4 ms·

> The same person who managed to make the text and background color not clash Just to check, is that sarcasm? Because having those end up the same for users w

> The same person who managed to make the text and background color not clash Just to check, is that sarcasm? Because having those end up the same for users who use non-default colors is a _very_ common webdev mistake...

PavlovsCat 8y ago
No sarcasm, and that question wasn't rhetorical either: How is a scrollbar that different from other input elements within webpages that can already be styled? And what do you mean by using non-default colors? User stylesheets would also include scrollbar colors anyway; do you mean just setting a background but no text color (assuming a default of black, which might not be black for the user)? Don't see how this could apply to this CSS property, since it takes two colors, you either set both or none. It seems logical to me that if you can read the text on the web page, that is, if the web dev hasn't made the common mistake that renders the text unreadable, they will set the scrollbar colors to something of similar "quality". If you can't read the text because they use CSS badly, then the scrollbar color is the least of your worries. QED? Generally speaking, there are a lot of "common webdev mistakes", like using the giant images and scaling them down, having text and background color very close together... but we don't take that away just because some abuse it, so resisting more flexibility on those grounds doesn't strike me as so "obvious" as people seem to agree it is. If you can allow websites to hide the mouse cursor, I don't think the web will break because of this CSS property. If you don't want to see it on any page, override it in your user stylesheet, done.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  "If you can allow websites to hide the mouse cursor" I object to this as well, but that's a battle that was lost a long time ago.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    What do you mean, as well? That's the only bit you didn't ignore.. and it's useful for when you draw your own cursor in WebGL. I can't think of a single time I ever saw it abused, I guess I don't frequent the kind of website that would.
    - JohnFen 8y ago
      By "as well", I mean "as well as objecting to web devs being able to alter the appearance of browser controls". Yes, I do see the usefulness of being able to do all of those things, but in practice, I don't appreciate it when it's done. I'm not saying that it's abusive (and I'm not talking about egregious misuse of these abilities), I'm just saying that I personally dislike it when sites do this sort of thing. I fear that I've come off as too militant on these issues -- as a web dev, you should do what you deem best. As a user, if your choices are too annoying to me, I'll just avoid your site. I think this whole thing just plays into a personal issue I have over the web these days... from a usability and aesthetic standpoint, the web has been noticeably declining for me over the past few years.
      - PavlovsCat 8y ago
        > I do see the usefulness of being able to do all of those things, but in practice, I don't appreciate it when it's done. That I can certainly agree with. I also think users should be able to override and customize things... ideally, everybody gets more options? And user agents should absolutely be user agents, instead of brochure displays. While design may be somewhat subjective, I also think websites are getting worse. If that's a "personal issue", we both have it :D Just the last one I just looked at, that made me think "why? who is this for?" https://www.opensuse.org/ https://www.opensuse.org/ vs. https://web.archive.org/web/20081210082207/http://www.opensuse.org/en/ https://web.archive.org/web/20081210082207/http://www.opensu... I just think marketing (and mobile?) play a much larger role in the downfall of the web and the rise of generic copy drowning in padding, than all the stuff we can do with CSS.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Scrollbars aren't within webpages, they're browser chrome. Why not just let the webdev alter that too.
  - Nadya 8y ago
    Aren't commonly within webpages. But they can be. They just often aren't because it is a confusing UX (because they almost never are.) Example from Codepen: https://vgy.me/IBmcUz.png https://vgy.me/IBmcUz.png

PavlovsCat 8y ago

No sarcasm, and that question wasn't rhetorical either: How is a scrollbar that different from other input elements within webpages that can already be styled? And what do you mean by using non-default colors? User stylesheets would also include scrollbar colors anyway; do you mean just setting a background but no text color (assuming a default of black, which might not be black for the user)? Don't see how this could apply to this CSS property, since it takes two colors, you either set both or none. It seems logical to me that if you can read the text on the web page, that is, if the web dev hasn't made the common mistake that renders the text unreadable, they will set the scrollbar colors to something of similar "quality". If you can't read the text because they use CSS badly, then the scrollbar color is the least of your worries. QED? Generally speaking, there are a lot of "common webdev mistakes", like using the giant images and scaling them down, having text and background color very close together... but we don't take that away just because some abuse it, so resisting more flexibility on those grounds doesn't strike me as so "obvious" as people seem to agree it is. If you can allow websites to hide the mouse cursor, I don't think the web will break because of this CSS property. If you don't want to see it on any page, override it in your user stylesheet, done.

JohnFen 8y ago
"If you can allow websites to hide the mouse cursor" I object to this as well, but that's a battle that was lost a long time ago.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  What do you mean, as well? That's the only bit you didn't ignore.. and it's useful for when you draw your own cursor in WebGL. I can't think of a single time I ever saw it abused, I guess I don't frequent the kind of website that would.
  - JohnFen 8y ago
    By "as well", I mean "as well as objecting to web devs being able to alter the appearance of browser controls". Yes, I do see the usefulness of being able to do all of those things, but in practice, I don't appreciate it when it's done. I'm not saying that it's abusive (and I'm not talking about egregious misuse of these abilities), I'm just saying that I personally dislike it when sites do this sort of thing. I fear that I've come off as too militant on these issues -- as a web dev, you should do what you deem best. As a user, if your choices are too annoying to me, I'll just avoid your site. I think this whole thing just plays into a personal issue I have over the web these days... from a usability and aesthetic standpoint, the web has been noticeably declining for me over the past few years.
    - PavlovsCat 8y ago
      > I do see the usefulness of being able to do all of those things, but in practice, I don't appreciate it when it's done. That I can certainly agree with. I also think users should be able to override and customize things... ideally, everybody gets more options? And user agents should absolutely be user agents, instead of brochure displays. While design may be somewhat subjective, I also think websites are getting worse. If that's a "personal issue", we both have it :D Just the last one I just looked at, that made me think "why? who is this for?" https://www.opensuse.org/ https://www.opensuse.org/ vs. https://web.archive.org/web/20081210082207/http://www.opensuse.org/en/ https://web.archive.org/web/20081210082207/http://www.opensu... I just think marketing (and mobile?) play a much larger role in the downfall of the web and the rise of generic copy drowning in padding, than all the stuff we can do with CSS.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Scrollbars aren't within webpages, they're browser chrome. Why not just let the webdev alter that too.
- Nadya 8y ago
  Aren't commonly within webpages. But they can be. They just often aren't because it is a confusing UX (because they almost never are.) Example from Codepen: https://vgy.me/IBmcUz.png https://vgy.me/IBmcUz.png