6 ms·

This seems to be undergraduate only. Am I mistaken? I was talking about graduate students as well.

HarryHirsch 8y ago
In any halfway decent graduate program the students are paid graduate stipends from teaching assignments and grants awarded to the advisor. That's important! If you are asked to pay for graduate tution, the program is worthless. Corollary: taught Masters programs are worthless, they are moneyspinners for the university,.
- hopler 8y ago
  Paid Masters programs are not worthless, because employers pay for masters degree holders.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    Not enough in most cases to make up for the earnings lost during the time spent studying, never mind the tuition. MBAs aren’t worth it outside the top tier. There are fields where a Master’s is a de facto requirement but they’re generally prestige fields where the money is crap in any case, for at least five years after graduation, for people with rich parents or spouses. Think publishing, fashion, art curation or working in the aid industry. There are also fields where a doctorate is the entry level qualification like biotech, materials science etc. even in the private sector, but that's what happens when a there are more than ten times as many PhDs producer as there are academic jobs for.
  - nradov 8y ago
    And if you're already an employee, many employers will reimburse tuition for accredited master's degree programs.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  A taught Master’s is a great deal if it will help you substantially with immigrating to the US. That explains the demographics of taught Master’s in CS handily.
- wpasc 8y ago
  Many companies who have tiered hiring packages (many, many employers) by default reward a masters more than a bachelors, and a phd more than a masters. There are quite a few examples (especially at good employers) of a masters being plainly rewarded in writing
dgacmu 8y ago
PhD tuition is covered. Masters' students usually have to pay.
- cbkeller 8y ago
  Yeah, this is the #1 thing people get wrong about STEM grad school. Not only is tuition 100% covered, you get a stipend that's usually 20-30k per year depending on local cost of living. Masters is completely covered too if you go in to a program that's expected to continue on to a PhD, and will as likely as not be covered even for a plain masters in some pure science fields.
  - kevinventullo 8y ago
    The stipend is even north of 30k in STEM at places like Harvard and MIT.
    - infinite8s 8y ago
      It's even north of 30k at places like John's Hopkins in super cheap Baltimore (and this was more than 10 years ago when I left)
      - kevinventullo 8y ago
        Could be a private school vs public school distinction. UC stipends were < 30k in the early 2010's.
        infinite8s 8y ago
        Perhaps, but our stipends were determined by NIH training grants.
        selimthegrim 8y ago
        It was <20 at UCSB in chemistry then.
  - 8y ago
runako 8y ago
You said "college," which means undergraduate in the US. First: nobody is forced to get a graduate degree. In many fields (like programming), it's nothing like a requirement to earnings maximization. Since grad students already have degrees, they are also free to work and save until they can pay for fees outright or reduce their loan burden. I don't have total stats in front of me, but it looks like the Law/Medical/Business schools are ~50% of graduate employment at Harvard. Take it as read that these are worth borrowing for. The other 50% -- AFAIK there is a significant portion of students on fellowships/scholarships of some kind. My guess is very few people are taking on a bunch of debt for a Divinity PhD. At this point, it's fair to say that Harvard offers better financial value at all levels for its programs than many public universities offer their in-state residents.
- ordinaryradical 8y ago
  > The other 50% -- AFAIK there is a significant portion of students on fellowships/scholarships of some kind. My guess is very few people are taking on a bunch of debt for a Divinity PhD. It's interesting that so many replies function on these kind of assumptions when I am telling HN my literal experience at an Ivy League postgraduate program. I received two of the available three fellowships one could compete for. They covered less than 5% of tuition overall. Six figures of debt was the norm for my program. Now of course, as you said, no one is forced to get a degree in humanities or what have you, but my point is that if you make expertise in these fields contingent on massive, insurmountable debt, you impoverish the culture.
  - runako 8y ago
    >> It's interesting that so many replies function on these kind of assumptions when I am telling HN my literal experience at an Ivy League postgraduate program. You've hinted at your experience without providing details (even the school or the type of graduate program). I obviously can't comment on your situation because I know nothing about it. I am literally assuming nothing about your experience. I do know other Harvard grads (both undergraduate and grad programs) and have some insight into their situations. They don't have "massive, insurmountable debt." Anecdata abound. I vigorously agree with your last point.

In any halfway decent graduate program the students are paid graduate stipends from teaching assignments and grants awarded to the advisor. That's important! If you are asked to pay for graduate tution, the program is worthless. Corollary: taught Masters programs are worthless, they are moneyspinners for the university,.

hopler 8y ago
Paid Masters programs are not worthless, because employers pay for masters degree holders.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Not enough in most cases to make up for the earnings lost during the time spent studying, never mind the tuition. MBAs aren’t worth it outside the top tier. There are fields where a Master’s is a de facto requirement but they’re generally prestige fields where the money is crap in any case, for at least five years after graduation, for people with rich parents or spouses. Think publishing, fashion, art curation or working in the aid industry. There are also fields where a doctorate is the entry level qualification like biotech, materials science etc. even in the private sector, but that's what happens when a there are more than ten times as many PhDs producer as there are academic jobs for.
- nradov 8y ago
  And if you're already an employee, many employers will reimburse tuition for accredited master's degree programs.
barry-cotter 8y ago
A taught Master’s is a great deal if it will help you substantially with immigrating to the US. That explains the demographics of taught Master’s in CS handily.
wpasc 8y ago
Many companies who have tiered hiring packages (many, many employers) by default reward a masters more than a bachelors, and a phd more than a masters. There are quite a few examples (especially at good employers) of a masters being plainly rewarded in writing

dgacmu 8y ago

PhD tuition is covered. Masters' students usually have to pay.

cbkeller 8y ago
Yeah, this is the #1 thing people get wrong about STEM grad school. Not only is tuition 100% covered, you get a stipend that's usually 20-30k per year depending on local cost of living. Masters is completely covered too if you go in to a program that's expected to continue on to a PhD, and will as likely as not be covered even for a plain masters in some pure science fields.
- kevinventullo 8y ago
  The stipend is even north of 30k in STEM at places like Harvard and MIT.
  - infinite8s 8y ago
    It's even north of 30k at places like John's Hopkins in super cheap Baltimore (and this was more than 10 years ago when I left)
    - kevinventullo 8y ago
      Could be a private school vs public school distinction. UC stipends were < 30k in the early 2010's.
      - infinite8s 8y ago
        Perhaps, but our stipends were determined by NIH training grants.
      - selimthegrim 8y ago
        It was <20 at UCSB in chemistry then.
- 8y ago

runako 8y ago

You said "college," which means undergraduate in the US. First: nobody is forced to get a graduate degree. In many fields (like programming), it's nothing like a requirement to earnings maximization. Since grad students already have degrees, they are also free to work and save until they can pay for fees outright or reduce their loan burden. I don't have total stats in front of me, but it looks like the Law/Medical/Business schools are ~50% of graduate employment at Harvard. Take it as read that these are worth borrowing for. The other 50% -- AFAIK there is a significant portion of students on fellowships/scholarships of some kind. My guess is very few people are taking on a bunch of debt for a Divinity PhD. At this point, it's fair to say that Harvard offers better financial value at all levels for its programs than many public universities offer their in-state residents.

ordinaryradical 8y ago
> The other 50% -- AFAIK there is a significant portion of students on fellowships/scholarships of some kind. My guess is very few people are taking on a bunch of debt for a Divinity PhD. It's interesting that so many replies function on these kind of assumptions when I am telling HN my literal experience at an Ivy League postgraduate program. I received two of the available three fellowships one could compete for. They covered less than 5% of tuition overall. Six figures of debt was the norm for my program. Now of course, as you said, no one is forced to get a degree in humanities or what have you, but my point is that if you make expertise in these fields contingent on massive, insurmountable debt, you impoverish the culture.
- runako 8y ago
  >> It's interesting that so many replies function on these kind of assumptions when I am telling HN my literal experience at an Ivy League postgraduate program. You've hinted at your experience without providing details (even the school or the type of graduate program). I obviously can't comment on your situation because I know nothing about it. I am literally assuming nothing about your experience. I do know other Harvard grads (both undergraduate and grad programs) and have some insight into their situations. They don't have "massive, insurmountable debt." Anecdata abound. I vigorously agree with your last point.