4 ms·

The South Australian grid was particularly degenerate, making this more profitable there than elsewhere. It does make at least some sense in most places, thoug

The South Australian grid was particularly degenerate, making this more profitable there than elsewhere. It does make at least some sense in most places, though.

smoyer 8y ago
I remember there being a day earlier this year where the prices for wind-generated electricity in west Texas flipped. If you have to pay people to take your electricity (instead of spinning a generator down), why not store it for a later demand period?
- olau 8y ago
  It doesn't make sense to store something for later unless the storage costs are lower than the cost of reproducing what you need. A few periods per year of negative prices won't be enough to offset the investment in batteries.
- i_cant_speel 8y ago
  I was under the impression that large scale energy storage is one of the big problems with renewable energy that has yet to be truly solved.
  - EmbarrassedFuel 8y ago
    Don’t forget the stochastic control problem that needs to be solved to stop the whole grid blowing up!
    - Brometheus 8y ago
      https://www.energymeteo.com/products/virtual_power_plant/the_virtual_power_plant.php https://www.energymeteo.com/products/virtual_power_plant/the...
- makomk 8y ago
  The amount of energy that is stored in batteries like this isn't that big in grid-scale terms. For example, on the night that Texas wind generation flipped electricity prices into the negative back in September 2015, their wind turbines alone were pumping out almost 11,500 MW of power. This has a capacity of 129 MWh. It's useful for grid stabilization because it can start up almost instantly and fill in the gap until another generation source which can run for more than the 90 minutes the battery lasts can start up, but less practical for longer-term storage. (The 90 minutes capacity at full output is pretty much an inherent property of lithium battery tech, as I understand it. There's a slight capacity vs power tradeoff which can be tweaked, but only within a relatively narrow band, and the maximum charging rate is if anything even less flexible than the discharge.) Also, it looks like there's already a small-scale battery bank providing frequency stabilization using Samsung lithium ion batteries in West Texas: https://www.energy-storage.news/news/minimal-downtime-younicos-swaps-out-lead-acid-for-lithium-at-texas-notrees https://www.energy-storage.news/news/minimal-downtime-younic...
  - outworlder 8y ago
    > The 90 minutes capacity at full output is pretty much an inherent property of lithium battery tech, as I understand it. Even if that is true, that only means you need to expand your battery capacity and split into multiple banks.
- belltaco 8y ago
  Quick! Mine bitcoin for a day!
  - abledon 8y ago
    Superwog ep.5
toomuchtodo 8y ago
This is immediately viable anywhere you're operating an inefficient single cycle peaker plant. The longer your battery can discharge for (4 hour, 6 hour, 8 hour, 10 hour), the more likely it's able to replace a peaker duty cycle when called upon.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

The South Australian grid was particularly degenerate, making this more profitable there than elsewhere. It does make at least some sense in most places, though.

smoyer 8y ago

I remember there being a day earlier this year where the prices for wind-generated electricity in west Texas flipped. If you have to pay people to take your electricity (instead of spinning a generator down), why not store it for a later demand period?

olau 8y ago
It doesn't make sense to store something for later unless the storage costs are lower than the cost of reproducing what you need. A few periods per year of negative prices won't be enough to offset the investment in batteries.
i_cant_speel 8y ago
I was under the impression that large scale energy storage is one of the big problems with renewable energy that has yet to be truly solved.
- EmbarrassedFuel 8y ago
  Don’t forget the stochastic control problem that needs to be solved to stop the whole grid blowing up!
  - Brometheus 8y ago
    https://www.energymeteo.com/products/virtual_power_plant/the_virtual_power_plant.php https://www.energymeteo.com/products/virtual_power_plant/the...
makomk 8y ago
The amount of energy that is stored in batteries like this isn't that big in grid-scale terms. For example, on the night that Texas wind generation flipped electricity prices into the negative back in September 2015, their wind turbines alone were pumping out almost 11,500 MW of power. This has a capacity of 129 MWh. It's useful for grid stabilization because it can start up almost instantly and fill in the gap until another generation source which can run for more than the 90 minutes the battery lasts can start up, but less practical for longer-term storage. (The 90 minutes capacity at full output is pretty much an inherent property of lithium battery tech, as I understand it. There's a slight capacity vs power tradeoff which can be tweaked, but only within a relatively narrow band, and the maximum charging rate is if anything even less flexible than the discharge.) Also, it looks like there's already a small-scale battery bank providing frequency stabilization using Samsung lithium ion batteries in West Texas: https://www.energy-storage.news/news/minimal-downtime-younicos-swaps-out-lead-acid-for-lithium-at-texas-notrees https://www.energy-storage.news/news/minimal-downtime-younic...
- outworlder 8y ago
  > The 90 minutes capacity at full output is pretty much an inherent property of lithium battery tech, as I understand it. Even if that is true, that only means you need to expand your battery capacity and split into multiple banks.
belltaco 8y ago
Quick! Mine bitcoin for a day!
- abledon 8y ago
  Superwog ep.5

toomuchtodo 8y ago

This is immediately viable anywhere you're operating an inefficient single cycle peaker plant. The longer your battery can discharge for (4 hour, 6 hour, 8 hour, 10 hour), the more likely it's able to replace a peaker duty cycle when called upon.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]