is required for good service. Done.
  - friedman23 8y ago
    Good job shooting down that argument, can you point me to where someone made that claim?
    - nihonde 8y ago
      “You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service.” = A policy of no tips results in poor service.
      - friedman23 8y ago
        No that statement does not state that tips are required for good service, it implies that if Europe had tips it would have better service than it does today. Obviously tips are not required for good service as many restaurants and even Japan as a whole manage to do it.
- perfmode 8y ago
  I recommend you check out this book: “How to Read and Do Proofs: An Introduction to Mathematical Thought Processes” https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Proofs-Introduction-Mathematical/dp/1118164024 https://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Proofs-Introduction-Mathemat...

vernie 8y ago

Americans love to be tyrannical and punitive, particularly with service employees. And business owners are more than happy to grant them that in exchange for lower wages. Feels like a fair trade to me.

batiudrami 8y ago
It's an interesting cultural thing though. The number of times I've seen people on HN calling for someone to lose their job over a public fuck up rather than treating it as a learning experience for the employee seems absurd. The idea that you should grovel and always defer to your boss because they're kind enough to employ you is something I've only seen from Americans.
- ramphastidae 8y ago
  > The idea that you should grovel and always defer to your boss because they're kind enough to employ you is something I've only seen from Americans. Because that's the reality — most of us can be fired at any time for any reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dhab 8y ago

In my experience having lived in 3 countries (5 years each), where tipping was implied good etiquette the most only in the US, and partly in Canada; by the rough measure of filling water or checking on folks and things of that sort, US isn't any better or worse than the other countries. In fact, I was actually told by someone in the US told me they employ strategies of being friendly and spend a few minutes conversing with patrons as they present the bill, so that they can drive the tip up (for good reasons - since they depend on them quite a bit). Where I am living currently, I think there is more income equality - partly I believe is because of having more or less good wages despite line of work, and you get treated like how someone would normally treat you without being forced upon with the expectation of a tip.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

philliphaydon 8y ago

There is no tipping in Asia and I have better service here than Europe? Especially in Taiwan. Drop a chop stick? They are at your table with a new set before it hits the ground. Cup half empty, boom they fill it.

rb666 8y ago

Silly anecdotal evidence. I can counter that with having received terrible service in the US. Especially because each waited only cares about their own little territory where they expect to farm tips. Means getting ignored by other waiters. I supposes Americans are used to this, but travel some and you'll realize it's completely bonkers, and NOT good service.

tjr225 8y ago

Not impressed by the deeply poor? Color me un-empathetic. That's the entire issue that is being discussed here. Supply and demand has nothing to do with humanity.

chrischen 8y ago

I can provide an anecdote too. You can go to Japan, and get treated with terribly good service (no tips there).

manigandham 8y ago

Cultures vary. Many regions have waiters that are called when needed rather than coming by themselves. I much prefer that to the awkward interruptions in American restaurants just so we can say "everything's fine" in the middle of a conversation. Waiters working for tips leads to a territorial approach to customers and leads to an awkward dynamic where they aren't focused on good service but rather the impression of good service required for the tip.

nicolas_t 8y ago

What's interesting is that every time the topic comes up, you get Europeans who complain about the service in the US and Americans who complain about the service in Europe. I'm on the European side of things so I do not want to be approached while eating. I want to flag the waiter whenever I want something and I absolutely hate fake small talk in order to drive the tip up. It feels so artificial and not genuine (and happened often enough in the US). I do like small talks with waiters that are genuine but having the possibility of a tip kind of destroys that. To be fair though, waiters in touristy places everywhere suck. So that might also be the issue if you went to a tourist hole instead of a restaurant for locals.

msl 8y ago

> You say this is a good thing, until you go to Europe and get treated terrible service. Try Eastern Europe. You are expected to tip, and the service is usually atrociously slow (and not necessarily good in any other way either). Bad service culture is bad service culture. Where I live waiters are expected to perform their jobs properly just like everyone else.

Veen 8y ago

But if I were to say the service was terrible, and therefore I didn't tip, that would be disapproved of. In the US, I am expected to tip whether or not the service was good, so how does that incentivize good service - unless I'm expected to tip even more when I'm pleased with the service.

craftyguy 8y ago

> I was seriously confused why our waters werent getting filled up, despite walking 10+ miles before noon. Or why the waiter wasnt coming to our table to take our order. Or why the waiter didn't check on us. Unlike the US, waiters don't bug you every 30 seconds, and I consider that a feature. You actually have to ask for things you want, and you signal to a waiter when you want something. Unless you found an exceptionally shitty restaurant, they'll almost always come right over.