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Second Canadian 'missing' in China

138 points by rgbrenner 8y ago

RidingPegasus 8y ago
Outline for us Indochina types: https://outline.com/qUJvaJ https://outline.com/qUJvaJ Quite surprised Canada has gotten itself into this considering the potential for escalation which is now playing out. A "NGO worker", possibly of natsec value and now another Canadian national. What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty? Watching the US and China duke it out in a trade war is somewhat in other countries interest economically, high profile arrests to use as bargaining chips is a risky business and the canucks seem to have thrown themselves right in the midst of it. To add to the absurdity the EU is pushing ahead with maintaining the Iran deal and are indicating their multinationals will continue doing business despite US sanctions.
- ahmedalsudani 8y ago
  Canada has an extradition agreement with the US. The Canadian government has a duty to uphold its end, which means arrest the individual when the US requests it and investigate the merits of the case. The Justice Department would do the same, though I'm sad to say, as a Canadian, that our prosecutors in Canada seem less interested in high-level white collar crime. (Yes, less interested than their American counterparts, believe it or not.)
  - kannanvijayan 8y ago
    I agree with this perspective, with the addendum that the US president's statements might end up working against the prosecutors requesting extradition. It raises the real possibility that Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations as opposed to the legal facts surrounding the foundation of the extradition request - an argument I would expect her lawyers to seize upon. Before the statement by Trump, I was expecting the extradition request being granted. After the statement by Trump, I am more expecting it to be rejected. It is an unfortunate circumstance that Canada's implementation of its laws (specifically extradition laws) has run afoul of China's sensitivities and resulted in what seems to be retaliatory behavoiur. However it would be quite devastating if those considerations factored into our implementation of our laws. Canada should do this by the book, and it seems it will.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations Unlike in China, Canadian and American courts are fiercely independent of the executive.
      - paraditedc 8y ago
        I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent. Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court? Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case? Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as answers. Now I have a better understanding of how things work in the US.
        wisdomoftheages 8y ago
        The executive nominates judges, but they hold tenure for life and after confirmation operate with complete independence as a separate branch of government with their own budget etc. The Supreme Court is also irrelevant to this because they do not initiate investigations, they do not oversee prosecutors, and they do not administer the justice system. They only hear cases about Constitutional issues - not criminal issues, so unless there's a constitutional dispute a case has no chance of reaching them. Judges in general do not oversee or initiate prosecutions, U.S. attorneys do. They're also appointed by the executive, but they operate independently and while, subject to Congressional oversight, he can fire some of them (but not the permanent civil servants who are the bulk of the staff), he cannot directly order them to do anything. In any case, an investigation of this complexity almost certainly started under Obama, just because they tend to take many years to reach the stage where charges are filed. Trump frequently claims to have powers that he does not have. He has said many times that he is going to do something only to find that he cannot actually do it, and so it hasn't been done.
        wybiral 8y ago
        Trump says a lot of things but the system is actually more balanced than the power-play media show makes it seem.
  - gcb0 8y ago
    the world doesn't work like that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik power and situation dictates how laws, specially from international treaties, are upheld.
    - ahmedalsudani 8y ago
      [Downvotes for my parent are unwarranted.] It would be naive to believe politics/geopolitics plays no role in the justice system; it would be equally naive to believe rule of law is a sham. I am an immigrant from a place where the legal code is largely a set of tools and pretexts for the powerful. I can assure you that the rule of law is more than just a phrase thrown around by our politicians.
      - tinza123 8y ago
        Not according to Trump tho.
  - RidingPegasus 8y ago
    The US has a long history of refusing extradition requests by allies despite overwhelming evidence. It's become a one way street. The UK has blocked extradition to the US before even though the guilt is assured[0], the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_government_blocks_extradition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_governme...
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison Willfully violating sanctions is a serious crime.
      - lechiffre10 8y ago
        Sanctions imposed by the U.S that hold no merit according to WTO or International law aren't even legal and are in fact considered an act of war. The only crime committed here is by the U.S.
        briandon 8y ago
        Meng's arrest is for actions she allegedly took to help Iran evade sanctions years ago, during the period in which U.N. sanctions on Iran were in force. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-unofficial-skycom-allegedly-used-to-break-sanctions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-...
        sonnyblarney 8y ago
        The US sanctions limiting export of US tech to Iran have nothing to do with the WTO or 'International Law'. Meng has apparently comitted a serious crime according to US law by exporting US-made tech to Iran. If this is proven to be true, she's clearly violating the law, and surely knowingly so.
      - RidingPegasus 8y ago
        UN sanctions were lifted on 16 January 2016. The US unilaterally decided in May this year they want to pull out of that agreement. The EU is still pushing ahead to have their largest companies trading with Iran despite American protestations. We both know nothing will happen to Daimler or Societe General execs.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty?" Justice? Transparency? Rule of law? Freedom of conscience and expression? 'Doing business with Iran' is not what she was arrested for - she was arrested for proving tech made in the USA to Iran, which is definitely a different thing. Grated it was very low tech.
  - 0xb33fdead 8y ago
    Okay, hold up. "grated it was very low tech"; where did you learn about this (or is this an opinionated downplay)?
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      The tech she exported was HP gear - I'm not aware of anything specifically that HP make that is particularly high tech.
  - RidingPegasus 8y ago
    > Crown counsel told a Friday bail hearing in B.C. Supreme Court in Vancouver Friday that Meng is "charged with conspiracy to defraud multiple international institutions" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing-huawei-cfo-1.4936150 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing... Do you foresee extradition requests for EU executives doing business with Iran? https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how-will-it-work/a-45647007 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how...
    - wisdomoftheages 8y ago
      The crime is not trading with Iran, the crime is defrauding the US financial system in order to do it. For some reason, this is framed as though Huawei is accused of trading with Iran completely independently of the United States. That's not the case at all.
      - RidingPegasus 8y ago
- wisdomoftheages 8y ago
  The idea that Meng was arrested as part of a ploy in the 'trade war' is completely unfounded. These investigations take years and are initiated by the independent justice system. Trump can run his mouth off as much as he likes, but the U.S. system is not structured like China and the executive does not have supreme authority to direct arrests and prosecutions.
jiveturkey 8y ago
canada had to have seen this coming.
- tjpnz 8y ago
  Canada was fulfilling an extradition treaty it has with the United States. It really had no say in the matter. This should be of surprise to nobody.
  - xyzzy_plugh 8y ago
    No, Canada had a say. It's a card like any other. Comply with the treaty or not. There's no clear answer. What happened here is clearly a choice officials weighed in on.
fatjokes 8y ago
The US has played Canada. They request this, Canada performs the arrest, Trump plays good cop ("I'll intervene if I have to"), and China can't retaliate against the US but can take it out on Canada. I'm sure Trump is giddy given how much he dislikes Trudeau.
- giarc 8y ago
  I don't believe Canada was played. I doubt she would have ever taken a flight through the USA and therefore this was probably their only chance to get her.
  - RidingPegasus 8y ago
    The sealed indictment for her arrest was 4 months ago on Aug 22, she has traveled through numerous countries including Canada in that time. The arrest came only hours after US/China trade talks finished, it's also unusual in that it's an individual rather than the company being taken to court. She's also the CFO of the world's 2nd biggest smartphone manufacturer that just overtook Apple. Decide for yourself.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      If this is true, it really sheds light on this because it would indicate the arrest was political. Given the situation, I actually doubt it. I don't think this is Trump et. al. throwing a curve ball, I think this is the Feds just doing their job with bad timing.
      - RidingPegasus 8y ago
        At the same moment the President is sitting down with Xi discussing trade government agents are making moves to arrest an incredibly high profile Chinese figure and everyone seems to think it's a coincidence? China has an extensive history of politically motivated trials when there is foreign relation disputes between countries. They barely hide it. What's interesting here is the US doing the same thing back to them.
ralph84 8y ago
I have little doubt both of these guys are spies. A guy working for an NGO that does "crisis research" and a guy leading tours in North Korea. LOL. Any country with sufficiently advanced counter-intelligence has a list of spies operating on their soil that they monitor and keep in reserve for when it's politically favorable to round them up.
- mywtfmp3 8y ago
  1. Canada doesn't spy China. They cannot be spies. 2. China is an authoritarian state. The two Canadian are innocent. 3. I have made my mind before reading the article.
  - lyrachord 8y ago
    The only point: because U are nothing. The Canada court and Trump know nothing about U.
- throwawa485 8y ago
  I totally agree. Or at the very least, assests to spies. China knew about them but let them operate, since known spies are better than unknown ones. I mean, since everyone is already jumping to conclusions with no proof, this seems just as valid.
KaoruAoiShiho 8y ago
Is this really retaliation for Meng? Wow that's incredibly artless and ham-fisted if true.
- tinza123 8y ago
  I agree it is out of the blue. But defending is normally lacking preparation and elegance than offending especially for sudden atracks, just like in real fight.
- gpm 8y ago
  All evidence points towards it being so. The first Canadian detained this time was a diplomat on a leave of absence from the foreign service [0]. As non politically neutral as you can get without seriously violating diplomatic protocol. China has a history of detaining people over political issues like this. The last time (2014) we (Canada) were considering extraditing a spy to the US they arrested two random Canadians and held them for half a year and 2 years [1]. As a Canadian I certainly hope that the only reaction by the Canadian government to this will be sanctions and cooling of relationships. We should not give into this bullying. Having a totalitarian state behind you should not make you above the law. People who chose to visit foreign states have to accept the risk that they will be subject to unjust laws. [0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kovrig-detained-china-tuesday-1.4940725 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kovrig-detained-china-tuesd... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/world/canada/canadian-couple-china-detention.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/world/canada/canadian-cou...
- lvs 8y ago
  Authoritarian governments are rarely accused of being artful.
str33t_punk 8y ago
China is making themselves look horrible here. Ms. Meng has a proper reason for being arrested (the allegations are that she committed fraud to bypass US sanctions against Iran and sell them US tech by lying about HuaWei and SkyComs involvement to HSBC). There will be a trial, this investigation has been happening for years, and it is by the Justice Department, not a request from Trump (who seems to have been caught surprised by the move). Canada didn't do anything, they are simply honoring their extradition treaties. In contrast, China is just throwing a fit in response and arresting random Canadians on trumped up charges. These are clearly politically motivated (China had threatened Canada with 'consequences' -- the timing is way too suspect here). We have been given no reason why they have been detained, and there are no court hearings or anything -- they have just been 'disappeared'. With this move, China has shown how authoritarian and anti business they are. No justice department, no investigation. These are simply political hostages. Further more, it is completely spineless that they are going after the, less powerful, Canadian nationals, and not Americans.
- hucxsz 8y ago
  How did you come to a conclusion that randomly arrested two people? Double standard?
  - nabla9 8y ago
    Different systems and real differences. China does not have the rule of law or separation of powers like western countries have. In the west it's not easy for the executive branch to interfere with individual cases. US or Canada executive branch can't just tell justice department to arrest someone. In China that's possible and common.
    - latch 8y ago
      > China does not have the rule of law A quick look at Wiki suggest that there's at least some aspects of rule of law in China (1) - although with some defects. I don't have the background to compare these defects with those of any other country (like the US's high incarceration rate (in general, and of minorities specifically)). I have lived a few years in China and Hong Kong and know a few lawyers and accountants born/working there. This experience has left me with a generally positive outlook. I always try to keep in mind that my experience is narrow, but, sadly, people often have absolute opinions with even less experience, so it's always hard to gauge. I'm curious if this is a field that you've studied or work in specifically? (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_law#Rule_of_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_law#Rule_of_law
gcb0 8y ago
global fight for dominance via proxy countries didn't end with cold war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalism
nutcracker46 8y ago
Here come the wumao, arguing that "Canada should have known better." Canada is doing exactly what it should: uphold rule of law, including treaty obligations. The issue is extradition of a bank fraud suspect, no matter how much the delicate feelings of China get hurt. Who would prefer to let a person commit fraud and walk away if they are rich or have powerful connections? You can bet your asses that no one would care if Meng was an uneducated, poor, and unconnected fentanyl seller. The arrest disturbed the hornet nest of Chinese state power, so bring out the pesticide.
wybiral 8y ago
People are jumping to a number of conclusions in these threads with little evidence. The rapid down-voting is crazy. There's no confirmation that this had anything to do with Meng, or that these people weren't guilty of something worth investigating. Wait for more details before assuming that everything is connected.
- curiousgal 8y ago
  Extrapolating from that, I always find it amusing when people seem to have global politics figured out, not realizing that it's a complex dynamic system with hundreds if not thousands of agents at play, when they ,the very same people, would be lost watching a two-player poker game.
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    But how can we know if we should agree with your comment without knowing your political affiliation?
  - latch 8y ago
    It's concerning. People have strong opinions (bordering on it being a "fact") about places they've never been to (or near). They might have never even left their country. It isn't something they've studied, it isn't remotely related to their work. But they still _know_ how it is.
    - abc-xyz 8y ago
      I shamefully lived in China for a long period, and almost every Chinese person I've talked to was either misinformed or oblivious to the kind of negative news you see discussed on HN. You can learn a lot, both negative and positive, about living in the country that you'd have no way of knowing if you hadn't been there (or done a lot of research), e.g. how foreigners are not allowed to stay at most cheapish hotels and will even be turned away from a lot of apartments. But by living in China then you're less likely to know about these news because if it isn't censored then you'll be exposed to their propaganda instead. And things are going to get much worse when the social credit system really kicks in and the citizens benefit from spreading propaganda.
wisdomoftheages 8y ago
Meng was arrested for fraud, lying to U.S. banks and violating financial disclosure laws; no different than any garden variety money-launderer. Most importantly, she's had a day in court, been granted bail in a hearing that was open to the media, and if extradited, will receive due process and a fair criminal trial where everyone will get to see the evidence against her. These two men have been 'disappeared'. Good luck ever seeing any shred of due process for them. Not even the most shameless Xi mouthpiece can credibly claim that China has anything resembling an independent judicial system. It's not surprising that all Chinese media and all commentators loyal to the Xi clique have cynically framed this in terms of Meng being 'abducted' or 'held hostage'. The worldview of authoritarian, personal dictatorship cannot even conceive of due process and the rule of law (which also accounts for some of the idiotic off-the-cuff remarks that Trump has made - fortunately, the U.S. still has a semi-functioning government with separation of powers and an independent judiciary, so he's not really in the saddle here)
- kw71 8y ago
  None of this 'How China Works' is new to anyone. Canada should have considered it when deciding to get involved. While the majority of US Federal prosecutions are honest, FBI agents and US attorneys do get involved in misapplication of the law and reckless prosecution for political or personal reasons. And our president respecting rule of law or being better than Xi on any measure except successful criminal behavior is a real tough sell. It would be easier to sell sand in the desert.
  - gpm 8y ago
    Canada absolutely should not have considered it when deciding to get involved. Canada, like any civilized nation, should follow the rule of law. If that has consequences for our deals with and nationals living in totalitarian states, so be it. You shouldn't get to be above the law just because a big trading partner wants you to be. Canada doesn't have a president, but the idea that our Prime Minister, or more importantly, our government respects the rule of law more than China isn't a hard sell at all. As bad as Trump is, the same is true about him (even if arguably only because the system forces it on him), and is certainly true of the American government as a whole.
monksy 8y ago
If this is a retaliation and they intend on continuing on this. China is going to find it's self on the bad end of travel advisories by a lot of western nations. BTW There have been videos about "tourist crackdowns" and how some of the authoritarian governments use visitors as scapegoats of bad behavior.
- tinza123 8y ago
  That seems to be the least of the problems right now. And of course when Canada just arrested business people they never need to worry about the travel advisories for Chinese ppl.
  - monksy 8y ago
    I'm suggesting is that a lot of western nations may place it on a "Risky Travel location" warning.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- diminish 8y ago
  US has become a risky destination for ordinary business travel. I suppose business and tech conferences better take place in neutral places where rule of law prevails.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    This is simply false, and the US will continue to be the #1 location for tech conferences for the foreseeable future. The only risk to travellers is that US customs may require people to see their Facebook profiles etc. - which is bad - but nobody is getting arrested arbitrarily, and even if they were 'rule of law prevails'.
    - ahakki 8y ago
      Well I don’t know about tech, but multiple swiss banks have had internal advisories against visit to the US, as some of their employees have been arrested.
em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
> "endanger China's national security" Victimization is a common tool of tyrants. In particular, China govt likes to use the phrase "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people" (伤害了中国人民的感情).
tomohawk 8y ago
China disappears people all the time. May or may not be related to the Meng thing. Here's another: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7911948/chinese-photographer-dark-side-communist-state-vanishes/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7911948/chinese-photographer-d...
joaomacp 8y ago
This battle between the US and China for influence and control over the world will be interesting. We all know the US are far from harmless in their foreign policy. But still, between a US-centered world (which is still where we are in the western world, maybe not economically, but culturally for sure) and a China-centered one, I would choose the former by far. This is still very much fiction, but there are many possibilities in the open. With the US questioning the support of EU to NATO, and the EU wanting the European Army, who knows where things will go (EU-China allying vs the US being the fictional world war III scenario).

138 points by rgbrenner 8y ago

Outline for us Indochina types: https://outline.com/qUJvaJ https://outline.com/qUJvaJ Quite surprised Canada has gotten itself into this considering the potential for escalation which is now playing out. A "NGO worker", possibly of natsec value and now another Canadian national. What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty? Watching the US and China duke it out in a trade war is somewhat in other countries interest economically, high profile arrests to use as bargaining chips is a risky business and the canucks seem to have thrown themselves right in the midst of it. To add to the absurdity the EU is pushing ahead with maintaining the Iran deal and are indicating their multinationals will continue doing business despite US sanctions.

ahmedalsudani 8y ago
Canada has an extradition agreement with the US. The Canadian government has a duty to uphold its end, which means arrest the individual when the US requests it and investigate the merits of the case. The Justice Department would do the same, though I'm sad to say, as a Canadian, that our prosecutors in Canada seem less interested in high-level white collar crime. (Yes, less interested than their American counterparts, believe it or not.)
- kannanvijayan 8y ago
  I agree with this perspective, with the addendum that the US president's statements might end up working against the prosecutors requesting extradition. It raises the real possibility that Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations as opposed to the legal facts surrounding the foundation of the extradition request - an argument I would expect her lawyers to seize upon. Before the statement by Trump, I was expecting the extradition request being granted. After the statement by Trump, I am more expecting it to be rejected. It is an unfortunate circumstance that Canada's implementation of its laws (specifically extradition laws) has run afoul of China's sensitivities and resulted in what seems to be retaliatory behavoiur. However it would be quite devastating if those considerations factored into our implementation of our laws. Canada should do this by the book, and it seems it will.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Meng's trial in the US would be subject to political or economic considerations Unlike in China, Canadian and American courts are fiercely independent of the executive.
    - paraditedc 8y ago
      I've seen this brought up quite a lot, but to me, a Chinese national, it's confusing how judiciary branch is independent. Didn't Trump nominate the supreme court justice? And isn't the nomination confirmed by congress? What about the constant conservative vs democrat number battle in the supreme court? Also, didn't Trump himself say that he can intervene in Ms. Meng's case? Edit: Great. Thanks for the downvotes as answers. Now I have a better understanding of how things work in the US.
      - wisdomoftheages 8y ago
        The executive nominates judges, but they hold tenure for life and after confirmation operate with complete independence as a separate branch of government with their own budget etc. The Supreme Court is also irrelevant to this because they do not initiate investigations, they do not oversee prosecutors, and they do not administer the justice system. They only hear cases about Constitutional issues - not criminal issues, so unless there's a constitutional dispute a case has no chance of reaching them. Judges in general do not oversee or initiate prosecutions, U.S. attorneys do. They're also appointed by the executive, but they operate independently and while, subject to Congressional oversight, he can fire some of them (but not the permanent civil servants who are the bulk of the staff), he cannot directly order them to do anything. In any case, an investigation of this complexity almost certainly started under Obama, just because they tend to take many years to reach the stage where charges are filed. Trump frequently claims to have powers that he does not have. He has said many times that he is going to do something only to find that he cannot actually do it, and so it hasn't been done.
      - wybiral 8y ago
        Trump says a lot of things but the system is actually more balanced than the power-play media show makes it seem.
- gcb0 8y ago
  the world doesn't work like that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik power and situation dictates how laws, specially from international treaties, are upheld.
  - ahmedalsudani 8y ago
    [Downvotes for my parent are unwarranted.] It would be naive to believe politics/geopolitics plays no role in the justice system; it would be equally naive to believe rule of law is a sham. I am an immigrant from a place where the legal code is largely a set of tools and pretexts for the powerful. I can assure you that the rule of law is more than just a phrase thrown around by our politicians.
    - tinza123 8y ago
      Not according to Trump tho.
- RidingPegasus 8y ago
  The US has a long history of refusing extradition requests by allies despite overwhelming evidence. It's become a one way street. The UK has blocked extradition to the US before even though the guilt is assured[0], the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_government_blocks_extradition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon#British_governme...
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > the alleged crimes here are nothing in comparison Willfully violating sanctions is a serious crime.
    - lechiffre10 8y ago
      Sanctions imposed by the U.S that hold no merit according to WTO or International law aren't even legal and are in fact considered an act of war. The only crime committed here is by the U.S.
      - briandon 8y ago
        Meng's arrest is for actions she allegedly took to help Iran evade sanctions years ago, during the period in which U.N. sanctions on Iran were in force. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-unofficial-skycom-allegedly-used-to-break-sanctions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-07/huawei-s-...
      - sonnyblarney 8y ago
        The US sanctions limiting export of US tech to Iran have nothing to do with the WTO or 'International Law'. Meng has apparently comitted a serious crime according to US law by exporting US-made tech to Iran. If this is proven to be true, she's clearly violating the law, and surely knowingly so.
    - RidingPegasus 8y ago
      UN sanctions were lifted on 16 January 2016. The US unilaterally decided in May this year they want to pull out of that agreement. The EU is still pushing ahead to have their largest companies trading with Iran despite American protestations. We both know nothing will happen to Daimler or Societe General execs.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"What did they really expect arresting corporate dynasty?" Justice? Transparency? Rule of law? Freedom of conscience and expression? 'Doing business with Iran' is not what she was arrested for - she was arrested for proving tech made in the USA to Iran, which is definitely a different thing. Grated it was very low tech.
- 0xb33fdead 8y ago
  Okay, hold up. "grated it was very low tech"; where did you learn about this (or is this an opinionated downplay)?
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    The tech she exported was HP gear - I'm not aware of anything specifically that HP make that is particularly high tech.
- RidingPegasus 8y ago
  > Crown counsel told a Friday bail hearing in B.C. Supreme Court in Vancouver Friday that Meng is "charged with conspiracy to defraud multiple international institutions" https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing-huawei-cfo-1.4936150 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bail-hearing... Do you foresee extradition requests for EU executives doing business with Iran? https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how-will-it-work/a-45647007 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-plan-to-sidestep-iran-sanctions-how...
  - wisdomoftheages 8y ago
    The crime is not trading with Iran, the crime is defrauding the US financial system in order to do it. For some reason, this is framed as though Huawei is accused of trading with Iran completely independently of the United States. That's not the case at all.
    - RidingPegasus 8y ago
wisdomoftheages 8y ago
The idea that Meng was arrested as part of a ploy in the 'trade war' is completely unfounded. These investigations take years and are initiated by the independent justice system. Trump can run his mouth off as much as he likes, but the U.S. system is not structured like China and the executive does not have supreme authority to direct arrests and prosecutions.

jiveturkey 8y ago

canada had to have seen this coming.

tjpnz 8y ago
Canada was fulfilling an extradition treaty it has with the United States. It really had no say in the matter. This should be of surprise to nobody.
- xyzzy_plugh 8y ago
  No, Canada had a say. It's a card like any other. Comply with the treaty or not. There's no clear answer. What happened here is clearly a choice officials weighed in on.

fatjokes 8y ago

The US has played Canada. They request this, Canada performs the arrest, Trump plays good cop ("I'll intervene if I have to"), and China can't retaliate against the US but can take it out on Canada. I'm sure Trump is giddy given how much he dislikes Trudeau.

giarc 8y ago
I don't believe Canada was played. I doubt she would have ever taken a flight through the USA and therefore this was probably their only chance to get her.
- RidingPegasus 8y ago
  The sealed indictment for her arrest was 4 months ago on Aug 22, she has traveled through numerous countries including Canada in that time. The arrest came only hours after US/China trade talks finished, it's also unusual in that it's an individual rather than the company being taken to court. She's also the CFO of the world's 2nd biggest smartphone manufacturer that just overtook Apple. Decide for yourself.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    If this is true, it really sheds light on this because it would indicate the arrest was political. Given the situation, I actually doubt it. I don't think this is Trump et. al. throwing a curve ball, I think this is the Feds just doing their job with bad timing.
    - RidingPegasus 8y ago
      At the same moment the President is sitting down with Xi discussing trade government agents are making moves to arrest an incredibly high profile Chinese figure and everyone seems to think it's a coincidence? China has an extensive history of politically motivated trials when there is foreign relation disputes between countries. They barely hide it. What's interesting here is the US doing the same thing back to them.

ralph84 8y ago

I have little doubt both of these guys are spies. A guy working for an NGO that does "crisis research" and a guy leading tours in North Korea. LOL. Any country with sufficiently advanced counter-intelligence has a list of spies operating on their soil that they monitor and keep in reserve for when it's politically favorable to round them up.

mywtfmp3 8y ago
1. Canada doesn't spy China. They cannot be spies. 2. China is an authoritarian state. The two Canadian are innocent. 3. I have made my mind before reading the article.
- lyrachord 8y ago
  The only point: because U are nothing. The Canada court and Trump know nothing about U.
throwawa485 8y ago
I totally agree. Or at the very least, assests to spies. China knew about them but let them operate, since known spies are better than unknown ones. I mean, since everyone is already jumping to conclusions with no proof, this seems just as valid.

KaoruAoiShiho 8y ago

Is this really retaliation for Meng? Wow that's incredibly artless and ham-fisted if true.

tinza123 8y ago
I agree it is out of the blue. But defending is normally lacking preparation and elegance than offending especially for sudden atracks, just like in real fight.
gpm 8y ago
All evidence points towards it being so. The first Canadian detained this time was a diplomat on a leave of absence from the foreign service [0]. As non politically neutral as you can get without seriously violating diplomatic protocol. China has a history of detaining people over political issues like this. The last time (2014) we (Canada) were considering extraditing a spy to the US they arrested two random Canadians and held them for half a year and 2 years [1]. As a Canadian I certainly hope that the only reaction by the Canadian government to this will be sanctions and cooling of relationships. We should not give into this bullying. Having a totalitarian state behind you should not make you above the law. People who chose to visit foreign states have to accept the risk that they will be subject to unjust laws. [0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kovrig-detained-china-tuesday-1.4940725 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kovrig-detained-china-tuesd... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/world/canada/canadian-couple-china-detention.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/world/canada/canadian-cou...
lvs 8y ago
Authoritarian governments are rarely accused of being artful.

str33t_punk 8y ago

China is making themselves look horrible here. Ms. Meng has a proper reason for being arrested (the allegations are that she committed fraud to bypass US sanctions against Iran and sell them US tech by lying about HuaWei and SkyComs involvement to HSBC). There will be a trial, this investigation has been happening for years, and it is by the Justice Department, not a request from Trump (who seems to have been caught surprised by the move). Canada didn't do anything, they are simply honoring their extradition treaties. In contrast, China is just throwing a fit in response and arresting random Canadians on trumped up charges. These are clearly politically motivated (China had threatened Canada with 'consequences' -- the timing is way too suspect here). We have been given no reason why they have been detained, and there are no court hearings or anything -- they have just been 'disappeared'. With this move, China has shown how authoritarian and anti business they are. No justice department, no investigation. These are simply political hostages. Further more, it is completely spineless that they are going after the, less powerful, Canadian nationals, and not Americans.

hucxsz 8y ago
How did you come to a conclusion that randomly arrested two people? Double standard?
- nabla9 8y ago
  Different systems and real differences. China does not have the rule of law or separation of powers like western countries have. In the west it's not easy for the executive branch to interfere with individual cases. US or Canada executive branch can't just tell justice department to arrest someone. In China that's possible and common.
  - latch 8y ago
    > China does not have the rule of law A quick look at Wiki suggest that there's at least some aspects of rule of law in China (1) - although with some defects. I don't have the background to compare these defects with those of any other country (like the US's high incarceration rate (in general, and of minorities specifically)). I have lived a few years in China and Hong Kong and know a few lawyers and accountants born/working there. This experience has left me with a generally positive outlook. I always try to keep in mind that my experience is narrow, but, sadly, people often have absolute opinions with even less experience, so it's always hard to gauge. I'm curious if this is a field that you've studied or work in specifically? (1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_law#Rule_of_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_law#Rule_of_law

gcb0 8y ago

global fight for dominance via proxy countries didn't end with cold war: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalism

nutcracker46 8y ago

Here come the wumao, arguing that "Canada should have known better." Canada is doing exactly what it should: uphold rule of law, including treaty obligations. The issue is extradition of a bank fraud suspect, no matter how much the delicate feelings of China get hurt. Who would prefer to let a person commit fraud and walk away if they are rich or have powerful connections? You can bet your asses that no one would care if Meng was an uneducated, poor, and unconnected fentanyl seller. The arrest disturbed the hornet nest of Chinese state power, so bring out the pesticide.

wybiral 8y ago

People are jumping to a number of conclusions in these threads with little evidence. The rapid down-voting is crazy. There's no confirmation that this had anything to do with Meng, or that these people weren't guilty of something worth investigating. Wait for more details before assuming that everything is connected.

curiousgal 8y ago
Extrapolating from that, I always find it amusing when people seem to have global politics figured out, not realizing that it's a complex dynamic system with hundreds if not thousands of agents at play, when they ,the very same people, would be lost watching a two-player poker game.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  But how can we know if we should agree with your comment without knowing your political affiliation?
- latch 8y ago
  It's concerning. People have strong opinions (bordering on it being a "fact") about places they've never been to (or near). They might have never even left their country. It isn't something they've studied, it isn't remotely related to their work. But they still _know_ how it is.
  - abc-xyz 8y ago
    I shamefully lived in China for a long period, and almost every Chinese person I've talked to was either misinformed or oblivious to the kind of negative news you see discussed on HN. You can learn a lot, both negative and positive, about living in the country that you'd have no way of knowing if you hadn't been there (or done a lot of research), e.g. how foreigners are not allowed to stay at most cheapish hotels and will even be turned away from a lot of apartments. But by living in China then you're less likely to know about these news because if it isn't censored then you'll be exposed to their propaganda instead. And things are going to get much worse when the social credit system really kicks in and the citizens benefit from spreading propaganda.

wisdomoftheages 8y ago

Meng was arrested for fraud, lying to U.S. banks and violating financial disclosure laws; no different than any garden variety money-launderer. Most importantly, she's had a day in court, been granted bail in a hearing that was open to the media, and if extradited, will receive due process and a fair criminal trial where everyone will get to see the evidence against her. These two men have been 'disappeared'. Good luck ever seeing any shred of due process for them. Not even the most shameless Xi mouthpiece can credibly claim that China has anything resembling an independent judicial system. It's not surprising that all Chinese media and all commentators loyal to the Xi clique have cynically framed this in terms of Meng being 'abducted' or 'held hostage'. The worldview of authoritarian, personal dictatorship cannot even conceive of due process and the rule of law (which also accounts for some of the idiotic off-the-cuff remarks that Trump has made - fortunately, the U.S. still has a semi-functioning government with separation of powers and an independent judiciary, so he's not really in the saddle here)

kw71 8y ago
None of this 'How China Works' is new to anyone. Canada should have considered it when deciding to get involved. While the majority of US Federal prosecutions are honest, FBI agents and US attorneys do get involved in misapplication of the law and reckless prosecution for political or personal reasons. And our president respecting rule of law or being better than Xi on any measure except successful criminal behavior is a real tough sell. It would be easier to sell sand in the desert.
- gpm 8y ago
  Canada absolutely should not have considered it when deciding to get involved. Canada, like any civilized nation, should follow the rule of law. If that has consequences for our deals with and nationals living in totalitarian states, so be it. You shouldn't get to be above the law just because a big trading partner wants you to be. Canada doesn't have a president, but the idea that our Prime Minister, or more importantly, our government respects the rule of law more than China isn't a hard sell at all. As bad as Trump is, the same is true about him (even if arguably only because the system forces it on him), and is certainly true of the American government as a whole.

monksy 8y ago

If this is a retaliation and they intend on continuing on this. China is going to find it's self on the bad end of travel advisories by a lot of western nations. BTW There have been videos about "tourist crackdowns" and how some of the authoritarian governments use visitors as scapegoats of bad behavior.

tinza123 8y ago
That seems to be the least of the problems right now. And of course when Canada just arrested business people they never need to worry about the travel advisories for Chinese ppl.
- monksy 8y ago
  I'm suggesting is that a lot of western nations may place it on a "Risky Travel location" warning.
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diminish 8y ago
US has become a risky destination for ordinary business travel. I suppose business and tech conferences better take place in neutral places where rule of law prevails.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  This is simply false, and the US will continue to be the #1 location for tech conferences for the foreseeable future. The only risk to travellers is that US customs may require people to see their Facebook profiles etc. - which is bad - but nobody is getting arrested arbitrarily, and even if they were 'rule of law prevails'.
  - ahakki 8y ago
    Well I don’t know about tech, but multiple swiss banks have had internal advisories against visit to the US, as some of their employees have been arrested.

em3rgent0rdr 8y ago

> "endanger China's national security" Victimization is a common tool of tyrants. In particular, China govt likes to use the phrase "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people" (伤害了中国人民的感情).

tomohawk 8y ago

China disappears people all the time. May or may not be related to the Meng thing. Here's another: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7911948/chinese-photographer-dark-side-communist-state-vanishes/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7911948/chinese-photographer-d...

joaomacp 8y ago

This battle between the US and China for influence and control over the world will be interesting. We all know the US are far from harmless in their foreign policy. But still, between a US-centered world (which is still where we are in the western world, maybe not economically, but culturally for sure) and a China-centered one, I would choose the former by far. This is still very much fiction, but there are many possibilities in the open. With the US questioning the support of EU to NATO, and the EU wanting the European Army, who knows where things will go (EU-China allying vs the US being the fictional world war III scenario).