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NextCloud, ForgeFed, ValueFlows, MoodleNet, Pleroma, Mastodon, PixelFed ("soon"), PeerTube, WriteFreely, Anancus... (so many more) The ActivityPub grassroots i

by cjslep 8y ago

NextCloud, ForgeFed, ValueFlows, MoodleNet, Pleroma, Mastodon, PixelFed ("soon"), PeerTube, WriteFreely, Anancus... (so many more) The ActivityPub grassroots is slowly growing.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
My hope is that as the fediverse grows, support becomes a must-have feature for any new social site/app. A nascent social site doesn't need to attract an initial core community if it can plug you into one that already exists.
api 8y ago
How will these systems defend against spam, click farms, troll armies, and AI assisted or powered sock puppeting when they get big and/or influential? This is usually what kills federated and decentralized communication platforms. They can work fine as long as they are too niche for bad actors to target, but as soon as there is money to be made or political influence to be had from targeting them they are destroyed by abuse. It's a major threat for the centralized platforms, and those are easier to defend. Today's Internet is a battlefield in a global information war and new systems must be designed accordingly. Unfortunately most efforts that I see in these areas still make optimistic assumptions and underestimate the sophistication and determination of bad actors.
- Kye 8y ago
  Instances that don't police this get silenced or defederated. Much of the fediverse is made up of small invite-only instances that share information on bad actors like this. The bigger ones have mod teams and are generally run by people who don't equivocate on keeping bad actors to protect ad revenue. edit: This is, at a minimum, a good experiment to see if these kinds of propaganda are inherent to social media or only possible because ad-funded silos are loathe to ban obvious bad actors and not enable them with their tools. I'm on the side of blaming Facebook and Twitter. They didn't create propaganda, but they sure did make it cheap and easy.
  - api 8y ago
    That's a start, but my concern is that the volunteer militia will get swamped and burnt out when the real attacks come. Right now Mastodon and other ActivityPub platforms are too small for a Cambridge Analytica / Russian FSB or other similar caliber actors to bother with. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. are where most of the users are so that's where most of the effort will go. If these platforms ever "tip" into mainstream adoption, prepare to be targeted by organized crime gangs running financial scams, nation states, corporate PR firms, and other organizations with hundred million to billion dollar budgets. What I really wanted to do was to stress the fact that this is a battlefield. One of the trends I see in the early 21st century is the dematerialization of warfare. Wars can now be fought entirely online. Governments can be toppled. Economies can be destroyed. Corporations can be imploded. All this can be done with a mixture of cyber attacks and propaganda. As a result we are seeing the redirection of military budgets toward these things. The sort of spam and amateur brigading that most volunteers are used to dealing with on social forums and platforms is nothing compared to what the big social media platforms are facing now and that is nothing compared to what's coming. Billions of dollars are currently being spent by PR firms, advertisers, and governments to develop increasingly advanced AI and big data powered propaganda platforms to weaponize the Internet. In the future we'll probably see fully automated AI driven propaganda, what I've started calling "con artistry at scale." Federated and decentralized platforms are very vulnerable in ways that silos are not, and this has to be thought about. It's easy to create quiet apparently friendly and normal Sybil nodes that passively suck down data and then use that data to mount active attacks from other directions. Volunteers may fight active attacks, but they may have no way of knowing which apparently normal nodes are actually passive participants in those attacks. Also keep in mind that "attacks only get better." With each attack the attackers learn, and it's generally easier to attack than to defend (in cyber-security in general, not just here).
    - sascha_sl 8y ago
      I don't think the important question to ask here is if it can survive, it's how can it survive. These sort of tools should be in the commons anyway, just like social media. Monolithic social media is not sustainable and often times quite harmful because it optimizes for engagement. The Fediverse will deal with this one way or another, worst case everyone switches to whitelisting. I've been in favor of adding a limit - once you can remove by deleting a few lines of code of course - to the number of users an instance can hold. Purely for symbolism. It worked when Elasticsearch was added to Mastodon and a "viewable_by" property was added so you could only search for things you had engaged with.
- cjslep 8y ago
  Given the kinds of communities that have flocked to the fediverse the past year, moderation tools have always been a top priority of apps adopting ActivityPub. Features have been killed due to the potential for abuse, too.

by cjslep 8y ago

NextCloud, ForgeFed, ValueFlows, MoodleNet, Pleroma, Mastodon, PixelFed ("soon"), PeerTube, WriteFreely, Anancus... (so many more) The ActivityPub grassroots is slowly growing.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago

My hope is that as the fediverse grows, support becomes a must-have feature for any new social site/app. A nascent social site doesn't need to attract an initial core community if it can plug you into one that already exists.

api 8y ago

How will these systems defend against spam, click farms, troll armies, and AI assisted or powered sock puppeting when they get big and/or influential? This is usually what kills federated and decentralized communication platforms. They can work fine as long as they are too niche for bad actors to target, but as soon as there is money to be made or political influence to be had from targeting them they are destroyed by abuse. It's a major threat for the centralized platforms, and those are easier to defend. Today's Internet is a battlefield in a global information war and new systems must be designed accordingly. Unfortunately most efforts that I see in these areas still make optimistic assumptions and underestimate the sophistication and determination of bad actors.

Kye 8y ago
Instances that don't police this get silenced or defederated. Much of the fediverse is made up of small invite-only instances that share information on bad actors like this. The bigger ones have mod teams and are generally run by people who don't equivocate on keeping bad actors to protect ad revenue. edit: This is, at a minimum, a good experiment to see if these kinds of propaganda are inherent to social media or only possible because ad-funded silos are loathe to ban obvious bad actors and not enable them with their tools. I'm on the side of blaming Facebook and Twitter. They didn't create propaganda, but they sure did make it cheap and easy.
- api 8y ago
  That's a start, but my concern is that the volunteer militia will get swamped and burnt out when the real attacks come. Right now Mastodon and other ActivityPub platforms are too small for a Cambridge Analytica / Russian FSB or other similar caliber actors to bother with. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. are where most of the users are so that's where most of the effort will go. If these platforms ever "tip" into mainstream adoption, prepare to be targeted by organized crime gangs running financial scams, nation states, corporate PR firms, and other organizations with hundred million to billion dollar budgets. What I really wanted to do was to stress the fact that this is a battlefield. One of the trends I see in the early 21st century is the dematerialization of warfare. Wars can now be fought entirely online. Governments can be toppled. Economies can be destroyed. Corporations can be imploded. All this can be done with a mixture of cyber attacks and propaganda. As a result we are seeing the redirection of military budgets toward these things. The sort of spam and amateur brigading that most volunteers are used to dealing with on social forums and platforms is nothing compared to what the big social media platforms are facing now and that is nothing compared to what's coming. Billions of dollars are currently being spent by PR firms, advertisers, and governments to develop increasingly advanced AI and big data powered propaganda platforms to weaponize the Internet. In the future we'll probably see fully automated AI driven propaganda, what I've started calling "con artistry at scale." Federated and decentralized platforms are very vulnerable in ways that silos are not, and this has to be thought about. It's easy to create quiet apparently friendly and normal Sybil nodes that passively suck down data and then use that data to mount active attacks from other directions. Volunteers may fight active attacks, but they may have no way of knowing which apparently normal nodes are actually passive participants in those attacks. Also keep in mind that "attacks only get better." With each attack the attackers learn, and it's generally easier to attack than to defend (in cyber-security in general, not just here).
  - sascha_sl 8y ago
    I don't think the important question to ask here is if it can survive, it's how can it survive. These sort of tools should be in the commons anyway, just like social media. Monolithic social media is not sustainable and often times quite harmful because it optimizes for engagement. The Fediverse will deal with this one way or another, worst case everyone switches to whitelisting. I've been in favor of adding a limit - once you can remove by deleting a few lines of code of course - to the number of users an instance can hold. Purely for symbolism. It worked when Elasticsearch was added to Mastodon and a "viewable_by" property was added so you could only search for things you had engaged with.
cjslep 8y ago
Given the kinds of communities that have flocked to the fediverse the past year, moderation tools have always been a top priority of apps adopting ActivityPub. Features have been killed due to the potential for abuse, too.