6 ms·

For Apple, I find almost the opposite in terms of forced development. If I want to write a program on macOS, I can expect the porting effort to Linux to be simp

For Apple, I find almost the opposite in terms of forced development. If I want to write a program on macOS, I can expect the porting effort to Linux to be simple if not trivial, thanks to UNIX. Compare that to Windows, which has ostensibly less control, but I continue to find to be a massive pain to develop for. With that said, if macOS lost UNIX, I’d be done.

adrianN 8y ago
Apple refuses to update their command line tools because of the license. The bash I have here is more than ten years old. It's only a matter of time before things diverge enough to make porting a major pain.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  I dont understand this, they already share some of the source to several OS components. Do you care to elaborate a bit on this? Is there some GPL clause or something that became too risky for Apple or something? How do BSD projects get by with the newer licenses aside from already being open source it doesnt seem to affect their underlying license...
  - sanxiyn 8y ago
    Allegedly, Apple hates GPLv3.
    - sjwright 8y ago
      And it’s worth remembering: Linus Torvalds hates GPLv3 as well. Meanwhile, updating gnu tools is pretty straightforward with homebrew, so the consequences of this view are minimal—for me, so far.
      - belorn 8y ago
        Linus Torvalds has in multiple talks said that he does not hate gplv3. He thinks limiting DRM (tivo case) in the license is something he do not want for the kernel, and he strongly disliked the method where GPLv2 automatically upgrades to GPLv3 with the "or any newer version", since his view is that GPLv3 and GPLv2 is two very different licenses because of the DRM clause. During the debconf talk, he said that describing gplv3 as being similar to gplv2 was immoral. Here is a direct quote "I actually think version 3 is a fine license" - Linus Torvalds FSF view DRM as just being a physical version of a legal restriction, and they often quote laws that makes it illegal to bypass DRM as proof that DRM is also a legal restriction. Thus in GPLv3 they treat them as identical and they don't see it as a change in how the GPL license work. Linus strongly disagree on this. This is very different from the Apple case and I doubt anyone can find similar quotes from them.
    - Someone 8y ago
      Their lawyers likely strongly advised against bundling GPLv3 software with their OS because there is a non-zero risk that some judge, somewhere, some day, will claim that requires them to release the source of all their software under GPLv3. I think that, if GPLv3 ever gets sufficiently tested in courts all around the world (which is highly unlikely) that stance could change.
      - jononor 8y ago
        Why would GPLv3 be substantially different risk than GPLv2?
        rbanffy 8y ago
        GPLv3 has anti-TiVoization and patent protection built in.
        jononor 8y ago
        Yes, but that doesn't make it more likely that anyone would have to open source their apps or OS?
        rbanffy 8y ago
        No, but those fears weren't rational to begin with.
    - tzakrajs 8y ago
      You would hate it too if you had to open source the entirety of your OS or application because a GPLv3 COPYING file was floating about in there.
      - oblio 8y ago
        When they included Bash and other GNU tools in their OS to draw developers to their platform, while said platform was dying, they didn't hate that...
    - StreamBright 8y ago
      Not only Apple but almost every enterprise.
  - teddyh 8y ago
    More details here: http://meta.ath0.com/2012/02/05/apples-great-gpl-purge/ http://meta.ath0.com/2012/02/05/apples-great-gpl-purge/ […] Anyway, the message is pretty obvious: Apple won’t ship anything that’s licensed under GPL v3 on OS X. Now, why is that? There are two big changes in GPL v3. The first is that it explicitly prohibits patent lawsuits against people for actually using the GPL-licensed software you ship. The second is that it carefully prevents TiVoization, locking down hardware so that people can’t actually run the software they want. So, which of those things are they planning for OS X, eh? I’m also intrigued to see how far they are prepared to go with this. They already annoyed and inconvenienced a lot of people with the Samba and GCC removal. Having wooed so many developers to the Mac in the last decade, are they really prepared to throw away all that goodwill by shipping obsolete tools and making it a pain in the ass to upgrade them?
- akulbe 8y ago
  I'm not an expert, so forgive me if I'm way off base here… but isn't this exactly the need that homebrew fills?
  - adrianN 8y ago
    That's similar to saying that Cygwin or MSYS or MinGW or WSL is filling that need on Windows.
    - rbanffy 8y ago
      The main difference would be in that, since Windows has no native Unix environment, all these tools are added functionality while on the Mac, it overrides built-in functionality and can make things go a bit weird.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Just like it doesn't have a native Win32 environment, rather different personalities built on top of a common layer. UNIX environment on Windows is just like how IBM and Unisys mainframes deal with it.
        Koshkin 8y ago
        Indeed. (Except that "WSL" should be read as "Windows Substitute for Linux.")
        pjmlp 8y ago
        I don't remember FreeBSD or illumos calling their syscall compatibility layer for Linux Substitute.
        Koshkin 8y ago
        Nor were they called “services for Linux.”
Meai 8y ago
You are speaking from inside the walled garden here, from the outside the effort of porting to macOS is monumental. The naive way is: I have to buy hardware, learn new Apple specific languages, learn a new OS, learn a new IDE, be compliant with their app store policies, distribution etc. (which applies to Windows now too I suppose).
- reikonomusha 8y ago
  I suppose I’m an outlier then. I just use normal UNIX tools. No Xcode, no IDE’s, no proprietary toolchains. Maybe my programs are too boring. :) There are some portability quirks for sure, though.
  - Koshkin 8y ago
    Why not Linux, then? Why pay "the Apple tax"?
    - aoeusnth1 8y ago
      (not the OP). I develop linux services on a Mac, connected remotely to a linux workstation. My company pays the Apple tax, and the hardware is nicer. Plus, my friends use iMessage. I tried using a company Linux device only to find that its graphics drivers weren't supported, the 4k scaling didn't work nicely without spending ~30 minutes looking up how to do it the hard way, and it didn't play nicely when connected to a normal 1080 monitor. I returned the device after (thankfully) it failed.
  - xnyan 8y ago
    If you don't mind me asking, if not developing for ios and need xcode for appstore access, why are you on mac?
- dkarras 8y ago
  Except for "I have to buy hardware", that's... just not true. Even buying the hardware can be circumvented but let's stay strictly legal here. As OP said, it's unix, at least extremely unix-y so you don't have to learn apple specific languages. You can choose to do so for better integration to their system and vision and UI idioms (and should I say, macOS native applications are the BEST thought out applications you'll ever have the pleasure of using in user experience side). But whatever code you run in Linux will be trivially ported to macOS. Learning a new OS is... I mean it is a new thing to learn but it isn't like you didn't learn the OS you are using at some point. Unless you think that there should be one and only one OS for the entire universe that everyone uses, this is an irrelevant point. For the IDE, again, you don't have to, but you can choose to learn. Most popular IDEs natively work on macOS just fine, and you can just use your terminal like in any unix system, use your build scripts etc. For macOS, you don't have to be compliant with anything, you can distribute your apps the old fashioned way. If you want to be in their dedicated store though, yeah they have rules. I think that makes sense. For iOS, that store is the only way to distribute software and your points would make a bit more sense. But I actually am on the fence about the merit of the walled garden approach of iOS. Android ecosystem is a cesspool of malware. I can deal with malware on my computer. My computer has the resources etc. And computers are my job. But my mobile phone IMO has to run trusted code, I will happily delegate some standards to a central body as long as they manage it sufficiently well. When I install an app, I want to be sure that there are reasonable protections about what they can and can't access in my phone. I take my phone with me everywhere, it knows A LOT about me. I can't disassemble all binaries I use to make sure they aren't doing anything shady. Apple has automated tests for this stuff. I know it can't be bulletproof but it is something. They are fast to respond to exploits and they manage to keep their platform secure. If a "free for all" device was popular, I'd still manage. I'd just have to be EXTRA EXTRA paranoid about what I install in my phone and it would decrease my productivity and quality of life quite a bit. That I can manage. But the whole ecosystem would be A LOT less secure. Not many people would exercise discipline. Viruses, malware, rootkits everywhere, billions of people carrying them in their pockets everywhere. My inclination right now is that that would be a worse deal right now for the world. While Centralisation and corporate power is something I generally despise, in this case (mobile OS, walled garden, corporate control over what apps can and can't do on their platform), I think can see the merit as long as they don't majorly screw it up.
amelius 8y ago
> For Apple, I find almost the opposite in terms of forced development. If I want to write a program on macOS, I can expect the porting effort to Linux to be simple if not trivial, thanks to UNIX. Reminds me of the days when I had to buy Windows to test if my website worked on IE. In the case of Apple, I have to buy the hardware too!
pjmlp 8y ago
Historical accident of rebooting Copland with NeXTSTEP, which wasn't even relevant for NeXT beyond bringing developers into NeXTSTEP world. The real Apple developer culture is around Objective-C and Swift tooling, alongside OS Frameworks, none of them related to UNIX in any form. In case you haven't been paying attention the new network stack isn't even based on POSIX sockets.
Koshkin 8y ago
Yes, you can write a UNIX program that will run on MacOS. You can even use Autotools and X Window API. On the other hand, a usual MacOS application is not "a UNIX program."

adrianN 8y ago

Apple refuses to update their command line tools because of the license. The bash I have here is more than ten years old. It's only a matter of time before things diverge enough to make porting a major pain.

giancarlostoro 8y ago
I dont understand this, they already share some of the source to several OS components. Do you care to elaborate a bit on this? Is there some GPL clause or something that became too risky for Apple or something? How do BSD projects get by with the newer licenses aside from already being open source it doesnt seem to affect their underlying license...
- sanxiyn 8y ago
  Allegedly, Apple hates GPLv3.
  - sjwright 8y ago
    And it’s worth remembering: Linus Torvalds hates GPLv3 as well. Meanwhile, updating gnu tools is pretty straightforward with homebrew, so the consequences of this view are minimal—for me, so far.
    - belorn 8y ago
      Linus Torvalds has in multiple talks said that he does not hate gplv3. He thinks limiting DRM (tivo case) in the license is something he do not want for the kernel, and he strongly disliked the method where GPLv2 automatically upgrades to GPLv3 with the "or any newer version", since his view is that GPLv3 and GPLv2 is two very different licenses because of the DRM clause. During the debconf talk, he said that describing gplv3 as being similar to gplv2 was immoral. Here is a direct quote "I actually think version 3 is a fine license" - Linus Torvalds FSF view DRM as just being a physical version of a legal restriction, and they often quote laws that makes it illegal to bypass DRM as proof that DRM is also a legal restriction. Thus in GPLv3 they treat them as identical and they don't see it as a change in how the GPL license work. Linus strongly disagree on this. This is very different from the Apple case and I doubt anyone can find similar quotes from them.
  - Someone 8y ago
    Their lawyers likely strongly advised against bundling GPLv3 software with their OS because there is a non-zero risk that some judge, somewhere, some day, will claim that requires them to release the source of all their software under GPLv3. I think that, if GPLv3 ever gets sufficiently tested in courts all around the world (which is highly unlikely) that stance could change.
    - jononor 8y ago
      Why would GPLv3 be substantially different risk than GPLv2?
      - rbanffy 8y ago
        GPLv3 has anti-TiVoization and patent protection built in.
        jononor 8y ago
        Yes, but that doesn't make it more likely that anyone would have to open source their apps or OS?
        rbanffy 8y ago
        No, but those fears weren't rational to begin with.
  - tzakrajs 8y ago
    You would hate it too if you had to open source the entirety of your OS or application because a GPLv3 COPYING file was floating about in there.
    - oblio 8y ago
      When they included Bash and other GNU tools in their OS to draw developers to their platform, while said platform was dying, they didn't hate that...
  - StreamBright 8y ago
    Not only Apple but almost every enterprise.
- teddyh 8y ago
  More details here: http://meta.ath0.com/2012/02/05/apples-great-gpl-purge/ http://meta.ath0.com/2012/02/05/apples-great-gpl-purge/ […] Anyway, the message is pretty obvious: Apple won’t ship anything that’s licensed under GPL v3 on OS X. Now, why is that? There are two big changes in GPL v3. The first is that it explicitly prohibits patent lawsuits against people for actually using the GPL-licensed software you ship. The second is that it carefully prevents TiVoization, locking down hardware so that people can’t actually run the software they want. So, which of those things are they planning for OS X, eh? I’m also intrigued to see how far they are prepared to go with this. They already annoyed and inconvenienced a lot of people with the Samba and GCC removal. Having wooed so many developers to the Mac in the last decade, are they really prepared to throw away all that goodwill by shipping obsolete tools and making it a pain in the ass to upgrade them?
akulbe 8y ago
I'm not an expert, so forgive me if I'm way off base here… but isn't this exactly the need that homebrew fills?
- adrianN 8y ago
  That's similar to saying that Cygwin or MSYS or MinGW or WSL is filling that need on Windows.
  - rbanffy 8y ago
    The main difference would be in that, since Windows has no native Unix environment, all these tools are added functionality while on the Mac, it overrides built-in functionality and can make things go a bit weird.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Just like it doesn't have a native Win32 environment, rather different personalities built on top of a common layer. UNIX environment on Windows is just like how IBM and Unisys mainframes deal with it.
      - Koshkin 8y ago
        Indeed. (Except that "WSL" should be read as "Windows Substitute for Linux.")
        pjmlp 8y ago
        I don't remember FreeBSD or illumos calling their syscall compatibility layer for Linux Substitute.
        Koshkin 8y ago
        Nor were they called “services for Linux.”

Meai 8y ago

You are speaking from inside the walled garden here, from the outside the effort of porting to macOS is monumental. The naive way is: I have to buy hardware, learn new Apple specific languages, learn a new OS, learn a new IDE, be compliant with their app store policies, distribution etc. (which applies to Windows now too I suppose).

reikonomusha 8y ago
I suppose I’m an outlier then. I just use normal UNIX tools. No Xcode, no IDE’s, no proprietary toolchains. Maybe my programs are too boring. :) There are some portability quirks for sure, though.
- Koshkin 8y ago
  Why not Linux, then? Why pay "the Apple tax"?
  - aoeusnth1 8y ago
    (not the OP). I develop linux services on a Mac, connected remotely to a linux workstation. My company pays the Apple tax, and the hardware is nicer. Plus, my friends use iMessage. I tried using a company Linux device only to find that its graphics drivers weren't supported, the 4k scaling didn't work nicely without spending ~30 minutes looking up how to do it the hard way, and it didn't play nicely when connected to a normal 1080 monitor. I returned the device after (thankfully) it failed.
- xnyan 8y ago
  If you don't mind me asking, if not developing for ios and need xcode for appstore access, why are you on mac?
dkarras 8y ago
Except for "I have to buy hardware", that's... just not true. Even buying the hardware can be circumvented but let's stay strictly legal here. As OP said, it's unix, at least extremely unix-y so you don't have to learn apple specific languages. You can choose to do so for better integration to their system and vision and UI idioms (and should I say, macOS native applications are the BEST thought out applications you'll ever have the pleasure of using in user experience side). But whatever code you run in Linux will be trivially ported to macOS. Learning a new OS is... I mean it is a new thing to learn but it isn't like you didn't learn the OS you are using at some point. Unless you think that there should be one and only one OS for the entire universe that everyone uses, this is an irrelevant point. For the IDE, again, you don't have to, but you can choose to learn. Most popular IDEs natively work on macOS just fine, and you can just use your terminal like in any unix system, use your build scripts etc. For macOS, you don't have to be compliant with anything, you can distribute your apps the old fashioned way. If you want to be in their dedicated store though, yeah they have rules. I think that makes sense. For iOS, that store is the only way to distribute software and your points would make a bit more sense. But I actually am on the fence about the merit of the walled garden approach of iOS. Android ecosystem is a cesspool of malware. I can deal with malware on my computer. My computer has the resources etc. And computers are my job. But my mobile phone IMO has to run trusted code, I will happily delegate some standards to a central body as long as they manage it sufficiently well. When I install an app, I want to be sure that there are reasonable protections about what they can and can't access in my phone. I take my phone with me everywhere, it knows A LOT about me. I can't disassemble all binaries I use to make sure they aren't doing anything shady. Apple has automated tests for this stuff. I know it can't be bulletproof but it is something. They are fast to respond to exploits and they manage to keep their platform secure. If a "free for all" device was popular, I'd still manage. I'd just have to be EXTRA EXTRA paranoid about what I install in my phone and it would decrease my productivity and quality of life quite a bit. That I can manage. But the whole ecosystem would be A LOT less secure. Not many people would exercise discipline. Viruses, malware, rootkits everywhere, billions of people carrying them in their pockets everywhere. My inclination right now is that that would be a worse deal right now for the world. While Centralisation and corporate power is something I generally despise, in this case (mobile OS, walled garden, corporate control over what apps can and can't do on their platform), I think can see the merit as long as they don't majorly screw it up.

amelius 8y ago

> For Apple, I find almost the opposite in terms of forced development. If I want to write a program on macOS, I can expect the porting effort to Linux to be simple if not trivial, thanks to UNIX. Reminds me of the days when I had to buy Windows to test if my website worked on IE. In the case of Apple, I have to buy the hardware too!

pjmlp 8y ago

Historical accident of rebooting Copland with NeXTSTEP, which wasn't even relevant for NeXT beyond bringing developers into NeXTSTEP world. The real Apple developer culture is around Objective-C and Swift tooling, alongside OS Frameworks, none of them related to UNIX in any form. In case you haven't been paying attention the new network stack isn't even based on POSIX sockets.

Koshkin 8y ago

Yes, you can write a UNIX program that will run on MacOS. You can even use Autotools and X Window API. On the other hand, a usual MacOS application is not "a UNIX program."