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People demanding to see evidence here have to realize that information like that tends to stay classified for some time as ongoing operations are put in jeopard

People demanding to see evidence here have to realize that information like that tends to stay classified for some time as ongoing operations are put in jeopardy just by announcing this. It's also from the justice department, meaning multiple groups of eyes were on this decision, not a few anti-China hawks. China does have a history of this kind of behavior.

King-Aaron 8y ago
I honestly find it quite concerning how much pro-chinese-government support bubbles up on platforms like HN, etc. Nothing against individuals in China, but as an entity the government (as with all governments) should be heavily scrutinized. It's definitely the government's SOP to try and exfiltrate data from the west, and it's no small secret. I feel everyone is getting pretty nonchalant about it.
- kochikame 8y ago
  Just yesterday some people were commenting how there has been a marked rise in ANTI-Chinese government comments on HN recently I think there might be a lot of confirmation bias going on
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Both could be true, at the expense of more neutral comments, if there's more polarization.
- wybiral 8y ago
  I've noticed that too. Some of it might be suspicious but I suspect there's just a lot of misinformation, disinformation, and feelings floating around.
- solotronics 8y ago
  I made a comment (that was the top comment on an article about fentanyl) criticising the Chinese for promoting labs making illegal and highly dangerous drugs such as fentanyl which they send to the west. My post was flagged and taken down!
  - lexs 8y ago
    Fentanyl is a Schedule II drug, the labs themselves aren't the problem, black market trade is
- joejerryronnie 8y ago
  This is what a concerted government propaganda campaign looks like in today’s digital world. Edit: witness the downvotes - my point exactly.
  - wybiral 8y ago
    > Edit: witness the downvotes - my point exactly. It doesn't take much.
    - joejerryronnie 8y ago
      Every time a downvote occurs, a black helicopter simultaneously flies over my house - it’s uncanny!
  - izacus 8y ago
    Did you mean American or Chinese?
- nodesocket 8y ago
  I think it's fair to acknowledge there is a non-trivial amount of users from China on HN, with their own agenda. Just as I am American, and pro-America, I am sure they are pro-China. With that said, China has a history of bad behavior, especially with regards to cyber-warfare against US companies.
  - wybiral 8y ago
    That's been my assumption too. There also seems to be more acceptance of that even in the business world. I get contacted by Chinese tech companies offering partnership deals because I've made YouTube videos about electronics and they tend to have interesting contractual agreements surrounding social media. For instance, no other tech company has ever asked me to censor negative user comments if I review their product but multiple Chinese companies have requested exactly that. One of them worded it as "silencing the slanderous tiny trumpets".
    - brokenmachine 8y ago
      >"silencing the slanderous tiny trumpets" Love it!
- dillondoyle 8y ago
  I would love to see an analysis of HN comments. I don't even know if there is already a dataset of all HN comments to analysis or if someone would have to scrape.. It feels to me either my personal bias of where I think the world opinion stands is off (e.g. # of ulta-defensive of China comments > I expect), or there is in fact organized pro-china comments. Maybe a mix of both!
  - golfer 8y ago
    Fyi all hacker news comments since 2006 are available via bigquery on GCP: https://console.cloud.google.com/marketplace/details/y-combinator/hacker-news https://console.cloud.google.com/marketplace/details/y-combi...
- zaptheimpaler 8y ago
  My problem with it is that the US government does plenty of horrible shit, including spying, warfare and torture. The Snowden leaks showed without a doubt that US intelligence has no qualms collecting and admitting to spying on ALL communication between non-US citizens. Without telling anyone... hacking a marriot database is peanuts in comparison. Somehow whatever the US does to protect its interests is moral but when another country does the same its evil or "concerning". Bullshit US paternalism.
  - wybiral 8y ago
    That sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
    - zaptheimpaler 8y ago
      ...because in the context of global politics, it applies. If country A can spy on B, what right does it have to demand B not spy on A? Whataboutism is about responding to a criticism of your countries internal problems with a criticism of theirs. This is not about internal problems, its about what one country can do to another.
      - wybiral 8y ago
        Many people in the US criticized that behavior from the NSA. Maybe you didn't notice those stories. It doesn't make all other instances of hacking or spying okay. But surveillance is one issue (which is valid and we should talk about it). Stealing intellectual property using your intelligence apparatus in a way that benefits your state-sponsored businesses is another. We can talk about that too.
        zaptheimpaler 8y ago
        People did criticize it but that didn’t stop them did it? Last I checked Snowden was declared a criminal. I’m talking about the Chinese governments perspective. From their perspective, until the the NSA stops spying (whether its criticized by US citizens or not) it does not make sense for China to stop spying either, purely to equalize the playing field. I’m against spying too but i can understand why any country wants to protect its interests.
- blackoil 8y ago
  HN is now a pretty global community with enough presence outside western world. So as an Indian, I have no dog in fight (except that I stayed in Marriott, so my data is probably leaked), but I have absolutely no trust in both US and Chinese government and media and for that matter Indian govt and media. It is very much possible that Chinese hackers got this data because they could and it is lucrative and then sold to players including govt. And US intelligence is only passing selective info. to show Chinese govt as the primary perpetrator.
saltedonion 8y ago
Isn’t the justice department under the executive branch? With head appointed by the president? Or are they the judicial branch and have independence?
- wybiral 8y ago
  It's exec but a decision like this would still require numerous people. Not that situations haven't arisen where exec is in disagreement with intel (Iraq, for instance) but that's pretty rare. And it's hard to tell exactly until more info comes in and other agencies corroborate. My point was that this isn't one person trying to start something. Multiple people had to be involved if what the Times is reporting here is correct. Not everything is a conspiracy.
mindslight 8y ago
People demanding to see evidence are already falling for a trap of a narrow Overton window. The Internet is hostile noise, and it does not really matter "who" hacked whatever - what matters is who created and maintained such ridiculously insecure systems. And no, I'm not talking about the actual servers themselves - but the business practices of keeping a surveillance log of every hotel guest ad infinitum.
nradov 8y ago
The US government lost all credibility for this type of claim in 2003 when they manufactured intelligence to justify the Iraq war. So it's not surprising that people now demand verifiable evidence.
- wybiral 8y ago
  That was the administration vs the intel community. There were CIA reports advising the administration that there was no clear evidence but the admin pushed the WMD narrative really hard because of a potential. Even then, it was more complicated than that because Iran was on the verge of attacking Iraq (which is probably why the admin and military were pushing to move in the first place). Tangent aside, it's different when US administrative, US intelligence, and multiple other countries are in agreement about Chinese hacking and intellectual property theft.
  - nradov 8y ago
    Yes but those subtleties are lost on the general public and most foreign governments. Regardless of the causes, in the end the US government lied. Credibility is fragile.
  - AsyncAwait 8y ago
    > That was the administration vs the intel community. There's plenty of examples of the CIA manufacturing evidence, doing coups etc. so that doesn't mean much either. What matters is the result.
AndrewKemendo 8y ago
The sad reality is that the tech community has basically zero faith in the US government. This is not my position, but it's very clear that is the most vocal sentiment being expressed and seems to be the most prevalent even among those who aren't very vocal.
- wybiral 8y ago
  I don't think that the faith in China is much greater among most of those people. It's just that the censorship among anti-China sentiment is more aggressive than anti-US.
  - AndrewKemendo 8y ago
    Actually I think that's the wrong perspective. I don't think these folks have any more faith in China than they do the US, moreso, they don't see China as as much of a threat to themselves and others as the US.
    - AsyncAwait 8y ago
      Precisely this. As an European, I just don't think China has as much power over me as the U.S. Also, ask Kim Dotcom who he thinks is the bigger problem.

King-Aaron 8y ago

I honestly find it quite concerning how much pro-chinese-government support bubbles up on platforms like HN, etc. Nothing against individuals in China, but as an entity the government (as with all governments) should be heavily scrutinized. It's definitely the government's SOP to try and exfiltrate data from the west, and it's no small secret. I feel everyone is getting pretty nonchalant about it.

kochikame 8y ago
Just yesterday some people were commenting how there has been a marked rise in ANTI-Chinese government comments on HN recently I think there might be a lot of confirmation bias going on
- icebraining 8y ago
  Both could be true, at the expense of more neutral comments, if there's more polarization.
wybiral 8y ago
I've noticed that too. Some of it might be suspicious but I suspect there's just a lot of misinformation, disinformation, and feelings floating around.
solotronics 8y ago
I made a comment (that was the top comment on an article about fentanyl) criticising the Chinese for promoting labs making illegal and highly dangerous drugs such as fentanyl which they send to the west. My post was flagged and taken down!
- lexs 8y ago
  Fentanyl is a Schedule II drug, the labs themselves aren't the problem, black market trade is
joejerryronnie 8y ago
This is what a concerted government propaganda campaign looks like in today’s digital world. Edit: witness the downvotes - my point exactly.
- wybiral 8y ago
  > Edit: witness the downvotes - my point exactly. It doesn't take much.
  - joejerryronnie 8y ago
    Every time a downvote occurs, a black helicopter simultaneously flies over my house - it’s uncanny!
- izacus 8y ago
  Did you mean American or Chinese?
nodesocket 8y ago
I think it's fair to acknowledge there is a non-trivial amount of users from China on HN, with their own agenda. Just as I am American, and pro-America, I am sure they are pro-China. With that said, China has a history of bad behavior, especially with regards to cyber-warfare against US companies.
- wybiral 8y ago
  That's been my assumption too. There also seems to be more acceptance of that even in the business world. I get contacted by Chinese tech companies offering partnership deals because I've made YouTube videos about electronics and they tend to have interesting contractual agreements surrounding social media. For instance, no other tech company has ever asked me to censor negative user comments if I review their product but multiple Chinese companies have requested exactly that. One of them worded it as "silencing the slanderous tiny trumpets".
  - brokenmachine 8y ago
    >"silencing the slanderous tiny trumpets" Love it!
dillondoyle 8y ago
I would love to see an analysis of HN comments. I don't even know if there is already a dataset of all HN comments to analysis or if someone would have to scrape.. It feels to me either my personal bias of where I think the world opinion stands is off (e.g. # of ulta-defensive of China comments > I expect), or there is in fact organized pro-china comments. Maybe a mix of both!
- golfer 8y ago
  Fyi all hacker news comments since 2006 are available via bigquery on GCP: https://console.cloud.google.com/marketplace/details/y-combinator/hacker-news https://console.cloud.google.com/marketplace/details/y-combi...
zaptheimpaler 8y ago
My problem with it is that the US government does plenty of horrible shit, including spying, warfare and torture. The Snowden leaks showed without a doubt that US intelligence has no qualms collecting and admitting to spying on ALL communication between non-US citizens. Without telling anyone... hacking a marriot database is peanuts in comparison. Somehow whatever the US does to protect its interests is moral but when another country does the same its evil or "concerning". Bullshit US paternalism.
- wybiral 8y ago
  That sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
  - zaptheimpaler 8y ago
    ...because in the context of global politics, it applies. If country A can spy on B, what right does it have to demand B not spy on A? Whataboutism is about responding to a criticism of your countries internal problems with a criticism of theirs. This is not about internal problems, its about what one country can do to another.
    - wybiral 8y ago
      Many people in the US criticized that behavior from the NSA. Maybe you didn't notice those stories. It doesn't make all other instances of hacking or spying okay. But surveillance is one issue (which is valid and we should talk about it). Stealing intellectual property using your intelligence apparatus in a way that benefits your state-sponsored businesses is another. We can talk about that too.
      - zaptheimpaler 8y ago
        People did criticize it but that didn’t stop them did it? Last I checked Snowden was declared a criminal. I’m talking about the Chinese governments perspective. From their perspective, until the the NSA stops spying (whether its criticized by US citizens or not) it does not make sense for China to stop spying either, purely to equalize the playing field. I’m against spying too but i can understand why any country wants to protect its interests.
blackoil 8y ago
HN is now a pretty global community with enough presence outside western world. So as an Indian, I have no dog in fight (except that I stayed in Marriott, so my data is probably leaked), but I have absolutely no trust in both US and Chinese government and media and for that matter Indian govt and media. It is very much possible that Chinese hackers got this data because they could and it is lucrative and then sold to players including govt. And US intelligence is only passing selective info. to show Chinese govt as the primary perpetrator.

saltedonion 8y ago

Isn’t the justice department under the executive branch? With head appointed by the president? Or are they the judicial branch and have independence?

wybiral 8y ago
It's exec but a decision like this would still require numerous people. Not that situations haven't arisen where exec is in disagreement with intel (Iraq, for instance) but that's pretty rare. And it's hard to tell exactly until more info comes in and other agencies corroborate. My point was that this isn't one person trying to start something. Multiple people had to be involved if what the Times is reporting here is correct. Not everything is a conspiracy.

mindslight 8y ago

People demanding to see evidence are already falling for a trap of a narrow Overton window. The Internet is hostile noise, and it does not really matter "who" hacked whatever - what matters is who created and maintained such ridiculously insecure systems. And no, I'm not talking about the actual servers themselves - but the business practices of keeping a surveillance log of every hotel guest ad infinitum.

nradov 8y ago

The US government lost all credibility for this type of claim in 2003 when they manufactured intelligence to justify the Iraq war. So it's not surprising that people now demand verifiable evidence.

wybiral 8y ago
That was the administration vs the intel community. There were CIA reports advising the administration that there was no clear evidence but the admin pushed the WMD narrative really hard because of a potential. Even then, it was more complicated than that because Iran was on the verge of attacking Iraq (which is probably why the admin and military were pushing to move in the first place). Tangent aside, it's different when US administrative, US intelligence, and multiple other countries are in agreement about Chinese hacking and intellectual property theft.
- nradov 8y ago
  Yes but those subtleties are lost on the general public and most foreign governments. Regardless of the causes, in the end the US government lied. Credibility is fragile.
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  > That was the administration vs the intel community. There's plenty of examples of the CIA manufacturing evidence, doing coups etc. so that doesn't mean much either. What matters is the result.

AndrewKemendo 8y ago

The sad reality is that the tech community has basically zero faith in the US government. This is not my position, but it's very clear that is the most vocal sentiment being expressed and seems to be the most prevalent even among those who aren't very vocal.

wybiral 8y ago
I don't think that the faith in China is much greater among most of those people. It's just that the censorship among anti-China sentiment is more aggressive than anti-US.
- AndrewKemendo 8y ago
  Actually I think that's the wrong perspective. I don't think these folks have any more faith in China than they do the US, moreso, they don't see China as as much of a threat to themselves and others as the US.
  - AsyncAwait 8y ago
    Precisely this. As an European, I just don't think China has as much power over me as the U.S. Also, ask Kim Dotcom who he thinks is the bigger problem.