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What is the recycleability of these things like? IIRC most batteries contain a bunch of rare earth metals and aren’t great for land filling. When these are worn

What is the recycleability of these things like? IIRC most batteries contain a bunch of rare earth metals and aren’t great for land filling. When these are worn out in 10-15 years how much environmental impact is there to replace / refurbish / recycle them?

api 8y ago
They don't consume their materials. It's an energy storage medium, not a fuel. From what I've read the recycling yield is quite high, though not quite 100% due to that nasty second law of thermodynamics. I imagine big utility-scale and car-size batteries are easier to recycle than the tiny cells found in laptops and phones. The latter tend to be less standard and due to their small size and exotic packaging are going to have more packing material and plastic vs. "good stuff" like lithium.
- thawkins 8y ago
  Open up the average car sized battery and its full of banks of small batteries like you get in laptops and cellphones.
ryanmercer 8y ago
https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl... Looks like 60-70% was being recycled in 2011. I imagine that's improved. Edit: here's more recent (and more detailed) coverage of Tesla's recycling https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the...
Klathmon 8y ago
IIRC at least the cobalt and nickel from lithium ion batteries are currently very recyclable, and in at least some cases it's actually cheaper to "mine" those metals from old batteries than it is to mine it from the ground. I think the bigger problem is getting people to actually recycle them, which shouldn't be a problem with these larger batteries in cars and buildings. Already the auto industry is really good at "recycling" parts by selling "cores" taken out of a car for replacement which get rebuilt and resold later, so the logistics and incentives are all there for it, and many are already buying hybrid batteries and doing the same process for them.
hwillis 8y ago
> IIRC most batteries contain a bunch of rare earth metals and aren’t great for land filling. That's incorrect. Batteries don't have any rare earth metals. You're thinking of cadmium telluride thin film solar panels, which have been replaced by silicon solar. They were a contender for cheaper solar panels, but it didn't work out in the end. They were also so terrible for the environment that they tainted the reputation of completely unrelated technologies. > When these are worn out in 10-15 years how much environmental impact is there to replace / refurbish / recycle them? It seems likely that the battery will last a lot longer than 15 years, but Tesla gives 15 years expected and 10 warrantied. Disposing of li-ion batteries involves shredding and burning them, which leaves behind a ceramic clinker (sold for concrete filler) and several metals (nickel, cobalt, copper, aluminum and steel in order of importance). Cobalt and nickel are the only hazardous materials and are fully collected since they're also the most valuable. Lithium is not cost-effective to recover; it's sold with the clinker. The incineration process only gives off CO2 and water. This comes from the electrolytes and plastics being burnt. It's obviously not great and the heat isn't captured for use (AFAIK) but there's no other pollution and the net CO2 savings are still great.
- kikki 8y ago
  This was incredibly informative, thank you very much.
- djhworld 8y ago
  Does this also apply to batteries in electric cars? I had an argument with my Dad the other week, he wasn't convinced by electric cars because of the battery disposal situation, complaining he finds it hard enough trying to dispose of a normal battery in a petrol car, so couldn't see the environmental benefit of electric cars I didn't have a good response because I didn't know either.
  - hwillis 8y ago
    Normal car batteries are filled with sulfuric acid and lead plates. Obviously, you can't just dump that. The li-ion batteries that power EVs don't have acid. The majority of the chemicals are actually totally innocuous- the carbon, plastics, electrolytes and about half of the metals are downright boring. Steel, aluminum, copper, polypropylene, carbon- lithium was in all the water you ever drank. I wouldn't drink the electrolyte, but it's basically just fancy grease/oil. The only two dangerous ingredients are nickel and cobalt- they aren't as bad as lead, but they aren't good either. They're also the easiest to extract and the most valuable. To recycle a battery, you dump it into a shredder and then into water. An electrochemical process is used to suck the metal off, a lot like how they plate metal onto things (but in reverse). The leftovers are strained out, ground, and eventually burnt.

api 8y ago

They don't consume their materials. It's an energy storage medium, not a fuel. From what I've read the recycling yield is quite high, though not quite 100% due to that nasty second law of thermodynamics. I imagine big utility-scale and car-size batteries are easier to recycle than the tiny cells found in laptops and phones. The latter tend to be less standard and due to their small size and exotic packaging are going to have more packing material and plastic vs. "good stuff" like lithium.

thawkins 8y ago
Open up the average car sized battery and its full of banks of small batteries like you get in laptops and cellphones.

ryanmercer 8y ago

https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl... Looks like 60-70% was being recycled in 2011. I imagine that's improved. Edit: here's more recent (and more detailed) coverage of Tesla's recycling https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the...

Klathmon 8y ago

IIRC at least the cobalt and nickel from lithium ion batteries are currently very recyclable, and in at least some cases it's actually cheaper to "mine" those metals from old batteries than it is to mine it from the ground. I think the bigger problem is getting people to actually recycle them, which shouldn't be a problem with these larger batteries in cars and buildings. Already the auto industry is really good at "recycling" parts by selling "cores" taken out of a car for replacement which get rebuilt and resold later, so the logistics and incentives are all there for it, and many are already buying hybrid batteries and doing the same process for them.

hwillis 8y ago

> IIRC most batteries contain a bunch of rare earth metals and aren’t great for land filling. That's incorrect. Batteries don't have any rare earth metals. You're thinking of cadmium telluride thin film solar panels, which have been replaced by silicon solar. They were a contender for cheaper solar panels, but it didn't work out in the end. They were also so terrible for the environment that they tainted the reputation of completely unrelated technologies. > When these are worn out in 10-15 years how much environmental impact is there to replace / refurbish / recycle them? It seems likely that the battery will last a lot longer than 15 years, but Tesla gives 15 years expected and 10 warrantied. Disposing of li-ion batteries involves shredding and burning them, which leaves behind a ceramic clinker (sold for concrete filler) and several metals (nickel, cobalt, copper, aluminum and steel in order of importance). Cobalt and nickel are the only hazardous materials and are fully collected since they're also the most valuable. Lithium is not cost-effective to recover; it's sold with the clinker. The incineration process only gives off CO2 and water. This comes from the electrolytes and plastics being burnt. It's obviously not great and the heat isn't captured for use (AFAIK) but there's no other pollution and the net CO2 savings are still great.

kikki 8y ago
This was incredibly informative, thank you very much.
djhworld 8y ago
Does this also apply to batteries in electric cars? I had an argument with my Dad the other week, he wasn't convinced by electric cars because of the battery disposal situation, complaining he finds it hard enough trying to dispose of a normal battery in a petrol car, so couldn't see the environmental benefit of electric cars I didn't have a good response because I didn't know either.
- hwillis 8y ago
  Normal car batteries are filled with sulfuric acid and lead plates. Obviously, you can't just dump that. The li-ion batteries that power EVs don't have acid. The majority of the chemicals are actually totally innocuous- the carbon, plastics, electrolytes and about half of the metals are downright boring. Steel, aluminum, copper, polypropylene, carbon- lithium was in all the water you ever drank. I wouldn't drink the electrolyte, but it's basically just fancy grease/oil. The only two dangerous ingredients are nickel and cobalt- they aren't as bad as lead, but they aren't good either. They're also the easiest to extract and the most valuable. To recycle a battery, you dump it into a shredder and then into water. An electrochemical process is used to suck the metal off, a lot like how they plate metal onto things (but in reverse). The leftovers are strained out, ground, and eventually burnt.