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You're acting as if "the general anti-China slant" isn't justified. The only reason China was tolerated so far is purely due to economic reasons, otherwise what
by thevardanian 8y ago
You're acting as if "the general anti-China slant" isn't justified. The only reason China was tolerated so far is purely due to economic reasons, otherwise what China is today as a government shouldn't have been tolerated and, in facts, begs sanctions.
China has done far more egregious transgression to be sanctioned for than Russia, but business/economic interests seem to outweigh that sort of action against China.
- blacksmith_tb 8y agoClearly China has done some iffy business transgressions (dumping, industrial espionage, etc.) though they've also provided plenty of bargain-priced manufacturing (I type this on a Mac made by Foxconn...). But there isn't any indication they've tampered with elections for example, so I think it's an overstatement to say they're "far more egregious" than Russia.
- bb88 8y ago> But there isn't any indication they've tampered with elections for example. So, other than Chinagate you mean? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_campaign_finance_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_United_States_campaign_fi...
- blacksmith_tb 8y agoI had forgotten about it, but your link says nothing was proven... so a bit different than more recent events[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2018_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20...
- ngngngng 8y agoI'd like to introduce you to 62,979,879 people that don't believe there was any Russian interference in the United States last election.
- txru 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
- tejon 8y agoGP was mocking the belief of ~63M people (and GGP's parallel belief by proxy), not holding it up as evidence.
- ngngngng 8y agoExactly. And as many people appear to have turned on Trump online since the election, I've yet to meet someone in person that voted for him that is not a huge fan of him.
- bdhe 8y agoThat's neither here nor there is it? The 1996 investigations led to no indictments and if anything widespread criticism of how Congressional investigations wasted time. The 2016 investigations are still ongoing with dozens of indictments, several guilty pleas, and jail-time.
- mc32 8y agoBut none so far about election tampering. More anout lying about timelines, not registering as foreign agents, etc. It’s like a big version of the Martha Stewart trial —so far anyhow.
- adventured 8y agoThere were multiple people arrested and convicted for campaign crimes relating to what prompted the 1996 investigations in fact. With some of it pointing directly back to Beijing on record. To say nothing of the unusual amounts of Chinese money flowing into Hillary's campaign when she was running against Obama [1]. The Chinese foreign money connection to the Clintons goes back a very long ways. Then conveniently Bill Clinton goes on a blitz to get China into the WTO during his Presidency. See (2017 article): “The FBI uncovered evidence about the alleged plan, in part, through electronic intercepts. ... The plan, first discussed in early 1995, called for Chinese officials to channel more than $2 million into U.S. campaigns." "This isn’t even ancient history. Last week a 17-year-old video surfaced from convicted Clinton fundraiser Johnny Chung in which he confessed to fronting for Chinese intelligence and worried about being bumped off." https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-was-bill-clintons-russia-1488585526 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-was-bill-clintons-russia-... [1] http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1679979,00.html http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1679979,0...
- bb88 8y agoYou mean like this? Note this is not the president saying it, it's national security agencies. https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/412292-us-warns-of-ongoing-election-interference-by-russia-china-iran https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/412292-us-warns... And then of course you over look all the chinese spying that's been going on the last two decades -- both corporate and government sponsored. Let's be clear, China is not a good actor. And whitewashing history to make them seem otherwise is not being honest.
- omellet 8y agohttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/11/china-legalises-internment-camps-for-million-uighurs https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/11/china-legalise...
- booleanbetrayal 8y agohttps://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/08/china-pathologizing-uighur-muslims-mental-illness/568525/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/08/ch...
- Aunche 8y agoIt's easy to criticize China's handling of culturally incompatible indigenous peoples when your own are either dead or accepted their place in a depressing reservation. From China's perspective, their heavy handed tactics are the only thing preventing the region from falling into civil war.
- thaumaturgy 8y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_...
- blacksmith_tb 8y agoAbsolutely - and the mass internment of Uighurs in Xinjiang. But the US turns a blind eye to domestic abuses all over the world, so I don't expect much.
- sjeohp 8y ago> tampered with elections By that metric the US is most egregious, so is hypocritical to sanction anyone
- balls187 8y agoThat's whataboutism. The US being a bad actor doesn't have any bearing on the the bad acting of China, which is being discussed here.
- sjeohp 8y ago> China has done far more egregious transgression to be sanctioned for than Russia That was the initial claim.
- partisan 8y agoUnless it gives China reason to believe that such behavior is acceptable if their position on the world stage is high enough.
- yourbandsucks 8y agoThe Chinese government are mostly smarter than that, and better long-term thinkers. The Russian government has a lot of Putin's ego in it, they make big splashy moves that look like 'exerting power' (ukraine, georgia, US elections). Meanwhile their economy is stagnating and regressing to resource extraction. Why would the Chinese bother stoking tensions in America when we're already so good at it ourselves? "Never interfere with your enemy when he's making a mistake".
- btilly 8y agoI do not see why people are voting this down. The comment is absolutely correct. The discussion was on the faults of China vs Russia. Not on the USA. Election tampering was listed as something that China didn't do, so it is not even on the list of things we are trying to criticize China for. Why, then, are alleged past American misdeeds coming up? We can focus on them in a different discussion about the USA. They neither explain nor excuse the economic and currency manipulations that China has been engaged in.
- hguhghuff 8y agoChina is buying political influence everywhere.
- heavyavocado 8y ago> China has done far more egregious transgression to be sanctioned for than Russia Do you have any data to support this claim? Having just read Bill Browder's Red Notice I find that to be a questionable statement.
- toyg 8y agoThe overreach on southern straits is pretty egregious.
- wnevets 8y ago>State Dept. official: China holding 800k Muslim minorities in internment camps That sounds pretty terrible to me. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/419855-state-dept-official-china-holding-800k-uighurs-others-in-internment https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/419855-state-dep...
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoBy comparison, most of that kind of stuff in Russia died with Stalin.
- throwaway7312 8y agoCensured in the U.S., but relevant: http://www.magnitskyact.com/ http://www.magnitskyact.com/
- aphextron 8y ago>http://www.magnitskyact.com/ http://www.magnitskyact.com/ This is Kremlin paid propaganda from Andrei Nekrasov, a Russian film director who retweets RT and WikiLeaks. Since Browder's become far too high profile for Putin to murder, the level of effort by Russian trolls to discredit him has been truly remarkable.
- cbzbc 8y agoBrowder became rich in the era of voucher privatisation, there are all sorts of reasons why he may not exactly be an unbiased witness.
- coliveira 8y agoWhat you're saying makes no sense. If China is doing something bad and the USA allows it because of economic reasons, then both countries are in the same boat! Now you're proposing to punish China only because the economics don't seem to favor US anymore, which, if true, in fact means that the US is the rogue one.
- briandear 8y agoUnder that logic, France and Iran, Iraq and Libya are in the same boat. Germany and Assad must be in the same boat as well. The EU has a long history of trading with brutal regimes: is the EU now morally equivalent to the worst regimes on Earth? Germany and the UK were selling technology to the belligerents in the Iran-Iraq war, countries that used chemical weapons. Trade with a country doesn’t imply endorsement of that country’s policies. If the US takes a stand and embargoes a country, much of the rest of the world gets mad and accuses the US of meddling, then when they don’t embargo, the US gets accused of supporting policies of a specific country. There’s no way to win in the eyes of the world.
- NicoJuicy 8y agoThey do interfere with other countries, see the news agency they set up in London.
- SeanAppleby 8y agoHe's saying they've been transgressing in ways, like human rights violations (social credit and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang are a couple examples), undermining democracy outside of its own government (undermining Hong Kong's contractual right to independent democratic process, etc.), violating intellectual property, cyberespionage against US companies like Google, etc., which we would have likely already have punished if it weren't economically inconvenient to do so to this particular state, and that that's an unfortunate reason to allow foul play.
- davesque 8y agoPeople are so exceptionally bad at making arguments. He wasn't saying this at all. He was, in fact, saying the opposite--that the economics shouldn't matter and that China has been deserving of the international community's ire for a long time already.
- sctb 8y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18630131 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18630131.