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> The CSS Scrollbars Level 1 spec standardizes features for setting scrollbar width and color I would like these features to be standardised to hands-off-my-fr

> The CSS Scrollbars Level 1 spec standardizes features for setting scrollbar width and color I would like these features to be standardised to hands-off-my-fricking-scrollbars. I’m fed up with impossible-to-grab 1px-wide scrollbars because “everyone has trackpads”. No, they don’t.

mindcrime 8y ago
Agreed. There's really little or no good reason for a website to be able to change the scrollbars at all.
- Zekio 8y ago
  on Windows you will always have a white scrollbar even with dark theme enabled in Windows and firefox, and if you are then on a dark website the scrollbar is basically a beacon of light
  - zapzupnz 8y ago
    Given that WebKit recently added "Dark Mode" support, it would likely be sufficient for Firefox to do the same and simply recolour the scrollbar itself, rather than trusting CSS artists to do it sanely and properly.
    - bastawhiz 8y ago
      You're assuming the only scrollbar is on the far right-hand side of the screen. There are plenty of inline scroll bars and scrollbars in parts of the UI that are not adjacent to "native" chrome. Always using the OS default does not make for a good experience.
      - zapzupnz 8y ago
        I don’t see in anything I wrote any implication that I assumed anything about what scroll bars needed or would be themed. A browser-wide scrollbar styling system, able to be opted into by use of particular CSS, doesn’t imply anything about whether we are talking about just one scroll bar or all of them. I also disagree about native controls not always being the best solution when it comes to scrolling. We all know how annoying it is when a page jacks scrolling; it’s a usability nightmare that makes pages’ scroll behaviour harder to predict. We don’t need to add to the usability issues by letting one of the most fundamental pieces of chrome in a web browser get jacked even further than the already impermissible state.
        bastawhiz 8y ago
        Changing the appearance and the behavior of scrollbars (or replacing them entirely as you mention) are very different concerns.
        zapzupnz 8y ago
        Not really, it's the same concern; the potential for gratuitous, superfluous, or regressive modification of a stable and predictable user interface element that is representative of the most fundamental of actions when it comes to long-form document-based design: scrolling.
Zekio 8y ago
you can disable it in about:config by searching scrollbar if that has your fancy :)
chrisseaton 8y ago
> because “everyone has trackpads”. No, they don’t. Don't most mice have scrolling as well? It's not about trackpads.
- JohnFen 8y ago
  They do, but they don't eliminate the need for scrollbars that can actually be used.
- 51lver 8y ago
  I have a trackpoint with no 3rd button. Many trackballs don't have scroll wheels. Many folks use arrow keys and space, shiftspace, pgup/down to navigate too and those require nice visible scroll bars that move the whole document to navigate effectively. Long story short, stop fscking with accessibility. If your js code or libraries handles ANY input events, you'd better watch yourself because you're venturing into specialized-interface-by-and-for-assholes-land.
- bowersbros 8y ago
  Things like large documents don't make that any easier though. Scrolling through a large document can take a while, but a scrollbar allows you to get to somewhere else often quite a lot faster. Imagine you cmd + F a phrase and there are 200 responses separated into like 4 chunks of a document. It can be useful to scroll to the start of each chunk to get the context of them.
- bm98 8y ago
  Most new mice, yes. I use an original Logitech MouseMan 3-button mouse with no scroll-wheel. I realize I'm an outlier, but no mouse has ever come close in terms of comfort for me - so I continue to use it, and life has been just fine until the advent of the Overlay Scroll Bar. I realize the benefits of the Overlay Scroll Bar to the majority of users who have scroll-wheels. But it sure would be nice if there was an easy way to revert back to the Normal Scroll Bar ("Classic" scroll bar?). You know, the wide bar that scrolls down exactly one page-length if you click outside of the bar? I've spent plenty of time Googling and in "about:config" and exporting environment variables like GTK_OVERLAY_SCROLLING=0 to no avail.
kps 8y ago
I just want working page-up and page-down keys.
dictum 8y ago
Time for FF's balance of configurability and reasonable defaults to shine: the about:config properties to edit are `layout.css.scrollbar-color.enabled` and `layout.css.scrollbar-width.enabled`.
- mintplant 8y ago
  If you prefer config files to ad-hoc configuration in the GUI, you can set up a user.js file [0] with your preferred about:config tweaks. [0] http://kb.mozillazine.org/User.js_file http://kb.mozillazine.org/User.js_file
- AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
  I am pretty sure that changing it would be a bad idea if you care about your privacy.
  - RussianCow 8y ago
    Why? Is there even a way to test whether this is enabled?
    - QasimK 8y ago
      Yes, scroll bars are already used to identify which operating system you are using as their width varies between systems.
      - baroffoos 8y ago
        Your user agent already does this.
        AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
        Which is why many privacy-minded people change their user agent to match the most popular one, especially the OS part.
    - 8y ago
zeotroph 8y ago
> Scrollbar One thing I like about the Firefox (Gtk?) scrollbar is that it finally removed (a few version ago already) the "Click on it somewhere, but it doesn't move there but just acts like PgDown/Up", i.e. the non-warping to the exact click position but just inching towards it. This is completely unnecessary in the time of wheels and touchpads and I already miss it everywhere else.
- acqq 8y ago
  > This is completely unnecessary It is completely necessary for me to have “move one page up on click.”
  - zeotroph 8y ago
    But, that is what PgUp/PgDown are for on the keyboard, no? When you are navigating in these discrete steps why use the mouse, which is excellent for continuous input. If I click on something, I want to go THERE, not in the direction of it. "But we have always done it in this (imo illogical) way" is just being stubborn.
    - acqq 8y ago
      > that is what PgUp/PgDown are for on the keyboard, no? Definitely no: If I have a hand on the mouse I surely don't want to lift it and hunt for the PgUp or PgDown just to move one page up or down. And no, I don't want to go "there" if it's actually "somewhere" in the middle of whatever, if I just want to see the previous or the next page. Going "there" is much less frequent operation than moving to the next or the previous page.
      - zeotroph 8y ago
        So, that means a PgDown button (I guess it is mostly that direction) on the mouse is missing. The thumb button which most mice have and are mapped to forward/backwards could be remapped to that. Or a mouse gesture? FoxyGestures, a Firefox addon, has a "Scroll Down" action.
XCSme 8y ago
I am working on a HTML5 game which has a list of rooms, list which has a scrollbar. It looks as ugly as it can be with the default scrollbar when everything else is neatly designed and has a specific theme, it ruins the immersion and reminds you hey, this is just a browser game, not a real game. I am not saying that all the sites should have custom scrollbars, but there are definitely use cases for it.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > it ruins the immersion and reminds you hey, this is just a browser game, not a real game. If you're uncomfortable with the user realizing the game is a browser game, why did you make it in a browser?
  - NathanCH 8y ago
    There are plenty of UI which allows users to scroll but does not feature a scroll bar. This is standard on mobile operating systems.
  - preommr 8y ago
    Implying there's some intrinsic reason browsers can't have customizeable scrollbars.
    - lugg 8y ago
      It's called usability through famiarity. Customising UI elements is a usability antipattern. Per [1], predictability and familiarity are key in creating usable interfaces. Making things look nice "because you can" doesn't necessarily mean you should. > When designing your interface, try to be consistent and predictable in your choice of interface elements. Whether they are aware of it or not, users have become familiar with elements acting in a certain way, so choosing to adopt those elements when appropriate will help with task completion, efficiency, and satisfaction. [1] https://www.usability.gov/how-to-and-tools/methods/user-interface-elements.html https://www.usability.gov/how-to-and-tools/methods/user-inte...
Bjartr 8y ago
You could use a css customizing extension or create your own userscript to force all scrollbar related css attributes to the `inital` value.
cerved 8y ago
Every other browser allows styling scrollbars using CSS. Firefox was the only one that didn't and there's a 15 year old open bug on bugzilla about it. The work around was to use JavaScript, just to make it work on Firefox. It can now be implemented in CSS, which makes it really easy for you to disable or change your preference as well putting the responsibility of style on CSS and not some annoying JavaScript.

mindcrime 8y ago

Agreed. There's really little or no good reason for a website to be able to change the scrollbars at all.

Zekio 8y ago
on Windows you will always have a white scrollbar even with dark theme enabled in Windows and firefox, and if you are then on a dark website the scrollbar is basically a beacon of light
- zapzupnz 8y ago
  Given that WebKit recently added "Dark Mode" support, it would likely be sufficient for Firefox to do the same and simply recolour the scrollbar itself, rather than trusting CSS artists to do it sanely and properly.
  - bastawhiz 8y ago
    You're assuming the only scrollbar is on the far right-hand side of the screen. There are plenty of inline scroll bars and scrollbars in parts of the UI that are not adjacent to "native" chrome. Always using the OS default does not make for a good experience.
    - zapzupnz 8y ago
      I don’t see in anything I wrote any implication that I assumed anything about what scroll bars needed or would be themed. A browser-wide scrollbar styling system, able to be opted into by use of particular CSS, doesn’t imply anything about whether we are talking about just one scroll bar or all of them. I also disagree about native controls not always being the best solution when it comes to scrolling. We all know how annoying it is when a page jacks scrolling; it’s a usability nightmare that makes pages’ scroll behaviour harder to predict. We don’t need to add to the usability issues by letting one of the most fundamental pieces of chrome in a web browser get jacked even further than the already impermissible state.
      - bastawhiz 8y ago
        Changing the appearance and the behavior of scrollbars (or replacing them entirely as you mention) are very different concerns.
        zapzupnz 8y ago
        Not really, it's the same concern; the potential for gratuitous, superfluous, or regressive modification of a stable and predictable user interface element that is representative of the most fundamental of actions when it comes to long-form document-based design: scrolling.

Zekio 8y ago

you can disable it in about:config by searching scrollbar if that has your fancy :)

chrisseaton 8y ago

> because “everyone has trackpads”. No, they don’t. Don't most mice have scrolling as well? It's not about trackpads.

JohnFen 8y ago
They do, but they don't eliminate the need for scrollbars that can actually be used.
51lver 8y ago
I have a trackpoint with no 3rd button. Many trackballs don't have scroll wheels. Many folks use arrow keys and space, shiftspace, pgup/down to navigate too and those require nice visible scroll bars that move the whole document to navigate effectively. Long story short, stop fscking with accessibility. If your js code or libraries handles ANY input events, you'd better watch yourself because you're venturing into specialized-interface-by-and-for-assholes-land.
bowersbros 8y ago
Things like large documents don't make that any easier though. Scrolling through a large document can take a while, but a scrollbar allows you to get to somewhere else often quite a lot faster. Imagine you cmd + F a phrase and there are 200 responses separated into like 4 chunks of a document. It can be useful to scroll to the start of each chunk to get the context of them.
bm98 8y ago
Most new mice, yes. I use an original Logitech MouseMan 3-button mouse with no scroll-wheel. I realize I'm an outlier, but no mouse has ever come close in terms of comfort for me - so I continue to use it, and life has been just fine until the advent of the Overlay Scroll Bar. I realize the benefits of the Overlay Scroll Bar to the majority of users who have scroll-wheels. But it sure would be nice if there was an easy way to revert back to the Normal Scroll Bar ("Classic" scroll bar?). You know, the wide bar that scrolls down exactly one page-length if you click outside of the bar? I've spent plenty of time Googling and in "about:config" and exporting environment variables like GTK_OVERLAY_SCROLLING=0 to no avail.

kps 8y ago

I just want working page-up and page-down keys.

dictum 8y ago

Time for FF's balance of configurability and reasonable defaults to shine: the about:config properties to edit are `layout.css.scrollbar-color.enabled` and `layout.css.scrollbar-width.enabled`.

mintplant 8y ago
If you prefer config files to ad-hoc configuration in the GUI, you can set up a user.js file [0] with your preferred about:config tweaks. [0] http://kb.mozillazine.org/User.js_file http://kb.mozillazine.org/User.js_file
AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
I am pretty sure that changing it would be a bad idea if you care about your privacy.
- RussianCow 8y ago
  Why? Is there even a way to test whether this is enabled?
  - QasimK 8y ago
    Yes, scroll bars are already used to identify which operating system you are using as their width varies between systems.
    - baroffoos 8y ago
      Your user agent already does this.
      - AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
        Which is why many privacy-minded people change their user agent to match the most popular one, especially the OS part.
  - 8y ago

zeotroph 8y ago

> Scrollbar One thing I like about the Firefox (Gtk?) scrollbar is that it finally removed (a few version ago already) the "Click on it somewhere, but it doesn't move there but just acts like PgDown/Up", i.e. the non-warping to the exact click position but just inching towards it. This is completely unnecessary in the time of wheels and touchpads and I already miss it everywhere else.

acqq 8y ago
> This is completely unnecessary It is completely necessary for me to have “move one page up on click.”
- zeotroph 8y ago
  But, that is what PgUp/PgDown are for on the keyboard, no? When you are navigating in these discrete steps why use the mouse, which is excellent for continuous input. If I click on something, I want to go THERE, not in the direction of it. "But we have always done it in this (imo illogical) way" is just being stubborn.
  - acqq 8y ago
    > that is what PgUp/PgDown are for on the keyboard, no? Definitely no: If I have a hand on the mouse I surely don't want to lift it and hunt for the PgUp or PgDown just to move one page up or down. And no, I don't want to go "there" if it's actually "somewhere" in the middle of whatever, if I just want to see the previous or the next page. Going "there" is much less frequent operation than moving to the next or the previous page.
    - zeotroph 8y ago
      So, that means a PgDown button (I guess it is mostly that direction) on the mouse is missing. The thumb button which most mice have and are mapped to forward/backwards could be remapped to that. Or a mouse gesture? FoxyGestures, a Firefox addon, has a "Scroll Down" action.

XCSme 8y ago

I am working on a HTML5 game which has a list of rooms, list which has a scrollbar. It looks as ugly as it can be with the default scrollbar when everything else is neatly designed and has a specific theme, it ruins the immersion and reminds you hey, this is just a browser game, not a real game. I am not saying that all the sites should have custom scrollbars, but there are definitely use cases for it.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> it ruins the immersion and reminds you hey, this is just a browser game, not a real game. If you're uncomfortable with the user realizing the game is a browser game, why did you make it in a browser?
- NathanCH 8y ago
  There are plenty of UI which allows users to scroll but does not feature a scroll bar. This is standard on mobile operating systems.
- preommr 8y ago
  Implying there's some intrinsic reason browsers can't have customizeable scrollbars.
  - lugg 8y ago
    It's called usability through famiarity. Customising UI elements is a usability antipattern. Per [1], predictability and familiarity are key in creating usable interfaces. Making things look nice "because you can" doesn't necessarily mean you should. > When designing your interface, try to be consistent and predictable in your choice of interface elements. Whether they are aware of it or not, users have become familiar with elements acting in a certain way, so choosing to adopt those elements when appropriate will help with task completion, efficiency, and satisfaction. [1] https://www.usability.gov/how-to-and-tools/methods/user-interface-elements.html https://www.usability.gov/how-to-and-tools/methods/user-inte...

Bjartr 8y ago

You could use a css customizing extension or create your own userscript to force all scrollbar related css attributes to the `inital` value.

cerved 8y ago

Every other browser allows styling scrollbars using CSS. Firefox was the only one that didn't and there's a 15 year old open bug on bugzilla about it. The work around was to use JavaScript, just to make it work on Firefox. It can now be implemented in CSS, which makes it really easy for you to disable or change your preference as well putting the responsibility of style on CSS and not some annoying JavaScript.