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This isn't the first time. There was a scandal with blood donors. Its illegal in the Netherlands to sell your blood but blood banks were importing blood from th

This isn't the first time. There was a scandal with blood donors. Its illegal in the Netherlands to sell your blood but blood banks were importing blood from the US. Poor people shouldn't have to resort to selling their body.

anvandare 8y ago
Everyone who works is selling their body in some way. That's all work is. Anything else is rent-taking.
- i_cannot_hack 8y ago
  They obviously meant selling physical parts of your body, not selling your time or expertise in the abstract sense.
  - anvandare 8y ago
    Blood replenishes though. It's not really a body part in that way, just like hair. (I don't know if regular donation has any long-term effects?) In that sense (no permanent impact) I'd see a greater problem with poverty driving people into working as miners or soldiers, than as blood donors. Semantics aside, the real problem is the (desperation of) poverty, not the results of it.
  - rnnr 8y ago
    So selling your hair is a problem too? Surrogate mothers? Do you even think that a poor person has the same quality of healthcare as a rich person has? All these bans just showcase bad manners and bad leftist ideology.
    - eru 8y ago
      Surrogacy is banned in most of Europe. See eg https://www.euronews.com/2018/09/13/where-in-europe-is-surrogacy-legal https://www.euronews.com/2018/09/13/where-in-europe-is-surro... (or just do some Googling). I don't have too much of an opinion either way, but the Dutch are more consistent than you seem to give them credit for. (Selling hair is legal though for all I know.)
    - Nashooo 8y ago
      > Do you even think that a poor person has the same quality of healthcare as a rich person has? They actually do in The Netherlands :)
    - dang 8y ago
      Please keep ideological rants off HN. They're what this site is not for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- eveningcoffee 8y ago
  No, you are selling your labor - the work your body does. Not your body parts.
  - Retric 8y ago
    Blood is not really a body part in the way most people think of it. It’s much closer to saliva in that it’s generated by the body and used up fairly quickly. Red blood cells for example live for around 120 days which is limited because they don’t have DNA. I suspect this is an adaptation to both increase hemoglobin transport, but also to reduce cancer risks.
    - Symmetry 8y ago
      The only blood component you can sell in the US is plasma, which is replaced much more quickly than that.
  - freeflight 8y ago
    The human body suffers just as much from wear and tear like anything else, maybe even more so due to being just a bunch of flesh/bones that can't be easily replaced. In that context, anybody who works hard labor is trading in part of their health for income because many labor-intensive jobs will take their toll on the body [0]. Up to a point where people either have to switch line of work or go into early retirement, as certain parts of their body stop functioning properly and they are stuck with chronic pains for the remainder of their lives. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-work-occupational-risks/physically-demanding-jobs-may-shorten-mens-lives-idUSKCN1IW2Z3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-work-occupational-...
    - blattimwind 8y ago
      > The human body suffers just as much from wear and tear like anything else, maybe even more so due to being just a bunch of flesh/bones that can't be easily replaced. The human body is amazingly reliable, no comparison to "dead" (non-self-sustaining, non-self-renuvating) machines.
    - 8y ago
- agumonkey 8y ago
  Then let's have a threshold below which it's unethical and illegal.
humanrebar 8y ago
Since the subject is the Netherlands, I have a hard time reconciling the position that it should be legal to sell one's body (prostitution) but illegal to sell one's body (blood, marrow, cadavers, organs upon death).
- kofejnik 8y ago
  selling your labor is not the same as selling physical body parts
  - humanrebar 8y ago
    > Poor people shouldn't have to resort to selling their body. This argument in particular applies in both cases.
    - vertex-four 8y ago
      Only via a linguistic trick. We could expand that argument to suggest that poor people shouldn’t ever have to work for a living - labour is, of course, selling your body.
      - humanrebar 8y ago
        Not "only" via a linguistic trick. There are several philosophies that hold that there is something special about each human life that needs to be preserved. Some of those find prostitution, especially poverty driven varieties, to be a violation of that. Some of those find selling of body parts, especially poverty driven sales, to be a violation of that as well. In other words, both stem from a belief in "human dignity".
        vertex-four 8y ago
        A true belief in human dignity would also suggest that a massive amount of poorly-paid jobs that, of course, only people in poverty get forced into, should not exist, either. But that would require an overhaul of how we view work as a society, and we can live the happy lie of just banning sex work because some people think sex is specially important in a way that almost nothing else a human can do is. There isn't really anything special about sex work, societal views on it aside. It's hard work, but for many people it causes no more harm to their dignity than anything else they could be doing. Source: sex worker friends.
maxerickson 8y ago
Plasma donation is really the only thing that pays in the US.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  Because it’s hard to convince volunteers to come often enough and long enough without paying them. As a result, other countries with volunteer donation systems aren’t self-sufficient for plasma. Instead they usually rely on US imports. To the point of blood products accounting for 1.3% of all US exports.
danShumway 8y ago
I used to be more open to arguments like this, but then I listened to the Reply All episode about selling breast milk[0]. I think it's complicated. Poor people shouldn't need to "resort" to anything. We should have safety nets for people who are poor. But given that we don't have those safety nets, we should be at least a little cautious about removing mechanisms for them to help themselves, even if those mechanisms have potentially harmful elements. I don't know what the current underground/black-market situation looks like for selling blood, but I don't take it as a given that a regulated market would be worse than what we have. I would need to see data that supported that conclusion before I jumped to it. [0]: https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/57-milk-wanted https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/57-milk-wanted
armenarmen 8y ago
Should poor people only be able to give blood out of the goodness of their hearts? If someone saves my life with their blood should they not be compensated? Poor people can sell their labor. Poor people can sell sex in the Netherlands. Why shouldn't they be able to sell other fluids?
- wartijn_ 8y ago
  Because they don't want your blood if you have a higher risk of diseases. You have to fill in a questionnaire with all kind of questions relating to your health, travels to other countries, your sex life, dug use and a few other things. The idea is that you might not be completely honest if you get paid for your blood. Have you done some coke last month? Just tell and nothing will happen, except you won't be donating any blood for the next 11 months. Have you done some coke last month, but also really need money to feed your kids? It might be really tempting to lie and get that blood bank money anyway.
  - elliekelly 8y ago
    > Because they don't want your blood if you have a higher risk of diseases. You have to fill in a questionnaire with all kind of questions relating to your health, travels to other countries, your sex life, dug use and a few other things. The idea is that you might not be completely honest if you get paid for your blood. I would much rather rely on testing donated blood than taking someone's word for it, no matter how much money they were or weren't paid.
    - mytherin 8y ago
      They do test the blood, but the tests are not 100% accurate (no medical test like this is). Asking people helps reduce the need for these tests which helps reduce the accidents caused by inaccurate results. Give people an incentive to lie and these accident rates will go up. It's as simple as that.

anvandare 8y ago

Everyone who works is selling their body in some way. That's all work is. Anything else is rent-taking.

i_cannot_hack 8y ago
They obviously meant selling physical parts of your body, not selling your time or expertise in the abstract sense.
- anvandare 8y ago
  Blood replenishes though. It's not really a body part in that way, just like hair. (I don't know if regular donation has any long-term effects?) In that sense (no permanent impact) I'd see a greater problem with poverty driving people into working as miners or soldiers, than as blood donors. Semantics aside, the real problem is the (desperation of) poverty, not the results of it.
- rnnr 8y ago
  So selling your hair is a problem too? Surrogate mothers? Do you even think that a poor person has the same quality of healthcare as a rich person has? All these bans just showcase bad manners and bad leftist ideology.
  - eru 8y ago
    Surrogacy is banned in most of Europe. See eg https://www.euronews.com/2018/09/13/where-in-europe-is-surrogacy-legal https://www.euronews.com/2018/09/13/where-in-europe-is-surro... (or just do some Googling). I don't have too much of an opinion either way, but the Dutch are more consistent than you seem to give them credit for. (Selling hair is legal though for all I know.)
  - Nashooo 8y ago
    > Do you even think that a poor person has the same quality of healthcare as a rich person has? They actually do in The Netherlands :)
  - dang 8y ago
    Please keep ideological rants off HN. They're what this site is not for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
eveningcoffee 8y ago
No, you are selling your labor - the work your body does. Not your body parts.
- Retric 8y ago
  Blood is not really a body part in the way most people think of it. It’s much closer to saliva in that it’s generated by the body and used up fairly quickly. Red blood cells for example live for around 120 days which is limited because they don’t have DNA. I suspect this is an adaptation to both increase hemoglobin transport, but also to reduce cancer risks.
  - Symmetry 8y ago
    The only blood component you can sell in the US is plasma, which is replaced much more quickly than that.
- freeflight 8y ago
  The human body suffers just as much from wear and tear like anything else, maybe even more so due to being just a bunch of flesh/bones that can't be easily replaced. In that context, anybody who works hard labor is trading in part of their health for income because many labor-intensive jobs will take their toll on the body [0]. Up to a point where people either have to switch line of work or go into early retirement, as certain parts of their body stop functioning properly and they are stuck with chronic pains for the remainder of their lives. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-work-occupational-risks/physically-demanding-jobs-may-shorten-mens-lives-idUSKCN1IW2Z3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-work-occupational-...
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    > The human body suffers just as much from wear and tear like anything else, maybe even more so due to being just a bunch of flesh/bones that can't be easily replaced. The human body is amazingly reliable, no comparison to "dead" (non-self-sustaining, non-self-renuvating) machines.
  - 8y ago
agumonkey 8y ago
Then let's have a threshold below which it's unethical and illegal.

humanrebar 8y ago

Since the subject is the Netherlands, I have a hard time reconciling the position that it should be legal to sell one's body (prostitution) but illegal to sell one's body (blood, marrow, cadavers, organs upon death).

kofejnik 8y ago
selling your labor is not the same as selling physical body parts
- humanrebar 8y ago
  > Poor people shouldn't have to resort to selling their body. This argument in particular applies in both cases.
  - vertex-four 8y ago
    Only via a linguistic trick. We could expand that argument to suggest that poor people shouldn’t ever have to work for a living - labour is, of course, selling your body.
    - humanrebar 8y ago
      Not "only" via a linguistic trick. There are several philosophies that hold that there is something special about each human life that needs to be preserved. Some of those find prostitution, especially poverty driven varieties, to be a violation of that. Some of those find selling of body parts, especially poverty driven sales, to be a violation of that as well. In other words, both stem from a belief in "human dignity".
      - vertex-four 8y ago
        A true belief in human dignity would also suggest that a massive amount of poorly-paid jobs that, of course, only people in poverty get forced into, should not exist, either. But that would require an overhaul of how we view work as a society, and we can live the happy lie of just banning sex work because some people think sex is specially important in a way that almost nothing else a human can do is. There isn't really anything special about sex work, societal views on it aside. It's hard work, but for many people it causes no more harm to their dignity than anything else they could be doing. Source: sex worker friends.

maxerickson 8y ago

Plasma donation is really the only thing that pays in the US.

Scoundreller 8y ago
Because it’s hard to convince volunteers to come often enough and long enough without paying them. As a result, other countries with volunteer donation systems aren’t self-sufficient for plasma. Instead they usually rely on US imports. To the point of blood products accounting for 1.3% of all US exports.

danShumway 8y ago

I used to be more open to arguments like this, but then I listened to the Reply All episode about selling breast milk[0]. I think it's complicated. Poor people shouldn't need to "resort" to anything. We should have safety nets for people who are poor. But given that we don't have those safety nets, we should be at least a little cautious about removing mechanisms for them to help themselves, even if those mechanisms have potentially harmful elements. I don't know what the current underground/black-market situation looks like for selling blood, but I don't take it as a given that a regulated market would be worse than what we have. I would need to see data that supported that conclusion before I jumped to it. [0]: https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/57-milk-wanted https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/57-milk-wanted

armenarmen 8y ago

Should poor people only be able to give blood out of the goodness of their hearts? If someone saves my life with their blood should they not be compensated? Poor people can sell their labor. Poor people can sell sex in the Netherlands. Why shouldn't they be able to sell other fluids?

wartijn_ 8y ago
Because they don't want your blood if you have a higher risk of diseases. You have to fill in a questionnaire with all kind of questions relating to your health, travels to other countries, your sex life, dug use and a few other things. The idea is that you might not be completely honest if you get paid for your blood. Have you done some coke last month? Just tell and nothing will happen, except you won't be donating any blood for the next 11 months. Have you done some coke last month, but also really need money to feed your kids? It might be really tempting to lie and get that blood bank money anyway.
- elliekelly 8y ago
  > Because they don't want your blood if you have a higher risk of diseases. You have to fill in a questionnaire with all kind of questions relating to your health, travels to other countries, your sex life, dug use and a few other things. The idea is that you might not be completely honest if you get paid for your blood. I would much rather rely on testing donated blood than taking someone's word for it, no matter how much money they were or weren't paid.
  - mytherin 8y ago
    They do test the blood, but the tests are not 100% accurate (no medical test like this is). Asking people helps reduce the need for these tests which helps reduce the accidents caused by inaccurate results. Give people an incentive to lie and these accident rates will go up. It's as simple as that.