8 ms·

This is one thing I never understood. Im conservative and race rarely crosses my mind. Having grown up military and been in the military you perform your duties

by jriot 8y ago

This is one thing I never understood. Im conservative and race rarely crosses my mind. Having grown up military and been in the military you perform your duties and hang out with a range of people. Not once in my 11 years in the military did I see race brought up. After getting out and being in tech, race is brought up all the time that. Those who 'skew liberal to progressive' have an unnatural obsession with race. Why is that?

beaconstudios 8y ago
I don't know. I'm British and classical liberal/mildly conservative so I can't relate to it myself. The overt racism I was contrasting with was more the far right, most of my friends are politically similar to me and they don't care about race either.
untog 8y ago
Race, and racism, is everywhere (note: this does not mean "everyone is racist"). It's kind of absurd to say that it wouldn't be an issue if liberals stopped talking about it - I suspect if you did a survey of minorities they would very, very strongly disagree with that sentiment. You may not see it, others may not see it, but that's why people talk about unconscious bias a lot. You're just not attuned to it. The posts in this thread alone should indicate to you that there are common experiences you aren't aware of.
- antepodius 8y ago
  But on the other hand, if you try look for something, you'll find proof of it in abundance. You may not see the influence of the zionist powers ruling the world- but you're not attuned to it. Me, I see it clearly, everywhere. You just have to look hard enough.
- bmelton 8y ago
  I agree that racism exists. I agree that unconscious bias exists. I agree that work needs to be done to smooth race relations and unconscious bias. That said, I think it's worth considering whether constantly talking about race is doing the job of smoothing race relations, or alienating others to the cause.
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago
  > You're just not attuned to it. "Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) If you look hard enough for anything, you will find it ... whether it's there or not.
  - untog 8y ago
    Surely you can use that quote to dismiss absolutely everything? If you see it, it's confirmation bias. If you don't, it doesn't exist.
lukebitts 8y ago
People have an "unnatural obsession with race" because they want to fix race issues they believe exist in our society. It is not really difficult to understand.
- drharby 8y ago
  You make a gross assumption about his perspective aligning his views on what is wrong with the world with the views of liberal individuals. When you empathize with him and understand that he comes from a different background you can begin to understand why he expresses difficulty in understanding. I am brown, i never really hear race discussed much in my social circles in a comedic theme, not a racism theme. There's another data point. My poiny is that people are diverse, have different perspectives, and having an open mind facilitates dialogue
  - jamescostian 8y ago
    I agree with your point about empathy, but I disagree with the idea that a "gross assumption" was made. jriot was talking about an "unnatural obsession with race" and asking why it exists, and the person who replied to it succinctly explained why. It was a "question and answer" dialog. Regardless of jriot's perspective, the reply was still correct and probably informative (because it answers a question that was asked)
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
Hey, don't lump us older liberals in with them. Liberalism in the US used to be about workers' rights and making sure everybody got their fair share. The swing to identity politics is mystifying to us too.
api 8y ago
Because superficial political flag waving doesn't mean anything? I see a lot of the progressive flag waving in tech as "protesting too much." Here's an almost exclusively white male industry whose main pay check today is mass surveillance and manipulation. It's based in a city with a cost of living so high that only six-figure professionals can afford to live there in anything more than a bunk bed. Helps to cover it with a lot of faux-progressive window dressing. I grew up in the Midwest and lived in the South for a while. I know people from many different regions and walks of life. The most ardent, ideological, committed racists I've ever encountered are all in tech. Tech circles are the only place I've had multiple people try to evangelize me with what amounts to neo-Nazi ideology. Even putting those extreme cases aside I don't really see tech as very progressive. It's certainly not progressive in deed, and that's what matters. This is such a weird time politically. Politics is increasingly bullshit and the more irrelevant it becomes the more emotional and combative people become about it.
- steveeq1 8y ago
  > The most ardent, ideological, committed racists I've ever encountered are all in tech. Tech circles are the only place I've had multiple people try to evangelize me with what amounts to neo-Nazi ideology. Are you sure that's accurate? It's well known that tech circles have a left-leaning social ideology, particularly in the bay area.
  - api 8y ago
    Yes, it's accurate. The alt-right came out of tech circles: gamers, 4chan, etc. If you want some search terms start with Steve Bannon, IGE, weev, Vox Popoli, and Gamergate, and follow those rabbit holes until you hit acronyms like "HBD" and "NRx." The entire neo-fascist movement orbits tech. The majority of its intellectual leaders are tech people or people with significant involvement in the tech world. Hell a lot of it incubated right here on HN before the de-facto policy became to flag/shadowban that stuff. Go back to HN circa 2010-2011 and the site's full of it. I'm pretty convinced that if the admins hadn't banned that stuff HN would be a highbrow 4chan /pol by now, since everyone else would have bailed when it got increasingly hard-core. I've encountered casual racist attitudes elsewhere, but tech circles are the only places I've found significant numbers of true believers in the Bell Curve and people who think a single number (IQ) quantifies the worth of a human being. It's also, like I said, the only place I've had people try to evangelize me to hard-core fascist ideology. There's a world of difference between having casual negative attitudes toward other races because your family held them when you grew up and having an explicit ideological belief system that advocates racism, totalitarianism, and hyper-elitism. It's the difference between an un-examined bias and an examined, affirmed bias. I've found the former in places like Ohio and North Carolina. I've found the latter primarily in tech. It does surprise me to find these views in tech. It surprises me because tech is all about changing the way things are, so I wouldn't expect to find total commitment and capitulation to the naturalistic fallacy. But here it is.
jgroszko 8y ago
Liberals I think are a little bit more critical, knowing they exist in a society that is systemically racist in a lot of ways, are willing to look at their thoughts and behaviors in an effort to try and figure out ways that they might be unintentionally or subtly racist.
kaycebasques 8y ago
To someone who grew up in a place where “race was never brought up” I’m not surprised that you see any discussion of race as an “unnatural obsession”, putting aside the comedy that you think you’re fit to judge what’s natural. This is the first subject of race on HN that I have seem this week, maybe this month. It’s not like the front page has more than 1 thread on the topic every day.
- jriot 8y ago
  I grew up on island in Alaska where 40% were first generation immigrants from the Philippines. We all hung out, played sports together, traveled, graduated high school, joined the military, and now are raising our families. Maybe they received prejudice but at the same time those of who were military children weren't accepted as part of the community, seen as outsiders and treated as such. As kids we bonded and formed stronger relations with those around us and didn't let it affect us.
rfrey 8y ago
As a non-American outside view, my guess is that the socially-left view systemic racism as a big problem, so think about it, talk about it, and advocate policies to combat it. The socially-right believe America's meritocracy instincts are stronger than systemic racism, so don't talk or think about race as much. It seems like it has more to do with one's views of the relative position of cultural values ("America is pretty good at equality of opportunity" vs. "America has some important systemic challenges around race that compromise equality") rather than level of racism on either side. Unfortunately that difference seems to get misinterpreted both ways - with one side thinking (and saying) the others are racist because they don't support various race-targeted policies (or talk about systemic racism all the time), and the other side accusing the social-left of creating divides and problems by stoking race issues.
- jamescostian 8y ago
  I like your intro to the topic, and how it's nice to both sides. But you're drawing quite the straw man when you say > one side thinking (and saying) the others are racists because they don't support various race-targeted policies (or talk about systemic racism all the time) This completely ignores the actual racism that exists, and makes the social left out to be some group of insanely judgemental people that are so furious for reasons as small as "[people don't] talk about systemic racism all the time" I don't know anyone who's mad about people not talking about systemic racism all the time. But I do know a lot of people who are furious about racism, and they talk about racism much more than "omg can you believe that someone doesn't support Affirmative Action" Or "wow, this person isn't thinking about systemic racism 24/7? How racist of them!" Yes, people do discuss "race-targeted policies", and people can get judged for not agreeing with them. And although a certain degree of tribalism definitely exists (on both sides), if someone could provide me a good, clear argument against a "race-targeted policy" that also accounts for the issues that policy seeks to fix, then I'd happily agree with them (and not think they were racist). It's a shame so many discussions about those policies end up being arguments over the definition of racism (instead of, you know, how to lessen its extent and effects), and that is the problem with both sides.
  - rfrey 8y ago
dx87 8y ago
I had mostly the same experience as you, race was only really talked about during annual training sessions. I think the obsession with race in 'progressive' fields and communities comes from the current college atmosphere. My wife started teaching English 101 at a college this year, and the curriculum she got from the school is very focused on race. It's supposed to be an introductory English class, but all the assignments are about gentrification, racial identity, etc. The first day of class she was supposed to show them a video of a black girl doing free-form poetry where she talks about how white people are holding her down because of how she talks. The department head said they give them these "spicy" topics to write about so they'll be more interested in the class. It seems like professors and students look back on the individuals fighting for civil rights and decided that they want to fight for something, so they've become hyper focused on race.
- jriot 8y ago
  That is wild. Why is the girl doing free-form poetry being held down? I would have interpreted that as being the way she decided to approach the subject.
  - pathseeker 8y ago
    >Why is the girl doing free-form poetry being held down? The poetry is about her being held down by the way she talks. The poetry isn't the thing holding her down.
    - jriot 8y ago
      Ah, that makes more sense.
jamescostian 8y ago
"Skew liberal to progressive" here. I've heard friends of mine who are black talk about things like being followed around at a grocery store. I remember when Eric Garner was killed, a lot of my friends who are black didn't want to talk at all in school, and felt incredibly anxious. I also remember that shortly after those discussions where I learned of that anxiety, several of those people were in a class with me where the teacher brought up Eric Garner and put the 3 black people in the class on spotlight - she wasn't even trying to be malicious, she actually wanted to learn things, but I'm sure you can imagine how that made those 3 people feel. A lot of things are easy to just "not see" yet they happen quite often, and that is why the "unnatural obsession" exists for me at least. When you see the amount of racism that exists and can easily go unnoticed by you, you see the world in a different way. It's almost like finding out about the NSA and how little privacy we all have these days. I vividly remember the time I went to In-N-Out with a group, and took a seat at a table after ordering, but the group ended up moving to a different table. I asked the person who wanted to move the group "Why do you want us to sit over there?" She said nothing, but lifted her hand up and pointed a finger, and I looked over and there wasn't anything wrong. But there was a group of black people there. This was a time when racism was clear as day and right in front of me. But hearing many stories of racism from my friends who are black is a different feeling - instead of feeling like there's an isolated incident, I see how common it is, and how easy it is to just not see it. And that's scary. Scarier than the NSA and Facebook, because instead of losing privacy, people are actively harmed and you can easily not even see or hear about it
gadders 8y ago
>>This is one thing I never understood. Im conservative and race rarely crosses my mind. I agree. And it probably explains phenomena like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-black-people-new-study-contends/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liber...
uncletaco 8y ago
I was watching the Ken Burns documentary on the Vietnam War and I recall one of white vet (from the marines I think) remembered something to the tune of "it didn't matter what color your skin was, we were all the same out there" meanwhile some of the black vets had clear memories of racism in the ranks and how they dealt with it. One guy said he told people "say what you want to say about me, but say it from where I can't hear you" and another said he recalled a black soldier blowing up his white officer's house (or room, can't remember the exact terminology). As a black guy from a military family (though I wasn't in the military myself) my folks for the most part told me they tended to deal with racism quickly and quietly by pulling someone off to the side and either explaining what was wrong to them or fighting them (I have uncles that did one or the other). I think that is kind of how you have to deal with it as well as a lot of other problems in the military because of social pressures towards cohesion. I say this to say that maybe you didn't see it as much when you served because you never did anything to warrant a stern conversation or confrontation yourself and your fellow soldiers or sailors nipped it in the bud before it became a problem within ranks. But that's just my speculating because, again, I've never been in the military, but my uncles, cousins, and great grandfather were and talked about their experiences.
Consultant32452 8y ago
https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/white-liberals-present-themselves-as-less-competent-in-interactions-with-african-americans?amp https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/white-liberals-presen... White liberals are racist.

by jriot 8y ago

beaconstudios 8y ago

I don't know. I'm British and classical liberal/mildly conservative so I can't relate to it myself. The overt racism I was contrasting with was more the far right, most of my friends are politically similar to me and they don't care about race either.

untog 8y ago

Race, and racism, is everywhere (note: this does not mean "everyone is racist"). It's kind of absurd to say that it wouldn't be an issue if liberals stopped talking about it - I suspect if you did a survey of minorities they would very, very strongly disagree with that sentiment. You may not see it, others may not see it, but that's why people talk about unconscious bias a lot. You're just not attuned to it. The posts in this thread alone should indicate to you that there are common experiences you aren't aware of.

antepodius 8y ago
But on the other hand, if you try look for something, you'll find proof of it in abundance. You may not see the influence of the zionist powers ruling the world- but you're not attuned to it. Me, I see it clearly, everywhere. You just have to look hard enough.
bmelton 8y ago
I agree that racism exists. I agree that unconscious bias exists. I agree that work needs to be done to smooth race relations and unconscious bias. That said, I think it's worth considering whether constantly talking about race is doing the job of smoothing race relations, or alienating others to the cause.
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
> You're just not attuned to it. "Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) If you look hard enough for anything, you will find it ... whether it's there or not.
- untog 8y ago
  Surely you can use that quote to dismiss absolutely everything? If you see it, it's confirmation bias. If you don't, it doesn't exist.

lukebitts 8y ago

People have an "unnatural obsession with race" because they want to fix race issues they believe exist in our society. It is not really difficult to understand.

drharby 8y ago
You make a gross assumption about his perspective aligning his views on what is wrong with the world with the views of liberal individuals. When you empathize with him and understand that he comes from a different background you can begin to understand why he expresses difficulty in understanding. I am brown, i never really hear race discussed much in my social circles in a comedic theme, not a racism theme. There's another data point. My poiny is that people are diverse, have different perspectives, and having an open mind facilitates dialogue
- jamescostian 8y ago
  I agree with your point about empathy, but I disagree with the idea that a "gross assumption" was made. jriot was talking about an "unnatural obsession with race" and asking why it exists, and the person who replied to it succinctly explained why. It was a "question and answer" dialog. Regardless of jriot's perspective, the reply was still correct and probably informative (because it answers a question that was asked)

ThrowawayR2 8y ago

Hey, don't lump us older liberals in with them. Liberalism in the US used to be about workers' rights and making sure everybody got their fair share. The swing to identity politics is mystifying to us too.

api 8y ago

Because superficial political flag waving doesn't mean anything? I see a lot of the progressive flag waving in tech as "protesting too much." Here's an almost exclusively white male industry whose main pay check today is mass surveillance and manipulation. It's based in a city with a cost of living so high that only six-figure professionals can afford to live there in anything more than a bunk bed. Helps to cover it with a lot of faux-progressive window dressing. I grew up in the Midwest and lived in the South for a while. I know people from many different regions and walks of life. The most ardent, ideological, committed racists I've ever encountered are all in tech. Tech circles are the only place I've had multiple people try to evangelize me with what amounts to neo-Nazi ideology. Even putting those extreme cases aside I don't really see tech as very progressive. It's certainly not progressive in deed, and that's what matters. This is such a weird time politically. Politics is increasingly bullshit and the more irrelevant it becomes the more emotional and combative people become about it.

steveeq1 8y ago
> The most ardent, ideological, committed racists I've ever encountered are all in tech. Tech circles are the only place I've had multiple people try to evangelize me with what amounts to neo-Nazi ideology. Are you sure that's accurate? It's well known that tech circles have a left-leaning social ideology, particularly in the bay area.
- api 8y ago
  Yes, it's accurate. The alt-right came out of tech circles: gamers, 4chan, etc. If you want some search terms start with Steve Bannon, IGE, weev, Vox Popoli, and Gamergate, and follow those rabbit holes until you hit acronyms like "HBD" and "NRx." The entire neo-fascist movement orbits tech. The majority of its intellectual leaders are tech people or people with significant involvement in the tech world. Hell a lot of it incubated right here on HN before the de-facto policy became to flag/shadowban that stuff. Go back to HN circa 2010-2011 and the site's full of it. I'm pretty convinced that if the admins hadn't banned that stuff HN would be a highbrow 4chan /pol by now, since everyone else would have bailed when it got increasingly hard-core. I've encountered casual racist attitudes elsewhere, but tech circles are the only places I've found significant numbers of true believers in the Bell Curve and people who think a single number (IQ) quantifies the worth of a human being. It's also, like I said, the only place I've had people try to evangelize me to hard-core fascist ideology. There's a world of difference between having casual negative attitudes toward other races because your family held them when you grew up and having an explicit ideological belief system that advocates racism, totalitarianism, and hyper-elitism. It's the difference between an un-examined bias and an examined, affirmed bias. I've found the former in places like Ohio and North Carolina. I've found the latter primarily in tech. It does surprise me to find these views in tech. It surprises me because tech is all about changing the way things are, so I wouldn't expect to find total commitment and capitulation to the naturalistic fallacy. But here it is.

jgroszko 8y ago

Liberals I think are a little bit more critical, knowing they exist in a society that is systemically racist in a lot of ways, are willing to look at their thoughts and behaviors in an effort to try and figure out ways that they might be unintentionally or subtly racist.

kaycebasques 8y ago

To someone who grew up in a place where “race was never brought up” I’m not surprised that you see any discussion of race as an “unnatural obsession”, putting aside the comedy that you think you’re fit to judge what’s natural. This is the first subject of race on HN that I have seem this week, maybe this month. It’s not like the front page has more than 1 thread on the topic every day.

jriot 8y ago
I grew up on island in Alaska where 40% were first generation immigrants from the Philippines. We all hung out, played sports together, traveled, graduated high school, joined the military, and now are raising our families. Maybe they received prejudice but at the same time those of who were military children weren't accepted as part of the community, seen as outsiders and treated as such. As kids we bonded and formed stronger relations with those around us and didn't let it affect us.

rfrey 8y ago

As a non-American outside view, my guess is that the socially-left view systemic racism as a big problem, so think about it, talk about it, and advocate policies to combat it. The socially-right believe America's meritocracy instincts are stronger than systemic racism, so don't talk or think about race as much. It seems like it has more to do with one's views of the relative position of cultural values ("America is pretty good at equality of opportunity" vs. "America has some important systemic challenges around race that compromise equality") rather than level of racism on either side. Unfortunately that difference seems to get misinterpreted both ways - with one side thinking (and saying) the others are racist because they don't support various race-targeted policies (or talk about systemic racism all the time), and the other side accusing the social-left of creating divides and problems by stoking race issues.

jamescostian 8y ago
I like your intro to the topic, and how it's nice to both sides. But you're drawing quite the straw man when you say > one side thinking (and saying) the others are racists because they don't support various race-targeted policies (or talk about systemic racism all the time) This completely ignores the actual racism that exists, and makes the social left out to be some group of insanely judgemental people that are so furious for reasons as small as "[people don't] talk about systemic racism all the time" I don't know anyone who's mad about people not talking about systemic racism all the time. But I do know a lot of people who are furious about racism, and they talk about racism much more than "omg can you believe that someone doesn't support Affirmative Action" Or "wow, this person isn't thinking about systemic racism 24/7? How racist of them!" Yes, people do discuss "race-targeted policies", and people can get judged for not agreeing with them. And although a certain degree of tribalism definitely exists (on both sides), if someone could provide me a good, clear argument against a "race-targeted policy" that also accounts for the issues that policy seeks to fix, then I'd happily agree with them (and not think they were racist). It's a shame so many discussions about those policies end up being arguments over the definition of racism (instead of, you know, how to lessen its extent and effects), and that is the problem with both sides.
- rfrey 8y ago

dx87 8y ago

I had mostly the same experience as you, race was only really talked about during annual training sessions. I think the obsession with race in 'progressive' fields and communities comes from the current college atmosphere. My wife started teaching English 101 at a college this year, and the curriculum she got from the school is very focused on race. It's supposed to be an introductory English class, but all the assignments are about gentrification, racial identity, etc. The first day of class she was supposed to show them a video of a black girl doing free-form poetry where she talks about how white people are holding her down because of how she talks. The department head said they give them these "spicy" topics to write about so they'll be more interested in the class. It seems like professors and students look back on the individuals fighting for civil rights and decided that they want to fight for something, so they've become hyper focused on race.

jriot 8y ago
That is wild. Why is the girl doing free-form poetry being held down? I would have interpreted that as being the way she decided to approach the subject.
- pathseeker 8y ago
  >Why is the girl doing free-form poetry being held down? The poetry is about her being held down by the way she talks. The poetry isn't the thing holding her down.
  - jriot 8y ago
    Ah, that makes more sense.

jamescostian 8y ago

"Skew liberal to progressive" here. I've heard friends of mine who are black talk about things like being followed around at a grocery store. I remember when Eric Garner was killed, a lot of my friends who are black didn't want to talk at all in school, and felt incredibly anxious. I also remember that shortly after those discussions where I learned of that anxiety, several of those people were in a class with me where the teacher brought up Eric Garner and put the 3 black people in the class on spotlight - she wasn't even trying to be malicious, she actually wanted to learn things, but I'm sure you can imagine how that made those 3 people feel. A lot of things are easy to just "not see" yet they happen quite often, and that is why the "unnatural obsession" exists for me at least. When you see the amount of racism that exists and can easily go unnoticed by you, you see the world in a different way. It's almost like finding out about the NSA and how little privacy we all have these days. I vividly remember the time I went to In-N-Out with a group, and took a seat at a table after ordering, but the group ended up moving to a different table. I asked the person who wanted to move the group "Why do you want us to sit over there?" She said nothing, but lifted her hand up and pointed a finger, and I looked over and there wasn't anything wrong. But there was a group of black people there. This was a time when racism was clear as day and right in front of me. But hearing many stories of racism from my friends who are black is a different feeling - instead of feeling like there's an isolated incident, I see how common it is, and how easy it is to just not see it. And that's scary. Scarier than the NSA and Facebook, because instead of losing privacy, people are actively harmed and you can easily not even see or hear about it

gadders 8y ago

>>This is one thing I never understood. Im conservative and race rarely crosses my mind. I agree. And it probably explains phenomena like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liberals-dumb-themselves-down-when-they-speak-black-people-new-study-contends/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/11/30/white-liber...

uncletaco 8y ago

I was watching the Ken Burns documentary on the Vietnam War and I recall one of white vet (from the marines I think) remembered something to the tune of "it didn't matter what color your skin was, we were all the same out there" meanwhile some of the black vets had clear memories of racism in the ranks and how they dealt with it. One guy said he told people "say what you want to say about me, but say it from where I can't hear you" and another said he recalled a black soldier blowing up his white officer's house (or room, can't remember the exact terminology). As a black guy from a military family (though I wasn't in the military myself) my folks for the most part told me they tended to deal with racism quickly and quietly by pulling someone off to the side and either explaining what was wrong to them or fighting them (I have uncles that did one or the other). I think that is kind of how you have to deal with it as well as a lot of other problems in the military because of social pressures towards cohesion. I say this to say that maybe you didn't see it as much when you served because you never did anything to warrant a stern conversation or confrontation yourself and your fellow soldiers or sailors nipped it in the bud before it became a problem within ranks. But that's just my speculating because, again, I've never been in the military, but my uncles, cousins, and great grandfather were and talked about their experiences.

Consultant32452 8y ago

https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/white-liberals-present-themselves-as-less-competent-in-interactions-with-african-americans?amp https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/white-liberals-presen... White liberals are racist.