18 ms·

LED Strain

162 points by profdithering 8y ago

yc2051 8y ago
The LED tubes that are being used to replace the florescent tubes are much brighter! This could also be a source of migraines.
JKCalhoun 8y ago
Interesting. Reading some of the comments they really run the gamut (no pun intended). It's reassuring to see though that people are starting to pay attention to this. For myself, it is the flicker (PWM) of some LED drivers that I am uncomfortable with. I went through a few different brands of LED track lights before finding one where I could perceive no flicker. Similarly for LED lightning in the garage. For the kitchen I had a need for rope lighting and never did find LED/driver combo that I was happy with.
- copperx 8y ago
  Here's a trick that I've found useful: If you have a phone that can do slow motion capture (I have a Pixel 2, but this also works with an iPhone), go to a Home Depot or Lowe's and take a slo-mo (240fps) video of the LED bulbs they have on display. Most flicker horribly on playback, including the expensive Cree bulbs. The built-in LED spotlights that came with my house flicker like a rave concert whenever I capture a video in slo-mo. It's unsettling. Phillips LEDs, especially the Scene Switch bulbs, are flicker-free according to my tests. Surprisingly, older CFL bulbs flicker much less than LEDs.
  - lgleason 8y ago
    Great tip! I was surprised to see flicker even on my $10 a bulb Soraa lights which are top of the line, cri 92+ bulbs.
  - homero 8y ago
    CFL stay semi lit between cycles
    - akronate 8y ago
      Former product display engineer here. Many of those light bulb displays are only meant to demonstrate color temperature, and have completely different power systems on board then an actual light bulb. Usually the AC rectification will be removed and replaced with a DC/DC converter. This is mostly so that the display can be battery powered, because the availability of AC power on shelf is pretty hit or miss. I wouldn’t trust a display to indicate if the bulb has flicker or not.
      - copperx 8y ago
        The ones you're talking about demonstrate color temperature. The ones I've seen demonstrate the different light output of different brands and are connected to AC through a dimmer. You can play with the dimmer, and the price of the dimmer (each dimmer is different) and the bulb are displayed. I can't imagine those are battery powered or that every different bulb on display has been modified.
        fenwick67 8y ago
        This makes me wonder what the dimmer might be doing
  - Marsymars 8y ago
    Trying this at my house I don't see flicker from either my Philips warm glow bulbs, my Luminus Elite bulbs from Costco, or my Philips Hue lightstrips, but do see flicker with my Philips Hue A19 bulbs.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Well, if its a light in your house, it is within your control. What if it is at work? In the public transport? On the street? In a grocery store? At a customer? If you suffer from LED strain, it'll hamper your ability to function in society. All this reminds me a bit of Chuck in Better Call Saul (portrayed by Michael McKean). Regardless of what he exactly had, the man was ill.
  - __david__ 8y ago
    > Regardless of what he exactly had, the man was ill. Psychologically. Jimmy clearly demonstrated that his symptoms were all in his head.
fermentation 8y ago
This is interesting. If LED lights pulse so quickly that we don't notice the flashing, how are these people able to perceive it in a way that causes them pain?
- saurik 8y ago
  1) I think it is totally possible that small scale effects can bug you at different layers of your neural processing: just because it is extremely difficult for me to perceive a sound doesn't mean my ears aren't being affected by it and even providing a signal to my brain with the information where it is being discarded actively. 2) They often don't? A lot of LEDs flicker at something like 60Hz. Sure: if you stare at the light you might not notice it blinking, due to the limitations of the sensors in your eyes that can weirdly "get tired" of looking at the same thing for too long, but if you move your eyes across the light quickly you will see it blinking as now you are getting a broken dotted line carved into your vision. I find this maddening when there are such lights in my peripheral vision.
- jcims 8y ago
  The pain just comes regardless of whether or not you actually perceive why. For me it's kind of a cramping sensation at the back of my eyes and if there is no other light source (think christmas tree with cheap LED lights in an otherwise dark room) i will also get nauseous. If you're shifting your view/moving your head you can easily perceive the flashes.
- occamschainsaw 8y ago
  From my personal anecdata, they don't perceive the LED flashing directly. Objects in motion look weird under some LED lighting. Motion doesn't look smooth. It's like a weaker version of looking at moving objects under continuous camera flashes. The effect isn't super explicit, but moving objects become jerky. Try looking at a fan under the lighting of cheap Christmas LEDs.
  - Zak 8y ago
    More sensitive people will notice this effect even at a few kHz when an object lit by the source moves quickly or the viewer's vision pans across the light source. Even faster PWM up to a few kHz is visible to some people this way.
jcims 8y ago
Tis the season for PWM-induced headaches from cheap LED Christmas lights. I'm curious if folks in countries with 50Hz mains have the same issue. At that point it might be so bad that products without at least a full bridge rectifier would be unsellable.
- pitaj 8y ago
  Pretty sure PWM has nothing to do with cheap LED Christmas lights, beyond the basic "periodic wave resulting in flickering" idea.
  - jcims 8y ago
    Yeah it's probably an abuse of the term, but the effect is similar.
  - Tharkun 8y ago
    Many xmas lights flicker, even when they're not in blinking mode. With the really crappy ones it's often noticeable just by looking at them. With some of the slightly less crappy ones, it's easier to notice when looking at them out of the corner of your eye.
- yeutterg 8y ago
  Being aware of LED flicker and having been to places with both 50 Hz and 60 Hz AC, the places with 50 Hz are definitely worse. Extremely easy to perceive. Plus, it can be difficult to take photos under this light. Also, most of the "Edison-style" LED bulbs on the market use really cheap drivers. This is especially true outside the U.S. where you can get an LED "filament" with integrated half-wave rectifier. Thankfully UL is not allowing this crap in the U.S., but Edison-style LEDs here still (mostly) use very cheap driver topology. I'm on a mission to make lighting healthy. That's why I launched Bedtime Bulb: https://bedtimebulb.com/ https://bedtimebulb.com/ We have the lowest flicker of any bulb I have ever seen, even less than those claiming to be "flicker-free."
joecool1029 8y ago
'Is It Snappy?' is an iOS app that I use to diagnose whether LED bulbs are going to be shit in stores before I buy them. The IKEA bulbs have been cheap and decent. Old HN thread about the iOS app: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14023196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14023196
- Zak 8y ago
  You can also use any electronic rolling shutter with manual shutter speed - e.g. an Android phone with Camera2 API support and any of several camera apps with full manual settings. Set the shutter speed fairly high and preview or photograph the light source; flicker appears as scanlines, e.g. https://i.imgur.com/6kSoSfX.jpg https://i.imgur.com/6kSoSfX.jpg.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  I remember that thread and I still use the app! Recently I used it to determine the RPM of a rotating thing.
- wlesieutre 8y ago
  FWIW I bought four IKEA bulbs a few years ago and all of them made a low buzzing sound. Couldn't stand them anywhere but the bathroom. On the other hand, if you're looking for IoT light bulbs, their Tradfri system is a lot cheaper than Hue and I've read that their gateway has reasonable security practices and a good API. I would bet that those are more premium products that they wouldn't have released without making sure the electronics are quiet.
  - joecool1029 8y ago
    > FWIW I bought four IKEA bulbs a few years ago and all of them made a low buzzing sound. Couldn't stand them anywhere but the bathroom. LED or CFL? The latest batch of LED's they've only had about a year, the phosphors were switched around in their 1000 lumen (lm) and 1600lm E26 bulbs. They also advertise 100lm/W. These are not the junky dirt cheap 80lm/W 60W (800lm) equiv bulbs that you can pick up everywhere now (and I don't recommend for lighting a room). Also, watch for open boxes, I bought ~$200 in bulbs last time and one of the globe bulbs I bought was an obvious return and did not work.
Zak 8y ago
I hate lighting that flickers and will often notice it when other people do not. A few friends also notice flickering that most people don't detect. It takes tens of kHz before I won't notice a stop-motion effect like a strobe light with moving objects. LEDs do not have to flicker, but supplying low-ripple, constant-current DC power is not as cheap as ways of powering LEDs that do result in flicker.
- ksec 8y ago
  It got even worst when shopping malls decide to follow the trend of Green Power and LED lightning while buying some absolute crap to use. The results are there are places I can't go, worst one I will feel dizzy and may want to puke, lesser ones are super annoying I don't want to go. Problem is not everyone have this problem. I have this what I call latency intolerance syndrome.
  - yeutterg 8y ago
    This. I work in lighting and most of the people doing specification have never even heard of flicker. I usually get brushed off as some kind of impractical visionary. I am on a mission to make lighting healthy. That's why I made Bedtime Bulb: https://bedtimebulb.com/ https://bedtimebulb.com/ It has the lowest flicker I've ever seen in a bulb form factor—even less than those claiming to be "flicker-free."
    - remir 8y ago
      Went to your Amazon page, but it looks like the product isn't being sold? There's no way to buy it.
      - yeutterg 8y ago
        If you're in the U.S., try this link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H49N46N https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H49N46N If you're in Canada, try this link: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07H49N46N https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07H49N46N Let me know if you're still having trouble. Thanks!
sephamorr 8y ago
Let me shed some light on how you can drive LEDs from an AC power source. Naturally the worst techniques are usually the cheapest. To add to the complexity, directives like EnergyStar are aiming for power factor >0.9 in lighting above 3W. Maintaining high power factor (sin^2 input power) while having low lighting ripple (constant output power) requires some method of of storing energy. In methods 1,2,3 (and 4 depending), neither high power factor nor good lighting ripple is achieved, but very low cost is. Note that this info is for fairly low power LEDs. When you start having high power LEDs, regulations may require better power electronics, and the cost of the electronics might be amortized against the cost of the thermal cooling solution, etc, so you can make a more expensive electronics package. 1) By stringing ~ 180v of LEDs in series, and adding a current limiting resistor, you can drive the whole thing from the AC line. This has terrible variability (short light spikes every 60hz, and the thermal effects will change the LED properties so much that you could easily have 2x light intensity change as they warm up) and poor total illumination (as most of the cycle is spent with the AC waveform lower than the needed voltage. I haven't seen this in the wild, as option 2 isn't much more expensive and far better. 2) Use a single diode + capacitor rectifier to generate ~180v, and then have a similar string as in (1). This gives far better illumination (the capacitor will probably stay in the 160-180v range), but still has substantial 50/60hz ripple based on the size of the capacitor 3) Similar to (2) but use a full bridge rectifier instead of a single diode. As we are now driven by a rectified sine wave, the ripple voltage will ~half, and the ripple frequency will now be 100/120hz. 4) Many applications don't have ~60 LEDs in series, so you can't drive directly from the rectified AC line. The first stage is a rectifier, and a second stage most likely is a buck converter. The quality of the light out of this depends on how much you care about power factor. Chips like NCL30288, for example, maintain high power factor and fairly low lighting ripple. Most people won't notice this. 5) Particularly in higher power lighting, a separate power factor correcting stage achieves high power factor, and a second stage generates a constant current that should have exceptionally low luminous intensity ripple (if designed right). The ripple frequency should be in the hundreds of kHz as well, so I don't think any eye could notice this. And don't get started on dimming, I haven't found a product on the market that does non-phase cut dimming in <20W lights.
- frabert 8y ago
chris_overseas 8y ago
One interesting use for flickering LEDs is to help figure out the readout speed and clock rate of a digital camera sensor by exploiting the rolling shutter. Some discussion and experiments on this technique can be found here: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=23040.0 https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=23040.0
ksec 8y ago
Related Question: Is it possible for AM-OLED to be PWM free? ( Apart from setting it at maximum brightness ). Or would we have to stick to this until MicroLED comes.... which is still years away. Edit: I know W-OLED used by LG does not have PWM problem, but that is not for mobile uses.
- discreteevent 8y ago
  There are a few of interesting comments in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7uv6m3/iphone_x_uses_pulse_width_modulation_which_is_a/?st=JM3ZG0DU&sh=d12d2cf9 https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7uv6m3/iphone_x_uses... In summary they are saying that low frequency (240Hz) PWM is used for amoled because it decreases sub-pixel wear, it prevents color distortion, it's cheaper. So it looks like this won't change. I got an amoled phone and was surprised that the experience was worse than LCD (for me - it seems to depend a lot on the individual). Didn't even know that PWM was used until I started googling eystrain and amoled. Anyway, I sent the phone back.
  - ksec 8y ago
    That is sad, I wish they do 480hz and we could see if it strain as much.
- kmeier 8y ago
  Check notebookcheck's reviews to find AMOLED phones that eiter don't use PWM (I think it's only about 2 of them) or only use it above a certain brightness level. For example, the Axon 7 Mini. It seems those displays started to show up at around 2016. A small 60 Hz flicker will remain though, similar to as seen on OLED TVs.
fenwick67 8y ago
PWM is noticeable on most 7-segment displays (on microwaves etc). Clicking your teeth together makes it pretty apparent usually, the segments will appear to jump around. Try it at home!
- proaralyst 8y ago
  That's what that is. I never considered that those displays were strobing!
- kw71 8y ago
  This is not that. This is multiplexing and the purpose of it is to save i/o wires. If you film it with a high speed camera you will see something like one digit being lit at a time.
  - fenwick67 8y ago
    Yeah you're right, calling it PWM isn't really correct.
Fnoord 8y ago
In The Netherlands some cyclists have this brilliant idea to put their lights on flash/flicker. I suppose some think they'll be easier to get noticed. It is not allowed by law (the light has to be either constantly on, or it may be turned off if it isn't dark), it can trigger epilepsy, it is distracting, and it is selfish and not 'cool' at all. It also appears to be common in PC desktops to enable all kind of LEDs, without allowing them to be disabled. Especially in all kind of colours (which Razor dubbed 'Chroma'). Not my cup of tea, a waste of aesthetic and electricity but the worst thing about it is that I pay premium for such feature because it is deemed 'cool' by the target market. FWIW, I use a strong light in the morning to wake up. It doesn't flash.
- Tharkun 8y ago
  Belgium had similar rules for cyclists, but recently updated them. Cycling around like a strobing christmas tree is now allowed. sigh
- fingerlocks 8y ago
  Flashing bike lights are ubiquitous in the United States. I prefer them because I can distinguish a cyclist from what could be a slow car missing a tail light.
- arendtio 8y ago
  Well, I don't like those lights either, but calling it selfish, is kinda hard when you compare it to how many cyclists get killed every year because some motorist didn't see them.
  - mverwijs 8y ago
    My focus constantly shifts back to the blinking, missing that bike that has no lights on or less-obvious lights on.
  - Doxin 8y ago
    The problem being that judging the motion of a blinking light is nearly impossible. A blinking light is both more attention grabbing and less safe for the user.
fireattack 8y ago
LED strain could be a real thing but I'm not sure if this forum's discussion is scientific enough to be meaningful.
Tharkun 8y ago
I don't see the word 'migraine' mentioned anywhere on the linked site? Update: the title has since been changed to 'LED Strain'.
lorenzk 8y ago
I was impressed by how fast and uncluttered this site is. In case someone else is wondering: It seems to be running https://flarum.org/ https://flarum.org/, a PHP forum with a Mithril JS front-end
- dbg31415 8y ago
  Flarum has bene in beta for like 2 years now; site looks nice but I don't get the sense they have a lot of momentum. If I were going to build a forum today using an open-source platform, I'd probably go with Discourse. * Discourse - Civilized Discussion || https://www.discourse.org/ https://www.discourse.org/
- jspash 8y ago
  Perhaps it's the subject matter that has driven the site design towards a paler pastel colour palette, but I find it quite pleasing to the eye. Although I do wonder about accessibility. Some of the lighter colours don't pass WCAG recommendations for contrast. But it's rare to find a website outside of gov.uk that even comes close.
- petra 8y ago
  Nice UX. But it's terrible for search, both internal and external(Google). Why ? Let's start with internal search. Ctrl-f fails in thread search. No other mechanism to search inside a thread. And about external search: Permalinks to individual comments - great for the search engine when you request a very specific thing - a specific niche comment from this site could get ranked highly in google. Also, it's making it easy to link to a great comment is import. Impossible here. Permalinks to webpages that contain full threads - lots of relevant text for the search engine to chew on. But in flarum the content lazily loads. So maybe Google wouldn't be able to chew on all the comments. And the fact that when Google finds a thread from the site, he doesn't say how many comments per thread , indicates that he doesn't see this as a forum, which could be bad And all this is a real shame - it's a community with really valuable content.
  - KajMagnus 8y ago
    Then can I ask, what do you think about this? from the point of view of external search? Topic list: https://www.talkyard.io/forum/latest https://www.talkyard.io/forum/latest Example long discussion: https://insightful.demo.talkyard.io/-11/my-son-was-sent-home-from-sleepover-for-bad-behavior https://insightful.demo.talkyard.io/-11/my-son-was-sent-home... (of a length that might work less well with sort-by-time + lazy-load approaches) It's also new forum software (I'm developing it), sort of a combination of Discourse and HN and Slack. I would think it works ok with external search? Becasue, like here at HN, good comments surface to the top, + they're included in the HTMl directly on page load. So, what a search engine sees, ought to be the original post, + the best comments. I'm wondering, what do you mean with: "Also, it's making it easy to link to a great comment is import"? (What does "import" mean, here)
sydd 8y ago
This is one of those topics that I researched a lot when I bought a new home recently. While LED lights seem awesome at the first sight (low power consumption! No warmup time!) when you dig a little deeper you'll find that most LEDs are far from perfect: 1. Lots of LEDs flicker. Shitty ones with twice the frequency of the main current (so 100/120 Hz) While you might not notice this it causes eye strain and can lead to eye fatigue, headaches, migraines. 2. Most LEDs have a low CRI (Color Rendering Index, or called Ra which is one standard to measure it), this means that they do not emit light in certain frequencies causing objects to look dull/gray. Most LED lamps have a Ra value of 80, meaning that they emit on average in the 80% of a spectrum that covers most of the visible light. If you look around you'll be able to find reasonably priced LEDs with 90+ Ra and no flicker, but its a pain in the ass to research it. Especially if you need something more special like a LED light strip for your kitchen.
- jacobush 8y ago
  I wonder if someone has curated a list of good LED bulbs with high Ra and no flicker. I have been reluctant to go 100% LEDs at home.
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    This is a fantastic site that tested the spectrum and flicker of LED bulbs. The author seems to have stopped, but I think it’s still useful. http://ledbenchmark.com/ http://ledbenchmark.com/
  - tareqak 8y ago
    The Wirecutter reviews a few, but it's not a complete list: https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-led-lightbulb/ https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-led-lightbulb/ .
  - fyfy18 8y ago
    I have no issues with Osram Lightify GU10 bulbs (EU version), on the other hand I have proprietary fittings with Cree LEDs and Osram drivers that do flicker. So even in a single brand there can be issues...
baybal2 8y ago
What is this about? Can't quite get the point what this is about
- jeremy7600 8y ago
  You and me both.
- jeremy7600 8y ago
  I finally found this post, which is clearly missing from the FAQ: (https://ledstrain.org/p/1-faq https://ledstrain.org/p/1-faq) https://ledstrain.org/d/19-welcome-to-led-strain https://ledstrain.org/d/19-welcome-to-led-strain
posterboy 8y ago
I wonder whether flicker decreases lifetime significantly enough to eat up even the supposed savings.
posterboy 8y ago
Built-in converters for retro fit are such a waste. An external converter is small enough to build into the enclosure and industrial setups do just that.
kweks 8y ago
Last year, I was contemplating bootstrapping a startup that sold full-spectrum LEDs with a controllable blue element for home and office use. Think Flux but for real lights. I got so far as inspecting factories in Shenzhen, finding a partner supplier, and building some prototypes with my existing manufacturing contacts. Ultimately, I ran out of time (launched another product instead) - but it always bugged me that I wasn't able to bring this product to market. If anyone would be interested in picking up where I left off - I'd be interested in partnering. Shoot an email to public @ proxmark dot com
- warp 8y ago
  I've used Philips Hue lights for a sort-of-flux for my office, it works fairly well. The hardware part of it seems like a solved problem with the availability of RGB smart bulbs (or the cheaper ones which only go from cold/blue-ish light to warmer orange light, without full RGB). The software side could be improved.
  - yeutterg 8y ago
    I use Hue at home as well. They are great for controlling blue light exposure, but the flicker (North America) and color quality leave a ton to be desired. I can occasionally see the flicker, especially in my peripheral vision. Also, they've proven to be unreliable—I've had 4 (out of 13) suffer capacitor failure just outside of the warranty period. Their color binning is not good—new lights look totally different in color from the older ones. I wrote about this and was interviewed on a podcast recently: * Is Smart Lighting Healthy?: https://medium.com/simplebulb/is-smart-lighting-healthy-903ccc81c42b https://medium.com/simplebulb/is-smart-lighting-healthy-903c... * Podcast: https://bedtimebulb.com/ror https://bedtimebulb.com/ror Disclosure: I sell a light bulb meant to be used in the evening before bed. It removes most of the unhealthy blue/green light, has a super high CRI, and has less flicker than "flicker-free" lighting (which could have up to 30% flicker!). Bedtime Bulb: https://bedtimebulb.com/ https://bedtimebulb.com/
- gaijin 8y ago
  I had contemplated the same, though haven't gone as far as visiting factories. As another commented mentioned, Philips Hue is a possible alternative/competitor, but unsatisfactory in some respects; precise control over exactly which LEDs light up and the lack of red LEDs in its LED array. The goal was a fully controllable lightbulb so that blue LEDs could be turned off/reduced in the evening, and red LEDs turned on, gradually. Like you said, Flux for real light.
2700K 8y ago
I Learned that if low freq LED flicker strains your eyes, then there's a chance you'll feel discomfort from emerging display HDR color dithering as well. For example, if the panel is 8bit but it shows you 10bit color space by 8 bit plus A-FRC. Bought a 2018 Macbook pro and it produces similar symptoms like years ago when I had a laptop with bad low freq LED backlight. Right now using a late 2010 and a 2013 Macbook Pro both with native screens and on external screens and it does not make my head hurt. 2018 one strains me both on native screen and on my otherwise good daily driver BenQ monitor.
- jtl999 8y ago
  What GPU and OS X version are the older Macbook Pros?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
crankylinuxuser 8y ago
And I still like my incandescent light bulbs. Sure, when the AC is on in late spring/summer, LED makes a heck of a lot more sense. But when the heat is on, filament lightbulbs serve as space heaters as well as glowy-warm lights. And with the whole open question of blue light and retinopathy, tells me that until this is resolved that again, incandescents are better than LEDs. I already knew that those damned 'blue LEDs' are painful at night. I now know why.
- vostok 8y ago
  Heat pumps are usually more efficient than incandescent bulbs at heating.
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    True, but in the cold parts of the year, those lights are 100% efficient. They provide light (primary), and heat (secondary). Its only during the warmer parts of the year do they turn into a significant burden, energy wise.
    - vostok 8y ago
      Right, but 100% efficient is pretty bad. Heat pumps can be 300% efficient for example.
33degrees 8y ago
As someone who suffers from this since the arrival of LED backlighting, I wonder if there are lighting technologies on their way that will eliminate the issue?
- joshstrange 8y ago
  I'm not an expert but IIRC OLED doesn't use backlighting correct? Do OLED screens also cause you strain?
  - 33degrees 8y ago
    Correct, OLED doesn't use backlighting, but the problem is the PWM used to dim pixels, which is also used on OLED displays. I haven't tested the difference, but I've read that for others OLED in and of itself doesn't help.
jeremy7600 8y ago
This should be flagged, tagged, or somehow made to be seen by new vistors to the site, as I had to track this down to figure out what this site was even on about. https://ledstrain.org/d/19-welcome-to-led-strain https://ledstrain.org/d/19-welcome-to-led-strain
LargoLasskhyfv 8y ago
I'm sensitive to this flickering as well. Cars in motion, traffic lights, destination/passenger information displays, POS, sometimes ATMs. Though the "car-thing" mostly faded away over the last few years. They seem to got that right now. Anyways, i tried some of them over the last decade and they were all trash, made bad light, needed time to warm up, had coil whine or buzzing and broke after a few months. Then in May this year i tried some again and they were absolutely OK. It's called "LED-Retrofit" which means it fits in old sockets, based on this technology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament No dimming, no "smarts", no color/ambilight etc. Just works as it should. Mine are from Osram, for something like 6 to 12 Euros a piece, directly plugged into E27/E14 sockets at 230V@50Hz. And most importantly no ugly interactions with my screens running at 60Hz. This reminds me of scissors, for a long time they needed to be resharpened. Then, since maybe two, or at least one decade ago you could get good and f......g dangerous scissors which cut through almost anything whitout getting blunt/dull for next to nothing. Now seems to be the point in time where this happened for LED-lighting. At least when it's based on this "LED-Filament"-thing. HTH. (edit spelling)

162 points by profdithering 8y ago

yc2051 8y ago

The LED tubes that are being used to replace the florescent tubes are much brighter! This could also be a source of migraines.

JKCalhoun 8y ago

Interesting. Reading some of the comments they really run the gamut (no pun intended). It's reassuring to see though that people are starting to pay attention to this. For myself, it is the flicker (PWM) of some LED drivers that I am uncomfortable with. I went through a few different brands of LED track lights before finding one where I could perceive no flicker. Similarly for LED lightning in the garage. For the kitchen I had a need for rope lighting and never did find LED/driver combo that I was happy with.

copperx 8y ago
Here's a trick that I've found useful: If you have a phone that can do slow motion capture (I have a Pixel 2, but this also works with an iPhone), go to a Home Depot or Lowe's and take a slo-mo (240fps) video of the LED bulbs they have on display. Most flicker horribly on playback, including the expensive Cree bulbs. The built-in LED spotlights that came with my house flicker like a rave concert whenever I capture a video in slo-mo. It's unsettling. Phillips LEDs, especially the Scene Switch bulbs, are flicker-free according to my tests. Surprisingly, older CFL bulbs flicker much less than LEDs.
- lgleason 8y ago
  Great tip! I was surprised to see flicker even on my $10 a bulb Soraa lights which are top of the line, cri 92+ bulbs.
- homero 8y ago
  CFL stay semi lit between cycles
  - akronate 8y ago
    Former product display engineer here. Many of those light bulb displays are only meant to demonstrate color temperature, and have completely different power systems on board then an actual light bulb. Usually the AC rectification will be removed and replaced with a DC/DC converter. This is mostly so that the display can be battery powered, because the availability of AC power on shelf is pretty hit or miss. I wouldn’t trust a display to indicate if the bulb has flicker or not.
    - copperx 8y ago
      The ones you're talking about demonstrate color temperature. The ones I've seen demonstrate the different light output of different brands and are connected to AC through a dimmer. You can play with the dimmer, and the price of the dimmer (each dimmer is different) and the bulb are displayed. I can't imagine those are battery powered or that every different bulb on display has been modified.
      - fenwick67 8y ago
        This makes me wonder what the dimmer might be doing
- Marsymars 8y ago
  Trying this at my house I don't see flicker from either my Philips warm glow bulbs, my Luminus Elite bulbs from Costco, or my Philips Hue lightstrips, but do see flicker with my Philips Hue A19 bulbs.
Fnoord 8y ago
Well, if its a light in your house, it is within your control. What if it is at work? In the public transport? On the street? In a grocery store? At a customer? If you suffer from LED strain, it'll hamper your ability to function in society. All this reminds me a bit of Chuck in Better Call Saul (portrayed by Michael McKean). Regardless of what he exactly had, the man was ill.
- __david__ 8y ago
  > Regardless of what he exactly had, the man was ill. Psychologically. Jimmy clearly demonstrated that his symptoms were all in his head.

fermentation 8y ago

This is interesting. If LED lights pulse so quickly that we don't notice the flashing, how are these people able to perceive it in a way that causes them pain?

saurik 8y ago
1) I think it is totally possible that small scale effects can bug you at different layers of your neural processing: just because it is extremely difficult for me to perceive a sound doesn't mean my ears aren't being affected by it and even providing a signal to my brain with the information where it is being discarded actively. 2) They often don't? A lot of LEDs flicker at something like 60Hz. Sure: if you stare at the light you might not notice it blinking, due to the limitations of the sensors in your eyes that can weirdly "get tired" of looking at the same thing for too long, but if you move your eyes across the light quickly you will see it blinking as now you are getting a broken dotted line carved into your vision. I find this maddening when there are such lights in my peripheral vision.
jcims 8y ago
The pain just comes regardless of whether or not you actually perceive why. For me it's kind of a cramping sensation at the back of my eyes and if there is no other light source (think christmas tree with cheap LED lights in an otherwise dark room) i will also get nauseous. If you're shifting your view/moving your head you can easily perceive the flashes.
occamschainsaw 8y ago
From my personal anecdata, they don't perceive the LED flashing directly. Objects in motion look weird under some LED lighting. Motion doesn't look smooth. It's like a weaker version of looking at moving objects under continuous camera flashes. The effect isn't super explicit, but moving objects become jerky. Try looking at a fan under the lighting of cheap Christmas LEDs.
- Zak 8y ago
  More sensitive people will notice this effect even at a few kHz when an object lit by the source moves quickly or the viewer's vision pans across the light source. Even faster PWM up to a few kHz is visible to some people this way.

jcims 8y ago

Tis the season for PWM-induced headaches from cheap LED Christmas lights. I'm curious if folks in countries with 50Hz mains have the same issue. At that point it might be so bad that products without at least a full bridge rectifier would be unsellable.

pitaj 8y ago
Pretty sure PWM has nothing to do with cheap LED Christmas lights, beyond the basic "periodic wave resulting in flickering" idea.
- jcims 8y ago
  Yeah it's probably an abuse of the term, but the effect is similar.
- Tharkun 8y ago
  Many xmas lights flicker, even when they're not in blinking mode. With the really crappy ones it's often noticeable just by looking at them. With some of the slightly less crappy ones, it's easier to notice when looking at them out of the corner of your eye.
yeutterg 8y ago
Being aware of LED flicker and having been to places with both 50 Hz and 60 Hz AC, the places with 50 Hz are definitely worse. Extremely easy to perceive. Plus, it can be difficult to take photos under this light. Also, most of the "Edison-style" LED bulbs on the market use really cheap drivers. This is especially true outside the U.S. where you can get an LED "filament" with integrated half-wave rectifier. Thankfully UL is not allowing this crap in the U.S., but Edison-style LEDs here still (mostly) use very cheap driver topology. I'm on a mission to make lighting healthy. That's why I launched Bedtime Bulb: https://bedtimebulb.com/ https://bedtimebulb.com/ We have the lowest flicker of any bulb I have ever seen, even less than those claiming to be "flicker-free."

joecool1029 8y ago

'Is It Snappy?' is an iOS app that I use to diagnose whether LED bulbs are going to be shit in stores before I buy them. The IKEA bulbs have been cheap and decent. Old HN thread about the iOS app: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14023196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14023196

Zak 8y ago
You can also use any electronic rolling shutter with manual shutter speed - e.g. an Android phone with Camera2 API support and any of several camera apps with full manual settings. Set the shutter speed fairly high and preview or photograph the light source; flicker appears as scanlines, e.g. https://i.imgur.com/6kSoSfX.jpg https://i.imgur.com/6kSoSfX.jpg.
TaylorAlexander 8y ago
I remember that thread and I still use the app! Recently I used it to determine the RPM of a rotating thing.
wlesieutre 8y ago
FWIW I bought four IKEA bulbs a few years ago and all of them made a low buzzing sound. Couldn't stand them anywhere but the bathroom. On the other hand, if you're looking for IoT light bulbs, their Tradfri system is a lot cheaper than Hue and I've read that their gateway has reasonable security practices and a good API. I would bet that those are more premium products that they wouldn't have released without making sure the electronics are quiet.
- joecool1029 8y ago
  > FWIW I bought four IKEA bulbs a few years ago and all of them made a low buzzing sound. Couldn't stand them anywhere but the bathroom. LED or CFL? The latest batch of LED's they've only had about a year, the phosphors were switched around in their 1000 lumen (lm) and 1600lm E26 bulbs. They also advertise 100lm/W. These are not the junky dirt cheap 80lm/W 60W (800lm) equiv bulbs that you can pick up everywhere now (and I don't recommend for lighting a room). Also, watch for open boxes, I bought ~$200 in bulbs last time and one of the globe bulbs I bought was an obvious return and did not work.

Zak 8y ago

I hate lighting that flickers and will often notice it when other people do not. A few friends also notice flickering that most people don't detect. It takes tens of kHz before I won't notice a stop-motion effect like a strobe light with moving objects. LEDs do not have to flicker, but supplying low-ripple, constant-current DC power is not as cheap as ways of powering LEDs that do result in flicker.

ksec 8y ago
It got even worst when shopping malls decide to follow the trend of Green Power and LED lightning while buying some absolute crap to use. The results are there are places I can't go, worst one I will feel dizzy and may want to puke, lesser ones are super annoying I don't want to go. Problem is not everyone have this problem. I have this what I call latency intolerance syndrome.
- yeutterg 8y ago
  This. I work in lighting and most of the people doing specification have never even heard of flicker. I usually get brushed off as some kind of impractical visionary. I am on a mission to make lighting healthy. That's why I made Bedtime Bulb: https://bedtimebulb.com/ https://bedtimebulb.com/ It has the lowest flicker I've ever seen in a bulb form factor—even less than those claiming to be "flicker-free."
  - remir 8y ago
    Went to your Amazon page, but it looks like the product isn't being sold? There's no way to buy it.
    - yeutterg 8y ago
      If you're in the U.S., try this link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H49N46N https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H49N46N If you're in Canada, try this link: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07H49N46N https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07H49N46N Let me know if you're still having trouble. Thanks!

sephamorr 8y ago

Let me shed some light on how you can drive LEDs from an AC power source. Naturally the worst techniques are usually the cheapest. To add to the complexity, directives like EnergyStar are aiming for power factor >0.9 in lighting above 3W. Maintaining high power factor (sin^2 input power) while having low lighting ripple (constant output power) requires some method of of storing energy. In methods 1,2,3 (and 4 depending), neither high power factor nor good lighting ripple is achieved, but very low cost is. Note that this info is for fairly low power LEDs. When you start having high power LEDs, regulations may require better power electronics, and the cost of the electronics might be amortized against the cost of the thermal cooling solution, etc, so you can make a more expensive electronics package. 1) By stringing ~ 180v of LEDs in series, and adding a current limiting resistor, you can drive the whole thing from the AC line. This has terrible variability (short light spikes every 60hz, and the thermal effects will change the LED properties so much that you could easily have 2x light intensity change as they warm up) and poor total illumination (as most of the cycle is spent with the AC waveform lower than the needed voltage. I haven't seen this in the wild, as option 2 isn't much more expensive and far better. 2) Use a single diode + capacitor rectifier to generate ~180v, and then have a similar string as in (1). This gives far better illumination (the capacitor will probably stay in the 160-180v range), but still has substantial 50/60hz ripple based on the size of the capacitor 3) Similar to (2) but use a full bridge rectifier instead of a single diode. As we are now driven by a rectified sine wave, the ripple voltage will ~half, and the ripple frequency will now be 100/120hz. 4) Many applications don't have ~60 LEDs in series, so you can't drive directly from the rectified AC line. The first stage is a rectifier, and a second stage most likely is a buck converter. The quality of the light out of this depends on how much you care about power factor. Chips like NCL30288, for example, maintain high power factor and fairly low lighting ripple. Most people won't notice this. 5) Particularly in higher power lighting, a separate power factor correcting stage achieves high power factor, and a second stage generates a constant current that should have exceptionally low luminous intensity ripple (if designed right). The ripple frequency should be in the hundreds of kHz as well, so I don't think any eye could notice this. And don't get started on dimming, I haven't found a product on the market that does non-phase cut dimming in <20W lights.

frabert 8y ago

chris_overseas 8y ago

One interesting use for flickering LEDs is to help figure out the readout speed and clock rate of a digital camera sensor by exploiting the rolling shutter. Some discussion and experiments on this technique can be found here: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=23040.0 https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=23040.0

ksec 8y ago

Related Question: Is it possible for AM-OLED to be PWM free? ( Apart from setting it at maximum brightness ). Or would we have to stick to this until MicroLED comes.... which is still years away. Edit: I know W-OLED used by LG does not have PWM problem, but that is not for mobile uses.

discreteevent 8y ago
There are a few of interesting comments in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7uv6m3/iphone_x_uses_pulse_width_modulation_which_is_a/?st=JM3ZG0DU&sh=d12d2cf9 https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7uv6m3/iphone_x_uses... In summary they are saying that low frequency (240Hz) PWM is used for amoled because it decreases sub-pixel wear, it prevents color distortion, it's cheaper. So it looks like this won't change. I got an amoled phone and was surprised that the experience was worse than LCD (for me - it seems to depend a lot on the individual). Didn't even know that PWM was used until I started googling eystrain and amoled. Anyway, I sent the phone back.
- ksec 8y ago
  That is sad, I wish they do 480hz and we could see if it strain as much.
kmeier 8y ago
Check notebookcheck's reviews to find AMOLED phones that eiter don't use PWM (I think it's only about 2 of them) or only use it above a certain brightness level. For example, the Axon 7 Mini. It seems those displays started to show up at around 2016. A small 60 Hz flicker will remain though, similar to as seen on OLED TVs.

fenwick67 8y ago

PWM is noticeable on most 7-segment displays (on microwaves etc). Clicking your teeth together makes it pretty apparent usually, the segments will appear to jump around. Try it at home!

proaralyst 8y ago
That's what that is. I never considered that those displays were strobing!
kw71 8y ago
This is not that. This is multiplexing and the purpose of it is to save i/o wires. If you film it with a high speed camera you will see something like one digit being lit at a time.
- fenwick67 8y ago
  Yeah you're right, calling it PWM isn't really correct.

Fnoord 8y ago

In The Netherlands some cyclists have this brilliant idea to put their lights on flash/flicker. I suppose some think they'll be easier to get noticed. It is not allowed by law (the light has to be either constantly on, or it may be turned off if it isn't dark), it can trigger epilepsy, it is distracting, and it is selfish and not 'cool' at all. It also appears to be common in PC desktops to enable all kind of LEDs, without allowing them to be disabled. Especially in all kind of colours (which Razor dubbed 'Chroma'). Not my cup of tea, a waste of aesthetic and electricity but the worst thing about it is that I pay premium for such feature because it is deemed 'cool' by the target market. FWIW, I use a strong light in the morning to wake up. It doesn't flash.

Tharkun 8y ago
Belgium had similar rules for cyclists, but recently updated them. Cycling around like a strobing christmas tree is now allowed. sigh
fingerlocks 8y ago
Flashing bike lights are ubiquitous in the United States. I prefer them because I can distinguish a cyclist from what could be a slow car missing a tail light.
arendtio 8y ago
Well, I don't like those lights either, but calling it selfish, is kinda hard when you compare it to how many cyclists get killed every year because some motorist didn't see them.
- mverwijs 8y ago
  My focus constantly shifts back to the blinking, missing that bike that has no lights on or less-obvious lights on.
- Doxin 8y ago
  The problem being that judging the motion of a blinking light is nearly impossible. A blinking light is both more attention grabbing and less safe for the user.

fireattack 8y ago

LED strain could be a real thing but I'm not sure if this forum's discussion is scientific enough to be meaningful.

Tharkun 8y ago

I don't see the word 'migraine' mentioned anywhere on the linked site? Update: the title has since been changed to 'LED Strain'.

lorenzk 8y ago

I was impressed by how fast and uncluttered this site is. In case someone else is wondering: It seems to be running https://flarum.org/ https://flarum.org/, a PHP forum with a Mithril JS front-end

dbg31415 8y ago
Flarum has bene in beta for like 2 years now; site looks nice but I don't get the sense they have a lot of momentum. If I were going to build a forum today using an open-source platform, I'd probably go with Discourse. * Discourse - Civilized Discussion || https://www.discourse.org/ https://www.discourse.org/
jspash 8y ago
Perhaps it's the subject matter that has driven the site design towards a paler pastel colour palette, but I find it quite pleasing to the eye. Although I do wonder about accessibility. Some of the lighter colours don't pass WCAG recommendations for contrast. But it's rare to find a website outside of gov.uk that even comes close.
petra 8y ago
Nice UX. But it's terrible for search, both internal and external(Google). Why ? Let's start with internal search. Ctrl-f fails in thread search. No other mechanism to search inside a thread. And about external search: Permalinks to individual comments - great for the search engine when you request a very specific thing - a specific niche comment from this site could get ranked highly in google. Also, it's making it easy to link to a great comment is import. Impossible here. Permalinks to webpages that contain full threads - lots of relevant text for the search engine to chew on. But in flarum the content lazily loads. So maybe Google wouldn't be able to chew on all the comments. And the fact that when Google finds a thread from the site, he doesn't say how many comments per thread , indicates that he doesn't see this as a forum, which could be bad And all this is a real shame - it's a community with really valuable content.
- KajMagnus 8y ago
  Then can I ask, what do you think about this? from the point of view of external search? Topic list: https://www.talkyard.io/forum/latest https://www.talkyard.io/forum/latest Example long discussion: https://insightful.demo.talkyard.io/-11/my-son-was-sent-home-from-sleepover-for-bad-behavior https://insightful.demo.talkyard.io/-11/my-son-was-sent-home... (of a length that might work less well with sort-by-time + lazy-load approaches) It's also new forum software (I'm developing it), sort of a combination of Discourse and HN and Slack. I would think it works ok with external search? Becasue, like here at HN, good comments surface to the top, + they're included in the HTMl directly on page load. So, what a search engine sees, ought to be the original post, + the best comments. I'm wondering, what do you mean with: "Also, it's making it easy to link to a great comment is import"? (What does "import" mean, here)

sydd 8y ago

This is one of those topics that I researched a lot when I bought a new home recently. While LED lights seem awesome at the first sight (low power consumption! No warmup time!) when you dig a little deeper you'll find that most LEDs are far from perfect: 1. Lots of LEDs flicker. Shitty ones with twice the frequency of the main current (so 100/120 Hz) While you might not notice this it causes eye strain and can lead to eye fatigue, headaches, migraines. 2. Most LEDs have a low CRI (Color Rendering Index, or called Ra which is one standard to measure it), this means that they do not emit light in certain frequencies causing objects to look dull/gray. Most LED lamps have a Ra value of 80, meaning that they emit on average in the 80% of a spectrum that covers most of the visible light. If you look around you'll be able to find reasonably priced LEDs with 90+ Ra and no flicker, but its a pain in the ass to research it. Especially if you need something more special like a LED light strip for your kitchen.

jacobush 8y ago
I wonder if someone has curated a list of good LED bulbs with high Ra and no flicker. I have been reluctant to go 100% LEDs at home.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  This is a fantastic site that tested the spectrum and flicker of LED bulbs. The author seems to have stopped, but I think it’s still useful. http://ledbenchmark.com/ http://ledbenchmark.com/
- tareqak 8y ago
  The Wirecutter reviews a few, but it's not a complete list: https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-led-lightbulb/ https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-led-lightbulb/ .
- fyfy18 8y ago
  I have no issues with Osram Lightify GU10 bulbs (EU version), on the other hand I have proprietary fittings with Cree LEDs and Osram drivers that do flicker. So even in a single brand there can be issues...

baybal2 8y ago

What is this about? Can't quite get the point what this is about

jeremy7600 8y ago
You and me both.
jeremy7600 8y ago
I finally found this post, which is clearly missing from the FAQ: (https://ledstrain.org/p/1-faq https://ledstrain.org/p/1-faq) https://ledstrain.org/d/19-welcome-to-led-strain https://ledstrain.org/d/19-welcome-to-led-strain

posterboy 8y ago

I wonder whether flicker decreases lifetime significantly enough to eat up even the supposed savings.

posterboy 8y ago

Built-in converters for retro fit are such a waste. An external converter is small enough to build into the enclosure and industrial setups do just that.

kweks 8y ago

Last year, I was contemplating bootstrapping a startup that sold full-spectrum LEDs with a controllable blue element for home and office use. Think Flux but for real lights. I got so far as inspecting factories in Shenzhen, finding a partner supplier, and building some prototypes with my existing manufacturing contacts. Ultimately, I ran out of time (launched another product instead) - but it always bugged me that I wasn't able to bring this product to market. If anyone would be interested in picking up where I left off - I'd be interested in partnering. Shoot an email to public @ proxmark dot com

warp 8y ago
I've used Philips Hue lights for a sort-of-flux for my office, it works fairly well. The hardware part of it seems like a solved problem with the availability of RGB smart bulbs (or the cheaper ones which only go from cold/blue-ish light to warmer orange light, without full RGB). The software side could be improved.
- yeutterg 8y ago
  I use Hue at home as well. They are great for controlling blue light exposure, but the flicker (North America) and color quality leave a ton to be desired. I can occasionally see the flicker, especially in my peripheral vision. Also, they've proven to be unreliable—I've had 4 (out of 13) suffer capacitor failure just outside of the warranty period. Their color binning is not good—new lights look totally different in color from the older ones. I wrote about this and was interviewed on a podcast recently: * Is Smart Lighting Healthy?: https://medium.com/simplebulb/is-smart-lighting-healthy-903ccc81c42b https://medium.com/simplebulb/is-smart-lighting-healthy-903c... * Podcast: https://bedtimebulb.com/ror https://bedtimebulb.com/ror Disclosure: I sell a light bulb meant to be used in the evening before bed. It removes most of the unhealthy blue/green light, has a super high CRI, and has less flicker than "flicker-free" lighting (which could have up to 30% flicker!). Bedtime Bulb: https://bedtimebulb.com/ https://bedtimebulb.com/
gaijin 8y ago
I had contemplated the same, though haven't gone as far as visiting factories. As another commented mentioned, Philips Hue is a possible alternative/competitor, but unsatisfactory in some respects; precise control over exactly which LEDs light up and the lack of red LEDs in its LED array. The goal was a fully controllable lightbulb so that blue LEDs could be turned off/reduced in the evening, and red LEDs turned on, gradually. Like you said, Flux for real light.

2700K 8y ago

I Learned that if low freq LED flicker strains your eyes, then there's a chance you'll feel discomfort from emerging display HDR color dithering as well. For example, if the panel is 8bit but it shows you 10bit color space by 8 bit plus A-FRC. Bought a 2018 Macbook pro and it produces similar symptoms like years ago when I had a laptop with bad low freq LED backlight. Right now using a late 2010 and a 2013 Macbook Pro both with native screens and on external screens and it does not make my head hurt. 2018 one strains me both on native screen and on my otherwise good daily driver BenQ monitor.

jtl999 8y ago
What GPU and OS X version are the older Macbook Pros?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

crankylinuxuser 8y ago

And I still like my incandescent light bulbs. Sure, when the AC is on in late spring/summer, LED makes a heck of a lot more sense. But when the heat is on, filament lightbulbs serve as space heaters as well as glowy-warm lights. And with the whole open question of blue light and retinopathy, tells me that until this is resolved that again, incandescents are better than LEDs. I already knew that those damned 'blue LEDs' are painful at night. I now know why.

vostok 8y ago
Heat pumps are usually more efficient than incandescent bulbs at heating.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  True, but in the cold parts of the year, those lights are 100% efficient. They provide light (primary), and heat (secondary). Its only during the warmer parts of the year do they turn into a significant burden, energy wise.
  - vostok 8y ago
    Right, but 100% efficient is pretty bad. Heat pumps can be 300% efficient for example.

33degrees 8y ago

As someone who suffers from this since the arrival of LED backlighting, I wonder if there are lighting technologies on their way that will eliminate the issue?

joshstrange 8y ago
I'm not an expert but IIRC OLED doesn't use backlighting correct? Do OLED screens also cause you strain?
- 33degrees 8y ago
  Correct, OLED doesn't use backlighting, but the problem is the PWM used to dim pixels, which is also used on OLED displays. I haven't tested the difference, but I've read that for others OLED in and of itself doesn't help.

jeremy7600 8y ago

This should be flagged, tagged, or somehow made to be seen by new vistors to the site, as I had to track this down to figure out what this site was even on about. https://ledstrain.org/d/19-welcome-to-led-strain https://ledstrain.org/d/19-welcome-to-led-strain

LargoLasskhyfv 8y ago

I'm sensitive to this flickering as well. Cars in motion, traffic lights, destination/passenger information displays, POS, sometimes ATMs. Though the "car-thing" mostly faded away over the last few years. They seem to got that right now. Anyways, i tried some of them over the last decade and they were all trash, made bad light, needed time to warm up, had coil whine or buzzing and broke after a few months. Then in May this year i tried some again and they were absolutely OK. It's called "LED-Retrofit" which means it fits in old sockets, based on this technology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_filament No dimming, no "smarts", no color/ambilight etc. Just works as it should. Mine are from Osram, for something like 6 to 12 Euros a piece, directly plugged into E27/E14 sockets at 230V@50Hz. And most importantly no ugly interactions with my screens running at 60Hz. This reminds me of scissors, for a long time they needed to be resharpened. Then, since maybe two, or at least one decade ago you could get good and f......g dangerous scissors which cut through almost anything whitout getting blunt/dull for next to nothing. Now seems to be the point in time where this happened for LED-lighting. At least when it's based on this "LED-Filament"-thing. HTH. (edit spelling)