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Joe Stump: Your city sucks (And so does mine)
- wyclif 16y agoHaving been to all these towns, I have to agree with him that Seattle has the best beer scene in the US.
- wwortiz 16y agoMaybe it is because it is right next to Portland. :)
- ojbyrne 16y agoHe didn't actually say that.
- jfb 16y agoAnd yet, the best beer in the country comes from Kalamazoo, Michigan. http://www.bellsbeer.com/ http://www.bellsbeer.com/
- matrix 16y agoI'm a huge fan of Bell's (and am currently missing it terribly), but to be fair I feel there are better breweries out there - granted, not many, but they do exist.
- jfb 16y agoI import it from the Midwest to San Francisco. Currently having a Two-Hearted, and I've got a bunch of Oberon in the basement.
- jfb 16y agoMidwest beer nerds trapped in San Francisco should give me a shout.
- silentbicycle 16y agoYes, and several of them are in Michigan. Bell's is great, but so are Founders and Short's. (New Holland isn't bad either, but kind of second-tier in comparison.)
- sfrench 16y agoI'm not sure he said that. I think if anything, he made the strongest case for Portland. I think he does sell San Francisco a bit short in the beer department. While the city itself isn't known to produce a huge amount of widely known brews, there are a couple good breweries in the city limits. Additionally, some of the best beers in the world are all made within a half-day drive of San Francisco (Russian River, nuff said).
- tkaemming 16y agoIf you're going to call Deschutes a Portland beer at 160+ miles away (and at the same time, leave out Rogue? That one confused me.), I think it's fair to call Russian River, North Coast, Lagunitas, Bear Republic, Anchor, and Sierra Nevada all San Francisco area breweries — and it's a little hard to argue with those. (As long as you like hops, at least.)
- bradhe 16y agoBreweries in Portland: http://www.portlandbeer.org/breweries/ http://www.portlandbeer.org/breweries/
- enjo 16y agoTHIS is where I draw the line. Best beer scene? Really? That's insane. If Boulder does anything right, it's the fact that it's in the center of the beer capital of North America. Avery, Great Divide, New Belgium, O'Dell, Left Hand, and a ton of smaller breweries are within 30 minutes of Boulder. They hold the Great American Beer Festival (see #1 http://allaboutbeer.com/live-beer/culture/2008/05/the-growler-list-125-places-to-have-a-beer-before-you-die/ http://allaboutbeer.com/live-beer/culture/2008/05/the-growle...) in Denver for a reason. It's bizarre that Joe didn't mention it. Colorado absolutely kicks ass at beer:) *EDIT: I should also mention that we just elected a fricking brewer as as our new governor. :)
- wyclif 16y agoColorado does have some great beers. I'm a big fan of Fat Tire and the other New Belgium beers.
- wwortiz 16y agoIf you like fat tire you should try 90 shilling from from Odell Brewing Company (if you can find it). I find fat tire really depends on what batch you get and how lucky you are for how good it is but 90 shilling is consistently good. As are most of the other beers from Odell, I personally like their Cutthroat Porter.
- paulbaumgart 16y agoHere are some interesting statistics on craft breweries per capita: http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft-brewing-statistics/breweries-per-capita http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/business-tools/craft... It's too bad they don't break it down by city.
- zackattack 16y agowhat about vancouver (canada)?
- rbxbx 16y agoI'm also curious about this one...
- fiveo 16y agovancouver WA (US) or vancouver BC (Canada). Anyway, forget about them both, there's nothing in those cities. Vancouver BC has lots of small (but weird) "social media" startups that probably died within 2-3 years. Lots of "online gaming" (I mean gambling) companies. All talents either move south of the border or to the East. We have 3 good schools: UBC, SFU, and UVic. Lots of people who want to enjoy life. I don't mean to be negative but it is what it is.
- mikeyur 16y agoSize: Vancouver is a "big" city (or at least tries to be), but it's still pretty small. Small in a good way though, the population is ~2m in the metro area but the city itself is ~600k. The downtown core is completely walkable. It's always more of a hassle to hop on the train for 2 stops than to just walk. Clean, can't recall ever seeing poop (human or animal) on the sidewalk. Rent: for downtown living in the more expensive parts, you're probably looking at $1600-2500 cdn for a 2bdrm. Don't mind commuting 10-15 minutes on the train/by bus: $1000-1600 for a decent place. You can get a studio or 1 bdrm in the west end (downtown) for $800-1200, add a few hundred more if you're looking at coal harbour/yaletown. Outdoors: Parks, everywhere - a couple large ones and tons of small ones (a couple soccer fields, running track, etc). You've got more ocean than you could ever ask for and a couple local mountains (~20-25 mins from downtown by driving, or take transit + gondola up grouse which will probably be an hour or so). And you're 1 hour from Whistler. Lakes and camping within an hour of the city. There's also Stanley Park right downtown. One of the biggest advantages seems to be that you can get outdoors and feel 'out of the city' within the city limits. Entertainment: Hockey (NHL/WHL) and Canadian football. Same amount of large bands coming through here as any major US city, good small venues as well for some local bands and smaller acts. Transit: The city has pretty decent transit and it's cheap. $2.50 for a transfer (last 1.5hrs) or ~$80 for a 1 month, unlimited 1 zone pass. There are 3 SkyTrain lines which will get you downtown pretty quickly from anywhere within Vancouver (15-18 mins max). Transit is pretty bus-oriented, but it's never really been a problem for me. Getting out of downtown might be a problem if you like to hang out past 2am and/or live in the sticks. Not much open 24 hours or really late other than a couple coffee shops and a handful of restaurants. Biking: I don't bike but the city seems fairly bike friendly (and getting better), I believe we have 3 routes now with separated bike lanes downtown. You can bike safely from anywhere within Vancouver. My neighbour bikes to work every day from East Van which probably takes him 25-30 mins each way. Tech Scene: It's alright, but we're working on it. I put together a startup hackathon last month and met a bunch of fellow Vancouver HN users. There are a couple startup incubators here and more coming (I believe), Bootup Labs seems to be the most well known. There are angels, VCs and the like here - but nowhere near the level of SF, NYC, Seattle. Talent: 2 main schools with CS programs nearby (SFU and UBC), but talent seems hard to find - it's here, you just need to look. If you do find it, it can be fairly cheap though. Much much lower than the valley (from what friends have told me), there are no Facebook-like companies driving up salaries here. I'm probably going to get shanked at the next hacker meet up, but you can probably get decent people for $35k/yr (junior) to $70k/yr (senior/leads). A big problem seems to be that you can count 'notable' startups on one hand. There are gaming companies here, both mobile/console and gambling. It's much more relaxed here and people just want to live life well. There are hardcore entrepreneurs and hackers here, but also a lot of wantrepreneurs and people who want to come in at 10, take an hour lunch and leave by 5. Very little of that 'startup culture' you hear so much about in San Francisco. My opinion, but other Vancouverites feel free to criticize or add to this.
- iamclovin 16y agoGreat point about SF being an echo-chamber. I live in Singapore and the burgeoning startup scene here has started to feel like an echo-chamber too.
- jfb 16y agoSan Francisco is an echo chamber in many ways. There are days when it feels less like a city where shit gets done and more like Disneyland for rich white people. That said, it's a pretty great place to live.
- yellowbkpk 16y agoMeanwhile, here in Minneapolis (really could apply to any upper Midwest city like Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, etc.): Pros: - If you like seasons, you get them. - Excellent beer. Many bars. Great nitelife. - Clean. No poop on the streets, even in the worse parts of the city. - Great public transportation (except Milwaukee). - Cheap rent (2BR for $1500 along the river with a view of the skyline) - Many excellent CS departments in-state and in the states surrounding. (UW-Madison, UIUC, UMN) Cons: - Tech scene is slowly simmering. Madison's is growing like a weed, but elsewhere it's quite slow. - Not as much outdoorsey stuff to do as in the Pacific Northwest, but there's still enough to do (skiing, fishing, hiking, biking, etc. -- just not on 14kfoot mountains)
- kgermino 16y agoProbably should put snowy winters under cons too. I'm from Chicago and quite frankly don't think that I could live somewhere without a real winter but I'm fairly certain the rest of the country thinks we're nuts.
- look_lookatme 16y agoWas recently in Minneapolis and can't say enough nice things about it. You could certainly live a nice life there if you had a small shop or are solo/remote (my situation, can't speak to a larger startup). It could even be a great place to live and work in temporarily. However, I did make visit before the winter. Not sure how I'd feel about that aspect.
- jfb 16y agoI concur. I loved living in Minneapolis, and I go back at least yearly. But the winters are awfully long, which has to at least rate a mention as a con. Overall, though, I much preferred Minneapolis to San Francisco from a livability standard. It's also an excellent bike town, much safer and less idiotic than San Francisco.
- showerst 16y ago...and incredible, painful winters. Minneapolis is really really nice... from May to September =).
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- sahillavingia 16y agoWhat are your guys' opinions about LA? Coming from Singapore it's a huge step up, but I'm sure SF is far crazier.
- billpaetzke 16y agoLA is okay. Probably is between 3rd-10th position of tech hubs. If you really like the culture, weather, nightlife, or have ties to the city, then you'll do fine staying. You could probably start a decent company. USC, UCLA, and CalTech have fine CS depts. The entertainment and aerospace industries are strong here. That's why MySpace (originally social for musicians) and SpaceX (a new space-vehicle startup) work well here. I have worked at two companies here (one big, one startup) for four years. Job scene isn't as dense as SF/SV. See for yourself on careers.stackoverflow.com. Do a 40-mile radius search on San Francisco. Then do one for LA. You'll notice that SF has 84 jobs and LA only 9. (For completeness, NYC has 98 jobs, Boston 40, Seattle 20, Chicago 11, Boulder 10, Portland 9, Minneapolis 1, San Diego 1). But I'm having an itch to go hit a home run in SF/SV. Maybe you do, too. If you want to maximize your chance of success, then move to SF/Silicon Valley when you graduate. And do summer internships (or work on your own projects and network) there in the meantime.
- philwelch 16y agoUSC and UCLA have fine CS depts. What about Caltech?
- billpaetzke 16y agoAdded CalTech now. It's much smaller than USC or UCLA. And I know several programmers from USC and UCLA but not CalTech. So that's why I didn't think of it at first.
- lisper 16y agoI lived in LA for 22 years. It grew on me. But LA takes practice. And I never felt as at-home there as I do in the SF Bay area after just four months living up here. SF traffic is NOTHING compared to LA. Traffic in LA can be truly nightmarish, especially on the West Side. An hour to go five miles is not uncommon on certain routes during the rush hour. The entertainment industry dominates the culture. Phoniness is the norm. On the other hand, if you like peeling back the curtain and seeing the gritty reality behind the glitz and glamour there is no place like it. And because LA is crawling with highly talented out-of-work actors, there's really great theatre at very reasonable prices.
- wyclif 16y agoSF streets are pretty disgusting. It's true that there's fecal matter everywhere you find homeless people, which is nearly everywhere in SF. It is not at all uncommon to find a big brownie right in the middle of the sidewalk. The streets and sidewalks in my tiny, obscure East coast village, OTOH, are as clean as they are in Singapore. I don't quite understand why SF doesn't do something about this, as it's a health hazard. Why don't the yuppies, hipsters, scenesters and other trendy rich people care? Do they not walk or bike in SF?
- justinchen 16y agoThey don't want their taxes raised to pay for the clean up :)
- iantimothy 16y agoTo be fair, Singapore doesn't really have high taxes to deal with the cleanups. Our main strategy is to import a lot of low cost labor to do these sort of work.
- jambo 16y agoAnd caning!
- jeffreymcmanus 16y agoQuite untrue. In fact in yesterday's election the citizens of San Francisco voted themselves several new taxes including a $10/vehicle registration fee to pay for street upkeep.
- JoelMcCracken 16y agoPittsburgh is beautiful. It has a decent startup scene and lots of tech talent (pitt, cmu). Rent is extremely cheap here, so you can't get more ramen profetable than here. We also have our own startup incubator, alphalab. Seriously. Pgh has all the qualities needed to become the next major startup community.
- look_lookatme 16y agoMy friends that have gone to CMU all say the same. What are the ideal neighborhoods for someone coming from SF or NYC? I'm thinking with bars and restaurants and a general nightlife-ish, walkable vibe.
- steveklabnik 16y agoThe biggest ones: * Oakland is where Pitt is at. It's got tons of college kids running around everywhere, with tons of bars and places to eat. * Shadyside is where all of those kids go after they graduate. It's where I'm sitting right now. More families, but still a bunch of stuff to do. Can be expensive (oh wait, you're coming from NYC/SF, it's dirt cheap, nevermind) if you don't look around. * CMU is located on the border between Shadyside, Oakland, and Squirrel Hill. * Squirrel Hill is where most CMU students live. It's a very family oriented neighborhood, lots of quiet streets, but still has a quite bustling 'main street.' * The South Side is a bit far from those three neighborhoods, but it's got a _crazy_ nightlife. The number of bars would be illegal if they weren't grandfathered in, no joke. This is where AlphaLab is, along with a bunch of other tech companies, and lots of families, punks, etc. Reminds me of the Mission a bit, though I was only there for a day or two, so that could be a slightly poor characterization. What you have to remember about Pittsburgh is that each neighborhood is a totally viable mini-city. They all have a 'main street' where most of the commerce is, and then housing around it. So there's at least something to do everywhere, though some places are obviously more bustling than others. I've lived here all my life, so if you have any more specific questions, ask away.
- akgerber 16y agoPunks have abandoned the South Side & live in Bloomfield and Lawrenceville now. Both are older Italian neighborhoods. The South Side is full of bros at night. You can seriously buy decent houses for well under $100k.
- psadauskas 16y agoI agree and disagree with him on Boulder (where I live now). I've visited SF and the valley many times, and moved to Boulder from the midwest 4 years ago. A couple of his cons are way out of left field though: The weather: Its never been 10 below in the 4 years I've been here, and only been below zero or single digits at night. Only about one or two days in each of the winter months is it cold, and there's as many winter days with highs in the 60s as there are days below freezing. It's very rarely cold more than a couple days in a row, unlike the midwest winters I'm used to where it won't get above 40 for a month. It'll snow 20" here, and be completely melted 3 days later. But I guess compared to SF and Seattle, he hasn't experienced enough really cold weather to know that what Boulder has isn't cold. Real estate prices/rent is about the same as downtown of any major city not in California. Denver is about 30 minutes up the road, and condos are about the same price. As for getting to Denver, its easy enough, there's an express bus.
- enjo 16y agoI'll second this. I moved to Denver (which is certainly a "real" city) almost 4 years ago. We get a few snow storms a year, and otherwise it's pretty damn nice. January and February can be tough... but that's just cause we're spoiled. Hell it was 65 degrees today and is supposed to be up into the mid 70's this weekend. That's not normal, but it's not exactly abnormal either. I actually agree with a lot that he has to say about Boulder, it's why I live in Denver. It's really a great secret. I can live in a house that's 1000 ft2 (with a yard and everything) within 2 miles of Downtown (11 minute bus ride) for sub-$300k. Try doing that in Seattle or SF:)
- 2arrs2ells 16y agoDenver rent is insanely cheap! I pay something like 30% of what I'd pay in SF to live downtown, within walking distance of Coors Field + tons of great bars and restaurants.
- rdouble 16y agoWhenever someone talks about how dirty SF is, you know they confined themselves to SOMA, TL, the Mission and maybe North Beach. The rest of the city is about as clean as any big city in the US. There's nothing particularly dirty about the Sunset, Richmond, Pac Heights, Cole Valley, Parnassus, Diamond Heights, West Portal, Forrest Hill, Russian Hill, Glen Park, or the other neighborhoods that make up most of San Francisco. In contrast, I now live in NYC and while there are no distinct "human poo" neighborhoods as there are in SF, the entire city is covered with a layer of grime and garbage from Manhattan all the way out to the furthest stops in Brooklyn and Queens. This was simply not the case where I lived in SF, on top of 17th street. The same applies to the weather. Anyone who thinks SF has great weather has never spent much time west of Twin Peaks. It is foggy and cold most of the time.
- jfb 16y agoBoth of these things are true. I work in SOMA and live in Glen Park and the city's dysfunction seems to be strongly correlated to the nice weather.
- geuis 16y agoSF's weather is good when it isn't raining. Man, winter's coming and its going to get cold and raining till March. We're having a few good days of weather left, so enjoy it while you can!
- jeffreymcmanus 16y agoPeople who think that San Francisco weather is terrible are typically from places like Los Angeles (where I'm from) or other places that equate excruciating heat with nice weather. I actually like the cold and rain, and it only lasts for a few months. Put on a dang sweater and man up. It's worth noting here that it was 80 degrees in San Francisco today. In November.
- rdouble 16y agoI'm from Minnesota, and I didn't think the weather in SF was terrible, but I definitely thought it was weird that in SF it would be 80 degrees one day in November and 50 degrees and foggy all summer.
- CharlesPal 16y agoNo talk of Boston and just a mention of New York? It does not make much sense to compair technology/startup cities and totally leave out the East Coast.
- techiferous 16y agoCambridge, Mass is definitely a nerd mecca. There's a lot of technology and startup action over here. And it's a wonderful city to live in (very walkable, nice architecture, low crime, clean, diverse).
- jeffclark 16y ago...and full of damn hipsters, let's be honest. Great place to drink or work until you head back across the river to sleep :)
- CharlesPal 16y agoI totally agree... Especially impressive when you consider the size of Cambridge (~7 sq mi) VS the size of an area like Silicon Valley (~450 sq mi). That's a pretty amazing amount of nerd density.
- davidwparker 16y agoI think that he was just comparing places he's actually lived and worked- which IMO is nice because then I don't feel like he's making stuff up.
- CharlesPal 16y agoVery true, I would like to see the same comparison by someone who has lived and worked on both the East and West Coast.
- ced 16y agoRelated discussion: Ask HN: Best Startup City - Outside the USA? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375
- geuis 16y agoFor folks that are outside of SF or didn't vote, we had a measure up for vote to prevent sitting or lying on public sidewalks. This is principally targeting the homeless problem. Luckily, it passed! Go to this link and go all the way to the bottom. Its item L. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/03/MNNS1G69CV.DTL&type=politics http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/11/03/... Edit Additionally, it looks like Ron Conway was a big contributor to this. http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/San_Francisco_Sit-Lie_Ordinance,_Proposition_L_(November_2010) http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/San_Francisco_Sit-Lie_...
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- klochner 16y agoWas that supposed to be sarcasm? If so, slightly too subtle. If not, wow.
- follower 16y ago> This is principally targeting the homeless problem. Did you miss the word "hiding"? It doesn't seem to be much of a way to "solve it".
- potatolicious 16y agoSeattle has the same problem. We tried to pass a measure to ban "aggressive" panhandling (criteria include talking to people or anything but sitting quietly by the side), which has done nothing to curb the homelessness problem downtown. The city government has also aggressively harassed the homeless in parts of downtown where they congregate, displacing them further. They then had the gall to proclaim proudly that homelessness had gone down, since their yearly headcount (of the popular spots, of course) decreased. All of this has served to cut the homeless off from the services that help them, and displaced them further afield.
- benatkin 16y agoI live in Boulder. These two things really hit me: > I really yearned for hardcore technology while I was in Boulder. A lot of the technology scene was very much focused on creating consumer applications. I’m a big infrastructure, big data, big scale kind of guy and often felt out of place in that scene. I concur, except for the part about feeling out of place. I'd rather feel out of place more often so I can get more exposure to "big data, big scale". > I didn’t like Boulder at all due to the cold climate and small size of the city. I've heard this before, but hearing it from Joe Stump (the sentiment, not the reasons given which I'm well aware of) feels different. Not sure how I'll feel when it sinks in.
- nikcub 16y agoSeattle reminds me of London. Sure the weather sucks and it is raining all the time, but the people make up for it by being awesome to each other. People in sunny cities tend to be dicks[1] Some of my fav cities in the world are those I least expected to be awesome. [1] not a scientific study but exhibit A: Los Angeles
- potatolicious 16y agoHave you heard of the Seattle Freeze? Basically it goes like this: the locals here (people who grew up/went to school here) are incredibly resentful of "transplants" who came from elsewhere, mostly to work in the tech industries here. We're blamed for anything from turning Seattle from a sleepy laid-back town into a monstrosity of big-city lights (it... isn't), to raising housing prices, to making everything suck more, to driving out the local music scene, etc etc (some of which have merit). In any case, Seattle's social scene is almost comically obviously divided into locals vs. transplants. I've been here for over a year, have made many friends, and only one of which is a local Seattleite. Transplants are forced to keep to themselves, and I'll just add a slight note that the vast majority of the transplant population is male (software, surprise!) People who visit Seattle often mistake our distant politeness and geniality as friendliness. It isn't. People will give you directions to the bus stop, we'll tell you the best places to get coffee, and we probably won't yell at you for cutting us off on the highway (much), but this is really just politeness, not friendliness. Culturally speaking people form social circles early on in life (high school or latest, college) and do not appear at all interested in expanding them. This is in contrast to some other cities I've lived in where everyone seems constantly eager to meet new people. It's also one of the more racially homogenous places I've seen (granted, my history is in Vancouver and Toronto, where at last count half the population was immigrant). Good Japanese food? Few and far between, pricey to boot. Good Chinese food? Does not exist. Good Indian food? Maybe one place waaaaay over on the east side, and this is despite having MS and Amazon's Indian engineer population feeding the demand. Good food is basically limited to "pretentious fusion attempt" and "Northwest seafood". Ethnic foods? Fuggetaboutit. You have greasy stuff only a notch or two above Panda Express, and that's about it. The food scene in this city sucks. Transportation? It's one of the few cities I've lived in (and I've lived in some shitty towns in the middle of nowhere, Ontario) where living in one of the central neighborhoods (Capitol Hill, for reference) makes me feel legless. The bus system sucks, the light rail is pathetic for any use except getting to the airport, and the "streetcar" can be beaten by a granny on a bicycle. Couple this with the fact that Seattle has no centralized city planning (it's a very loose collection of neighborhoods) and getting around without a car is a gigantic pain. Hell, it took me 45 minutes this afternoon to travel 1.0 miles on the bus (one of the most frequent routes, in fact). Mass transit effectively does not exist, and even when the government occasionally has a bright idea about effective, fast mass transit to finally connect all of the neighborhoods, the class-warfare-happy upper-middles on the east side are quick to attempt to torpedo anything. Our current initiative to make light rail finally useful, and for the first time get an effective mass commute option in the city is currently being fought tooth and nail by rich homeowners and builders fearing the "undesirables" will be able to move about too easily into their gated meccas. Yeah, the summers are gorgeous, the beer scene is delicious, the availability of the great outdoors is incredible... but overall I find this city to be incredibly insular, completely antisocial, stuffed to the brim with pretention (yuppie urban high-rise style and pretentious suburban rich style all rolled up into one, oh boy!). The only good thing about this damned place is the employment. So, if you want to make a fair bit of money, enjoy the weather, and hermit up writing code all day (or having beers with other coders... or having coffee with other coders... or going to dinner with other coders... or hitting the club with other coders, full of coders dropping mad dollaz trying to get laid...), come right on in. I'll even buy you a beer and start a pool on how long it takes for you to run screaming out of this town. The current average is 2 years. Note: This is a very harsh post. But, if you are married (or seriously involved), ready to settle down in a nice, peaceful suburb with good schools, Seattle's not such a bad place. There is so much nature around for you and the kiddos - I wouldn't mind growing up here at all. If you are however young, possibly single, and looking to meet interesting folk from diverse backgrounds and enjoy the urban lifestyle... consider carefully.
- thecombjelly 16y agoMy city doesn't suck (Houghton, Michigan). Granted it isn't startup world... But we do have a good University that brings in the nerds. And it's awesome because it isn't too big (only around 7,000), and it's been listed as one of the 100 best small towns in America. It's for hackers like me that don't like lots of people and like to be outdoors a lot (and don't mind 250 inches of snow a year!). The city has many beautiful remnants of the copper boom and it is well kept up. Homeless aren't a problem because you just can't survive the winter without a home.
- kd0amg 16y agoAnd no place I've seen matches Houghton on cost of living. The linked article says $1700 for a 2-bedroom apartment. My friends and I rent a 5-bedroom house for less than that.
- m0th87 16y agoNickpick: Seattle IMO actually has a pretty disappointing music scene, especially with respect to indie music. Presumably all of the artists moved out as the cost of living increased. But the awesome beer makes up for it.
- 2arrs2ells 16y agoNitpick^2: I don't think the Seattle beer scene is actually that good (granted, I live in Denver). Red Hook, Mac & Jacks and Pyramid are all decent. Ranier Beer is some of the most foul stuff I've ever tasted. Am I missing places? I think most of the good beer in Seattle comes from Portland or elsewhere.
- WhooHoo 16y agoHale's Ales up in Ballard is pretty good, the Elysian breweries brew their own, Scuttlebutt out of Everett is pretty good, the Georgetown brewery makes some good stuff, Lazy Boy brewing also out of Everett ain't bad. There are also small breweries that don't bottle (like Mac and Jacks) and you have to get them on tap at the famous beer bars like Uber, Brouwers, or Beveridge Place. There are plenty of places to look up more interesting beers in Seattle, the beers you named are just the tip of the iceberg.
- jscore 16y agoI have a love/hate relationship with SF after living here for many many years since 2000. I'm from NYC originally (and finally back) and here are my thoughts after shuttling back and forth for many years. PROS 1. It's probably the safest, relatively big (~ 1M) city that I've ever been to. And I've traveled a lot throughout US and the world. If something bad happens to you in SF, you've really, really should hone your street smarts. And no, Tenderloin is not dangerous at all as I've lived a couple of blocks from there for few years. 2. Probably the only other city (NYC is the other) where you truly have a diverse selection of food. That's pretty impressive for such a small city. 3. It's probably one of the most beautiful cities I've ever been to. I love the rolling hills and some great views especially of GG bridge and Bay Bridge. I wanted to move to SF for a long time, and it took a while for me to sink in that I was actually living in SF. CONS 1. It's a city of wannabes. Basically everyone lives in the future (they "wanna/hoping to" have a startup, or "do art" etc). Ambitious people are good, but I feel SF definitely goes a bit far in this regard. For startups, it's due to the availability of venture capital in the city, where you don't need to be profitable from day one. In comparison, New York is about hustling and making money FROM DAY 1, not tomorrow, not in few years. 2. The bohemian/alternative/smug feel of the city. South Park had a funny episode about this. For example, people drive Prius in order to "show off" how green and environmentally friendly they are. Some of my good friends (non hipsters or art people, etc) only eat organic and only shop at Trader's Joe or Whole Foods. Apparently Safeway is not good enough. Organic is good, but try going to a restaurant with someone who is stubbornly organic about food content there, and will refuse to go. I mean come on, you're not gonna die if you eat non-organic once in a while!! 3. It's too laid back. If you love New York or East Coast in general, I think you'll find the slowed pace of the city irritating. In some ways this is a consequence of (1). 4. Nobody grows up in the city. This is a big one. I've seen some girls who are 35 and still wear clothing that a early 20s girl would wear. Same for guys. You can be 40+ or 50 and still live with roommates, etc. I've always felt that a cutoff for living with roommates is like 30 or maybe even early 30s, but 40+ is a bit too much. 5. The weather plain sucks. You have windy/sunny-turning-to-foggy weather (65-55F) pretty much all year except about 2-3 times a year when a heatwave (75F+) lasting about 3-4 days comes in and you can finally walk around with a t-shirt at night. There's really two seasons: dry and wet. I respect East Coast's weather much more because I know that in June I will be rocking a t-shirt all day and night and don't need to carry a jacket "just in case". Mark Twain said the coldest winter he'd ever been to was a summer in SF. SF's summer months are typically the coldest in the whole country. 6. Don't get me started on dating. As a guy, I still stick to my theory that it's probably one of the WORST cities to hook up I've ever been to. Most of the places are just full of guys which makes sense since West Coast has statistically more single guys than single girls. East Coast is a bit better in this regard. I always told myself if ever I move back, and that's a big if, I'll have to be married or have a serious girlfriend. And if you're a girl, don't get too excited; I've been told from female friends of mine that the guys are no prize either. 7. Pretentious Hipsters. Need I say more?
- ciscoriordan 16y agoFor another city to compare, I've spent the last two summers in Cambridge/Boston: Pros - Decent public transportation - Huge college talent pool to draw from - Startups in the area tend to come out of area colleges - Recruiting from those colleges is probably the primary draw for the big tech company offices in the area - Slightly cheaper rent than SF, with much cheaper options accessible by public transportation - Home prices are way cheaper than the SF Bay Area - Great nightlife, successful sports teams if you're into that - There's a 200 year old frigate in the harbor that used to do battle with pirates and there are lots of cool old buildings all around - The area is becoming more startup friendly. There are resources like TechStars and the Cambridge Innovation Center that weren't around a decade ago. Cons - Annoying Puritan laws that aren't enforced evenly - Cold, long winters - Hot summers, though this past summer wasn't especially hot - Not much of a startup culture compared to other cities. Other than the students, people are pretty complacent in general in Boston/New England - Most people in the area are from there originally or went to school there, more-so than other cities - Small bubble of startups working on tools for academics - Parking and driving are kind of a nightmare. Lanes disappear, Massachusetts drivers are super-aggressive, lanes are really skinny, etc.. Neutral - Not as diverse as other cities, especially outside of the colleges - Startups in the area are more focused on making money right away
- mkramlich 16y ago> There's a 200 year old frigate in the harbor that used to do battle with pirates and there are lots of cool old buildings all around I didn't realize the music industry was that old.
- CharlesPal 16y agoStay here long enough and you begin to enjoy the cold winters and hot summers... At that point you'll become a super-aggressive driver, focused on making money right away and someone who likes Puritan laws that aren't enforced evenly.
- ynniv 16y agoYou never "become a super aggressive driver"... Everyone else starts driving slower! I was recently in Atlanta, and got the distinct impression that my diving was no longer "normal".
- m0nastic 16y agoI'll throw in my comments about Washington D.C./Northern Virginia. I've lived here about ten years (first five in Northern Virginia, the past five in downtown DC) Pros: 1.) The tech community here is actually quite good. It definitely feels like it's gotten better since I've lived here. There's no shortage of smart folks working on cool things, even if they are a little more spread out geographically. 2.) While I wouldn't say it's "recession-proof", the area is certainly way less effected by the economy. You can attribute that to the preponderance of government and government-related industries here. 3.) Public transportation is mediocre. Some people think it's great, some people think it's awful. I would say it's somewhere in between. If you live downtown you can get around most places on the Metro. Northern Virginia is accessible out a little ways to Arlington, then it gets sparse. 4.) There's a lot to see downtown if friends or family come to visit. The museums are nice (and free), but I think after a couple months here you'll have had your fill. 5.) You're fairly close to a lot of other places. NYC is a four hour train ride (or a $20 bus ride), Philly is even closer. You have three airports in the immediate area, so you can get to most other places directly. Cons: 1.) It's really expensive. I moved here from Northern California and was dumbfounded that rent was as expensive here (without the benefit of living near the beach). Like most places, you can find things for cheap if you're willing to commute (or if you live in DC, you can find things for cheap if your willing to live in one of the not-good parts of the city, of which there are many). 2.) Food isn't particularly good. Which isn't to say that there aren't good restaurants, but there's a huge drop-off after you get down from uber-expensive. Oh, and there isn't a single good pizza place in a 30-mile radius of the city. 3.) There is a giant preponderance of government-related folks. This isn't a con for everyone, but anywhere downtown is filled with lobbyists. On a related note, it's also a little weird to live somewhere that is so caught up with politics where your vote doesn't matter (we have no representation in Congress). Local politics is a cesspool, made worse by the fact that DC is cuckolded by Congress. 4.) Some may disagree, but I think the weather here is terrible. It's oppressively hot and humid in the summer (actually four or five months) and then cold and gross in the winter. 5.) If you live in DC, you are relegated to a few neighborhoods that aren't awful. It's changing over time (even just in the time I've lived here), but as to whether that's an improvement is open to debate. If you're talking Northern Virginia, you're pretty much limited to Arlington if you want a semblance of other people. As soon as you start to go west, it's all strip-malls and suburbs. I've been trying to leave for about nine of the ten years I've lived here, but I know plenty of people who like it here. If you wind up in one of the up-and-coming neighborhoods and meet some good folks, you can enjoy yourself here. Just don't try and look for good pizza.
- dshep 16y agoI live in SF currently, and used to live in Portland. It's a lot easier to find work in the bay area, but I think if you can find a good job in Portland or make your own, it's the nicer place. If I had to put down roots somewhere it'd be there.
- bdb27 16y agoI'll throw in my $.02 about San Diego. I've lived here for about 6 years. I'll try by topic since most of these can be good or bad depending on your point of view. Tech Community: I think the tech community here has potential and could become more significant in the future. There is a regular Hacker News meetup, Function Programming meetup, and SHDH. I'll let other speak about the startup scene... Universities: SDSU and UCSD are the two major Universities down here for tech. UCSD has a lot of good programs in many engineering disciplines and produces a lot of talent. SDSU also has a respectable program in CS. Weather: There is a single season here and it is summer. Though it comes in different shades, it is always summer to some degree. The nicest time of year is typically Fall and Winter. Summer is cool with an onshore breeze but the city is busy with tourists. Jobs: There are a lot of jobs here in government, education, biotech, and telecom. Goverment jobs can be either as a government employee or contractor. Mostly DoD related. e.g. Navy, Army, Homeland Security, Coast Guard, etc. I see so much bad software in DoD that it seems ripe for disruption. A talented startup that has the right connections and can leverage lean technologies could put some large high dollar organizations to shame I think. Problem is all the bureaucracy it takes to develop software for the DoD. Food and Beverage Scene: The food scene here is good I'd say. It's not SF good, but there are lot of options at a reasonable price. Beer scene here is also good. We have a lot of local breweries that have a presence at any respectable bar or restaurant down here. Activities: SD is one of the most active cities I have seen. With the nice weather all the time there is no shortage of things to do outside. Just pick your poison here. Bike, golf, motocross, run, skateparks, stick and ball sports, surf, swim, etc. Cost of Living: Cost of living here is relatively high. It's cheaper than SF and NY though but probably more expensive than other places mentioned. There is a good variety of housing in different neighborhoods at various price points though. Military town: There is a notable military presence here. Between the Navy at Coronado and the Marines at Camp Pendleton your gonna cross path with marines and sailors regularly.
- maxawaytoolong 16y agoThis list was very startup-bro oriented, as are most lists like this. Startups, Computer Science departments, hiking, beer are the axes of importance. What's interesting is what's left out: can I meet good friends? get laid? find a wife? etc.
- cullenking 16y agoCan't remember where the article is now, but apparently SF has the highest ratio of single straight women to single straight men in the entire US. However, it also ranks as one of the most difficult to date in, because no one steps up to the plate. And please, don't discount the beer. I'd cry if I lived in a city where I couldn't get a good beer.
- WildUtah 16y agoJust the opposite. SF (and Silicon Valley) has the highest ratio of single straight men to single straight women in the country. It's a very, very difficult place to date as a straight man. And the abundance of male techy immigrants means that women who are attracted to geeky men are the most in demand and most likely to be already taken. If you're single (and male) and you'd like to be paired up, make it happen before or after your time in SF.
- cullenking 16y agoInteresting - I must have gotten it backwards in my head. Maybe it was New York?
- davidw 16y agoSomething that hits you as you get older is "how about having kids and a family?", which he doesn't consider at all. Fair enough, but sooner or later it does become important for many people. I've only lived in SF and Portland, not Seattle or Boulder. I think it'd be fine to have a family in Portland - like he said, the prices aren't so high, and it's got some nice neighborhoods where kids would be ok. My guess is that Boulder is small enough that that holds true as well. SF on the other hand requires some serious cash if you want to have a larger home, and I'm a bit less sure about schools there. Also, when I was in SF, it seemed very much a place for 20-somethings. "Normal people" who don't pull in major cash tend to drift elsewhere if they want to be able to afford a more or less normal house, which skews the demographics further. In the end, I didn't like that very much... here in Padova, one rubs shoulders with both wealthy, middle class and the less well off, young and old, which feels about right to me. Same in Portland, depending on where you go. SF was very much a bubble in many ways.
- baddox 16y agoIt's probably not wise to completely trust a single person's impressions of an entire city, but this really reinvigorated my desire to get out of the rural Midwest and get a job somewhere where things are happening. Also, this article opened my eyes to Portland and Boulder, which the author made sound extremely appealing to me. Lastly and incidentally, that's my favorite kind of masturbation.
- mcxx 16y agoCan someone please write the pros and cons for NY and LA?
- iuguy 16y agoIn the hope of it being of use to someone I'll share a bit on London, Istanbul and Reading. London is the central hub for everything in the UK. It has a weekday population of around 13 million and weekend population of around 9 million (due to commuters who stay during the week). I read somewhere that if London was a country on it's own it'd have the world's 7th biggest economy (although this was before the banking crisis). PROS You can do anything in the London. Seriously, anything. You can eat any food from anywhere in the world. Drink anything from anywhere in the world. Want to go skiing? It's about £90 to go to Switzerland from Stanstead airport. Alternatively you can go to Milton Keynes (about 45 minutes away) and go to the indoor ski slope with real snow. Music, theatre, art, culture, history. Everything and I mean everything comes to or goes through London. It's fairly safe for the most part, as long as you avoid the trouble spots. Almost every large business in the UK, and most European/International businesses has a headquarters or office in London. The transport system, despite our gripes is awesome compared to almost anywhere in the US (except from what I've heard about New York). You can hire bikes by the hour to ride around London. Just walk up to the bike, put some money in, ride off on the cycle routes and drop it off at another lock. The hacker scene is great. Hackspace, DC4420 and OWASP run regular meetings. There's a 2600 chapter for the kids. Imperial College and UCL are great Universities to draw talent from. Oxford is an hour away, Cambridge a little more, Royal Holloway about the same. All have great graduates with various specialisms. CONS It's rammed. Everything is busy. It's ridiculously expensive. Expect to pay a fortune if you want to live in zone 1 or 2. There's a bubble a bit like SF. You don't really know if what you're doing is innovative or just masturbation. While there's investment around, you'll have to look for it and it's not on the same scale as in the US. Having said that you're probably in the best place in Europe to find angels, given the amount of money floating around. Reading Reading is largely a commuter town about 20 minutes from London Paddington. It takes about the same time to get to London Paddington from Reading as it does from London Waterloo. PROS You're not in London. You don't have to deal with all the London set if you don't want to but it's close enough to get in when you want to. Oxford is about an hour away. Holloway is about an hour away. UWE and Bristol Uni are an hour and a half away. You're in what's known as 'Thames Silicon Valley'. Everything's cheaper than London, it's easier to reach London and there are heaps of smaller startups around here. There's a good but significantly smaller tech scene. There's a local LUG, various small hacker meetups, but most go to London because it's so close. Most acts pass through. In Reading I've seen Frankie Boyle, Massive Attack and a few other groups but also a lot of up and coming acts. Reading Beer Festival is probably marginally better (but a bit smaller) than the Great British Beer Festival in London. The Reading Ale and Jazz Festival (RAAJ) is also great fun. Loads of cycling routes and great rolling countryside make this great. You can actually ride to London if you wanted to over the National Cycle Network. CONS It feels like a suburb of London. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Reading Uni's undergrad CS course doesn't seem to be that great. It's cheaper but less connected to the money in London. If you're looking to self-fund Reading is a great place to grow. Not so much if you're looking for external funding. Microsoft's main campus is in Reading, as is Oracle and a few others. That may seem a good thing but they're more or less constantly recruiting, making for competition in the employer department. It's a small city/large town, so while there are some great places to eat/drink etc. there's a lot of crap too, so nights out tend to involve visiting the places you like, rather than something new all the time. Also London looms on the horizon and tends to pull you in now and again. This may be a good rather than bad thing, but it may make you pine for London. Istanbul As the world's only transcontinental city, Istanbul is truly where east meets west. On the eastern coast of Europe and the Western coast of Asia Minor, Istanbul is awash with money, although it lacks the investment infrastructure of London. PROS There is nowhere in eastern europe or asia minor other than Istanbul. All the money in Turkey goes there. It's probably the biggest thing until you hit Vienna in the west, Tehran in the east, Moscow to the north or Abu Dhabi to the south. Great cuisine, nightlife (you go out on Friday evening and come home around 11am Sunday morning without stopping) and an improving public transport network make it a great place to live. Most large bands stop by Istanbul on world tours. The history, culture, beautiful skylines (east looking west, west looking east) and architecture (contrast the skyscrapers with the minarets, Hagia Sophia and the Blue Mosque) are unlike anything anywhere else in the world. It's completely unique. The people are the most amazingly friendly people you'll ever meet. Expect unparalleled levels of service compared to anywhere in the west. Turks are incredibly friendly people, it's toned down a bit in Istanbul but it's still way friendlier than London. If you speak some Turkish it goes from being a beautiful but slightly scary city into being an absolutely incredible amazing place. The cultural customs may look a bit odd at first (as it does with any big city outside of the Anglosphere) but if you make the effort you'll be rewarded in spades. There's a ridiculously high ratio of beautiful to ugly women (and men if that's your kind of thing). Head up to Nisantasi and watch the world go by with some Turkish Coffee. The Princes' Islands are a great getaway more or less within the city limits. Buyukada (Big Island) is particularly stunning. CONS Turkish politics are a very complex beast. Never get involved. There's marches, protests, violence and of course the occasional bombing. Because Istanbul is the centre of the Turkish universe, everything happens here, including the bad. The same goes for football unfortunately. As a city that knows it's the centre of the Turkish universe, it's so far up it's own arse it's unbelievable. In addition to the great, expect levels of pretentiousness that exceed London, especially amongst the 'sonradan gorme' set. There's not much outside of Istanbul on anywhere near the same scale. Having said that check out Anatolia - Cappadocia, Bodrum, Antalya are all amazing. There's a particular case of style over substance. Restaurants look amazing, have amazing service but when you want a rum, you're going to get Bacardi. If you want a Whisky, the best you'll get is Chivas Regal or Jack Daniels. Don't expect a great choice of beer. They have both kinds in most places - Efes and Tuborg. Imported Alcohol costs a fortune. While Raki is great, Turkish wine generally isn't. Avoid Turkish spirits other than Raki. Turkish Vodka and Gin are terrible. If you integrate into Turkish culture, the act of keeping up appearances can be quite stressful. It's all about wearing the right clothes, going to the right places and it's pretty sickening. It's not just for the upper classes, it permeates through a large part of the class structure. Things are generally cheaper than most European countries, but are prone to currency fluctuations. Turkey is not in the EU, and while some of the EU directives have been implemented laws are more flexible than in Europe. There is a degree of corruption in some places, but not in others. Navigating it and know where bribes are needed and where not can be difficult. It tends not to be a case of handing over envelopes filled with cash as much as bringing a bottle of 21 year old Scotch to the meeting as a gift for the decision maker. In this respect elements of Turkish customs, relationships and things that elsewhere could be seen as bribes can get a little muddy for yabancis.
- igrekel 16y agoThe comments about Portland OR really remind me of my own experience with spending time there. It really was the first time I was visiting a place and think "I'd really like to live here!". What really sold me was the quality of the food available for a city of that size. How walkable the place is. How friendly the people I met in the street were. How going out in Portland was fun. And the scenery around the city is just amazing. Plus it really seemed like a good place to raise a family (The latest criteria I have) because it was generally inexpensive and has all the community advantages of a smaller town.
- rdmlx 16y agoHow does Austin, TX compare?
- danecjensen 16y agoI'll throw in my 2 cents about Austin. I've lived in SF and now I live in Austin. Austin Pros: -Great Food, you can't find the type of food you get in austin anywhere else. Great BBQ, the best tacos, tons of food trailers and Tex-Mex -Great Beer. -beautiful down to earth women (I feel like this is SF's big problem it was extremely hard to meet women I was interested in) -night life is amazing (most people in Austin don't work they just party) -very bike friendly...you can bike the whole city in 30 mins (15 late at night). Austin is pretty flat (unlike SF) so biking is just so enjoyable. -There's rivers and lakes and hiking right in the city -The cost a living really can't be beat (cheap rent, cheap food, cheap beer). I can go to a bar and get a beer for $2. -UT is right here (I don't know anything about there CS dept, but I think they have some pretty good grad school depts) -THE WEATHER its almost always sunny. It gets hot in the summer but everywhere has great AC so you don't feel it. It's actually great to feel the heat and then be able to relax with AC. I prefer the weather here to SF where at least in the city its almost always a little rainy and cold. -Great Airport (flys jetblue and southwest) and great public transit (even though you don't need because biking is so great) -If you like music theres no place better -SXSW is awesome every year -no state income tax! Cons: -Tech Scene is super small (trying to change that) -lots of hipsters (which is good and bad) -I wish it were a little bigger -no big mountains or ocean