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How Facebook Is Fueling the French Populist Rage
- janzij 8y agoHow is this any different from the Arab Spring? Why should this be silenced while the Arab Spring had to amplified?
- ahje 8y agoThe cynical answer would be: Because it's inconvenient whereas the Arab spring was inconvenient to people we didn't like.
- creaghpatr 8y agoBecause this is ‘bad’ while Arab Spring was ‘good’.
- close04 8y agoBecause the protests against the democratically elected leadership during the Arab spring... Oh wait. You may hate something equally under any regime but there's a huge difference when that something is done in a democracy versus basically any other common form or government. In democracies issues can be (are?) solved at the election booth. Not so much in a dictatorship, a monarchy, or any "pseudo-democracy" (see China), etc.
- merpnderp 8y agoHow do you feel about the US riots held for equal protection and rights from the cops? Morally inferior and less deserving of access to social media than the Muslim Brotherhood led riots overthrowing the Egyptian government and installing a (short lived) theocracy?
- zabana 8y ago> In democracies issues can be (are?) solved at the election booth. Not so much in a dictatorship, a monarchy, or any "pseudo-democracy" (see China), etc. These people were in these very same election booths last year so clearly issues aren't being solved that way. <rant> Also, we need to step down our high moral horse and stop patronizing other nations by bringing up our holy "democracies". There has been an increasing and almost delusional portrayal of countries like Russia, China, Iran etc. That's not to say they don't have flaws but let's just take a good long look at the mirror before we hop on the <insert non western nation> bashing hype train. </rant> Edit: formatting
- fabricexpert 8y agoGo look in the mirror, you'll see much greater freedoms in western countries than any you've mentioned. The west doesn't actively persecute homosexuals, protects women's rights and supports a free press. The list goes on.
- zabana 8y agoYou're confusing democracy with freedom / progress my friend.
- village-idiot 8y agoThen find me an autocracy with those freedoms.
- zabana 8y agoThe United States of America.
- close04 8y agoI'm not patronizing any nation or bringing up the "holy" democracy. Even jumping the gun and introducing that "holy" in there makes betrays your message's very... zealoty nature. That is entirely your wording and understanding. If you want to make a point do it without distorting the message you're replying to into oblivion. This being said, to this day there is no better real world alternative to democracy. I take it you know very little of how Russia and China work internally. It's going to sound cynical but if you did you'd appreciate the "lesser evil" of western democracy. Think at least of the fact that you're now free to express these opinions, as you do. You know the upside of democracy? With enough people behind you you can easily install dictatorship. The other way around needs slightly more sacrifices. Pretty sure those people fighting in the Arab spring against their not elected leaders weren't doing it just to jump on the bashing hype train ;).
- sanxiyn 8y agoProtesting is very democratic. South Korea showed that to the world. Sure, South Koreans could wait one more year and solve the problem at the election booth, but protesting solved the problem faster.
- Veen 8y agoProtesting is one thing. Vandalism, looting, and firebombing are not legal protests.
- sanxiyn 8y agoThat whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.
- Veen 8y agoMacron isn't Hitler or Pol Pot or George III. He wants to put the price of diesel up to reduce environmental damage. He wants to reduce taxes on the rich to spur the economy. You can disagree with those aims, but he's not destroying the French system of government. For that, look to Venezuela.
- janzij 8y agoHe's a neoliberal who's screwing the working people, and now the working people are protesting. While I agree with the premise that they should've chosen someone else who cared about them like Le Pen, I don't see how this protest is illegitimate. (Not that I'm defending the property damage, of course.)
- close04 8y agoProtesting yes. Breaking the law... maybe also democratic. This doesn't change the fact that there is no comparing this to Arab spring. The same act can have very different meaning in different contexts. In this case it doesn't feel like those protesters have exhausted their options before jumping to violence. As such this is a condemnable act.
- Symmetry 8y agoIt's not. This is a phenomenon that'll probably keep going as long as we have pervasive social networks. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22451908-the-revolt-of-the-public-and-the-crisis-of-authority https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22451908-the-revolt-of-t...
- Veen 8y agoBecause there is no moral equivalence between the despotisms of the middle east and the elected government of a secular democratic republic. Overturning tyrany is good. Attempting to overturn democracies in favor of mob rule is bad.
- janzij 8y agoDemocracy is not the perfect system that some people purport it to be. You get someone elected, someone who is far from perfect but he's the only likely candidate to win, so what can you do. And then that person has 4 years to screw you over. That's not just.
- seren 8y agoWhile not being perfect, that is still far better than regime in Zimbabwe, Venezuela or North Korea, where the head of state keeps the power as long as he is alive, or is replaced by force by another thug.
- asianthrowaway 8y agoI'm pretty sure Venezuela was (and still is) a democracy. I think people tend to conflate liberalism (in the classical sense), and democracy. You can have undemocratic liberal states (the Austro-Hungarian empire was a good example).
- Veen 8y agoUndemocratic liberal states only stay liberal for as long as suits wealthy elites. Venezuala is technically a democracy, but, as I said in another comment, you also need strong institutions for a functioning democracy. Venzuala has a weak court system and Maduro didn't allow opposition parties to take part in the 2017 presidential elections, so it's not exactly a model democracy.
- Veen 8y agoWho said democracy is a perfect system? I certainly didn't. Democracy is flawed because people are flawed. But western representative democracy -- limited democracy supported by strong institutions -- is the best way to avoid autocracy on one side and mob rule on the other. There are no perfect solutions.
- ocschwar 8y agoThe French protesters are not risking a stay in the Palmyra prison. (Warning: even text descriptions of what went on there are NSFL)
- shower-curtain 8y agoIt's called "democracy" if it aligns with your biases, and "populism" if it doesn't.
- paganel 8y ago> Sometimes, the social network carries obvious fake news, such as images of bleeding protesters taken two years ago in Spain or spreads the rumors of tanks ready to move against the Yellow Vests (15,000 interactions). This video of senseless police brutality looks in fact to be pretty real and from the latest events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK8b4plAlJQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK8b4plAlJQ&feature=youtu.be . Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's lots of fake news related to the recent events but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater by saying that everything that gets shared on social networks is fake news.
- ceejayoz 8y ago"Fake news" is sometimes a real photo/video falsely attached to the wrong event. Here's why the Spanish protest pics were "fake news": https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/06/inenglish/1507278297_702753.html https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/06/inenglish/1507278297_70... The same thing is happening in the French protests: https://observers.france24.com/en/20181129-debunked-videos-yellow-vests-france-protests https://observers.france24.com/en/20181129-debunked-videos-y...
- paganel 8y agoI know that, I've been part of the Romanian protests for almost two years now and I've seen my good share of fake news attached to similar events. It was just that the article was somehow hinting that all news shared on Facebook and other social media about the protests were fake news (which is obviously false), or at least that was my feeling when reading the article.
- tomjakubowski 8y agoNo, those pictures of brutal Spanish police action to block people from casting ballots were fake. There are plenty of real ones. As a casual but interested observer, I personally don't remember seeing any of those fake photos shared. https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/10/photos-from-catalonias-independence-vote/541761/ https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/10/photos-from-catalo...
- buboard 8y agoFacebook is proving to be a bestseller with the media. Not a day goes by without 3-4 of those stories becoming "news for hackers"
- stochastic_monk 8y agoIt seems that this content source is only concerned about news about prominent tech companies, which matches their Palo Alto location. Facebook’s been going through the grinder because they’ve recently had a lot of evidence against them come out; of course technically interested people care about a leader in research and industry. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=mondaynote.com https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=mondaynote.com
- buboard 8y agodoesn't explain why there are at least 2 similar stories at any time in HN frontpage I mean, from an entrepreneurial standpoint,maybe "antifacebook as a service" is a valid idea?
- justtopost 8y agoI would subscribe to that service.
- stochastic_monk 8y ago250 pages of documents being released contradicting prior statements could reasonably be expected to cause an increase of coverage.
- 0x445442 8y agoHow Facebook is Fueling the Watts Riots... Oh wait.
- vixen99 8y agoAnd it could merely be that folk on the edge of French society — truck drivers, provincial plumbers, builders, deliverymen, teachers, parents — are saying `Enough is enough. Stop making our lives harder.’
- justtopost 8y agoThats not the favored narritave worldwide. We are being sold that the french are antarchist ingrates on american media. I still don't knkw how to get an unbiased view.
- hackerman12345 8y agoFacebook apparently :)
- stdbrouw 8y agoHow exactly are truck drivers, provincial plumbers, builders, deliverymen, teachers and parents parents on the edge of French society? How are their lives being made harder?
- justtopost 8y agoThose classes seem disproportionately affected by higher transportation costs in already low-margin but nessarry jobs and careers. While the effect may be exaggerated, it is not imaginary by any stretch.
- vtesucks 8y agoPopulist has a derogatory connotation and insulting peoples will seems improper
- yakcyll 8y ago> Populist has a derogatory connotation For a very good reason. > insulting peoples will seems improper It does seem improper, but drawing the connection between calling out people drawn to populism and insulting them is one of the least discrete attempts at muddying the waters I've seen recently.
- vibrato 8y agoWhat is that reason? Why should people not advocate for their own interest?
- douglaswlance 8y agoSocialism is populism on the Left (i.e. distributing wealth at the point of a gun). Populism on the Right is instead via a more democratic method of building a strong market that lifts all ships.
- krapp 8y ago>Populism on the Right is instead via a more democratic method of building a strong market that lifts all ships. ...also at the point of a gun. You're being disingenuous in evoking the monopoly of force but only applying it to "the left", in order to imply that, "socialist" governance is more coercive (and thus less legitimate) than any other. If you live in a state that collects taxes or regulates the market, or any system other than anarchy, then you live under a regime that distributes wealth at the point of a gun. And with anarchy, you're just trading the monopoly on violence for a free market of violence.
- douglaswlance 8y agoSocialist Populism seeks wealth redistribution for individuals by using force against people (in addition to organizations) via taxation. Market Populism seeks wealth redistribution for organizations by using force against organizations exclusively to break up local maxima (monopolies, duopolies, etc.). Both use force, but one operates on the individual level, the other at the organizational level.
- jdhn 8y agoDamned if they do, damned if they don't. Personally, I feel that a lot of this hate towards Facebook is done by media types who are jealous that Facebook has stolen their role as a place to find news, no matter if it's fake or real.
- hardwaresofton 8y agoYeah, as much as I dislike Facebook, at this point I'm kind of concerned about how much bad press is coming out about one company. Most other tech companies (especially the ones still in the "hustling" phase) are just as bad as FB if not worse. It's starting to feel like a coordinated smear campaign, even if all of it is accurate.
- baq 8y agoyeah, google and amazon and dare I say it apple have access to a similar amount of data about their users. Apple is the one I trust with privacy the most, but how are you going to prove that they aren't selling my profile...?
- saagarjha 8y agoThe only way to know this is by not providing companies with your data in the first place. Unfortunately auditing this is kind of difficult to do today with most operating systems being closed-source and hard to inspect, but it’s still possible to do general checks on what they are sending out.
- hardwaresofton 8y agoI wonder if it'll ever be possible to reverse the paradigm -- when Facebook needs some of my data, they ask me (or some proxy Iv'e set up) for my data and use it with a lease. All the EULA legalese that companies use to enforce their will could be turned in the opposite direction and we'd found out it's real worth -- I can dictate how FB uses the data they pull from my server just like they try, to the extent that anyone can tell someone else what to do with data instead of having near zero power as people who live in non-GDPR regions do now. I mean I don't think this kind of scheme would actually work but I can still dream.
- 0x445442 8y agoHow the Legacy Media is fueling discontent toward competing sources of information. How government officials are panicked over losing control of narratives. Please trust us Plebes. we'll give you the information you need.
- degenerate 8y agoNot sure why you are downvoted at the bottom, because you are right. As long as media continuously and relentlessly post articles about how terrible facebook is (as a "news source"), the legacy organizations will stay relevant. They are fighting for survival and it's more obvious now than ever.
- purplethinking 8y agoI don't like Facebook more than anyone else, but at this point aren't we just blaming them for enabling communication? By all means, criticize Facebook for privacy issues, but not for stuff like this, unless you actually want censorship on the largest scale ever in history.
- dao- 8y agoIt's not just plain communication. Facebook controls what you see and their algorithms encourage rage because it gets users engaged.
- easytiger 8y agoIt's monetisation of the little rush of chemicals your body injects when you feel outraged. Apparently its quite addictive!
- dboreham 8y agoSee also: Fox News.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoWell if you're gonna go that route then you might as well toss in CNN, NBC, ABC, etc, etc. CSPAN and arguably PBS are probably the only TV "news" networks that don't use every trick in the book to try and keep you watching so they can make more money by showing you more ads.
- beasteurope 8y agoSee also: Any international conglomerate that own a piece of the mainstream media apparatus.
- Wellshit 8y agoAgree, show users stuff they don't care about, that's how you win the market
- lordfoom 8y agoWhat's with all this defense of facebook in the comments on hacker news lately?
- merpnderp 8y agoTwo wrongs don’t make a right? It’s possible for both the media and Facebook to have faults.
- randiantech 8y agoWorld is not black and white. You can always criticize Facebook for their brutal user information sharing practises, or lack of curation to try to avoid fake news. But at the same time its possible to recognize that not everything on FB is fake news. Or in this particular case, that letting people share and communicate is not reprehensible.
- tonyedgecombe 8y agoThey employ a lot of programmers, I imagine at least some of them are here.
- ceejayoz 8y agoNot to mention PR firms. https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-hired-firm-house-fake-news-shop-combat-pr-crisis-n936591 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-hired-firm-h...
- ahje 8y agoThe issue described in the article is not an issue with Facebook. Filter bubbles are an issue that's much larger than Facebook. Blaming it all on Facebook would mean we ignore the fact that they also exist elsewhere.
- lucozade 8y agoI'd argue it's more a defence of accuracy than Facebook per se. Just because you don't like a person or company or country or whatever doesn't mean that it's reasonable to accuse them of all the ills of the world. I'd even argue that it can be detrimental. If you get enough "Facebook killed my puppy" stories, folk will start ignoring stories about Facebook and miss the stuff that's genuinely a problem.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- fabricexpert 8y ago> Zuckerberg controls its board and his number two, Sheryl Sandberg, can’t decently be fired, protected by the “Lean In” flak vest. That's a poor, cheap shot at women's rights. How sad that an article that wraps up with this can sit at #1 on HN.
- zabana 8y agoGenuine question: Is it just me or the whole 'fake-news' concept seems like an excuse for ~old~ traditional (failing?) media to continue to act as gatekeepers of information ? I've seen an increasing number of alternative / independent journalists and websites being given the label of "fake-news site" recently and I'm a bit worried to see that trend continue.
- dao- 8y agoI'm sure it's not just you but you could still be wrong. :> What you consider alternative / independent journalists could be charlatans by journalistic standards. It's hard to say in the abstract.
- asianthrowaway 8y agoYeah, establishment journalists consistently provide accurate information, like the time they discovered that huge stockpile of WMDs in Irak.
- dao- 8y agoWhen journalists fail to adhere to journalistic standards they should be criticized for that. What's your point?
- zabana 8y agoI guess the fact that we have to separate independent journalists from the ones working for privately owned outlets is problematic in itself.
- dao- 8y agoRight, what I'm saying is that we should uphold objective standards rather than just saying independent journalists are generally more/less trustworthy than established ones.
- itry2develop 8y agoNever any articles on how social media has fueled the sjw rage...
- sylvinus 8y ago> the worse civil unrest ever seen in France It's major, but quite far from the worst we've ever had.
- dopylitty 8y agoI'm leery of any movement that the media refers to as "populist" as it seems many of these movements in the past years have been fueled by concerted efforts by despotic governments to destabilize democracies (Ukraine, US) or spread internal discord (Myanmar). Facebook and Twitter play a key role in these influence operations by not adequately detecting and removing accounts controlled by these despotic governments until after the fact. Traditional media outlets are not blameless as they frequently treat the results of these intelligence operations as though they were authentic grassroots movements.
- EGreg 8y agoOr the other way, by governments of democratic countries to destabilize nondemocratic countries, which is arguably easier.
- saalweachter 8y agoFrankly "populism" has been a code word for nationalism/racism/xenophobia my entire life.
- jklinger410 8y agoCan someone explain the nuances of these protests? Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Aren't carbon taxes progressive and environmentally responsible?
- detaro 8y agoThey're also a burden on poorer people, especially from rural regions (where cars are necessary), proposed by a government that's generally been seen as helping the rich and burdening the poor. It's less a protest against that specific tax in isolation, and more against the general trend, that was triggered by the proposed tax as the last straw.
- saagarjha 8y agoNot an expert by any means, but to my understanding the carbon tax is only part of a series of taxes that the French people are protesting about, which they feel help the rich and hurt the poor disproportionately.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Yes, the French routing over taxes is not historically uncommon, and the French aren't unified ideologically, and particularly aren't uniformly left-wing. And, as I understand, it's not as simple as just carbon taxes, either.
- jklinger410 8y agoI understand the french-are-liberal trope, but, as an American, I view countries like Canada, France, and Germany as way farther left than the US. Economically, and culturally. We see much less representation of their conservatives here. Pardon me for being slightly ignorant on this, and thank you for the reminder.
- seren 8y agoSomething interesting I caught on the radio this morning and that I find really relevant, is that while Yellow Vests have people from both ends of the political spectrum, the far-right is not anti welfare state at all. LePen's Rassemblement National is anti-immigration, and anti Europe or anti globalization, so in this regard could be close to some of Trump's positions but is not at all against welfare state. Most people protesting want less gas taxes, but not at the cost of lesser healthcare or education. I believe this is a position that does not really exist in the American political spectrum. So it was explained by the speaker that culturally French people are more on the side of "Social Justice" rather than "Freedom", but that does necessarily means there are more "liberal" than "conservative". It can look similar but if you are looking really close, you cannot really apply American labels. I believe this is one of the reason it looks confusing and it is hard to explain from an outsider perspective.
- pjc50 8y ago"France has riots" is hardly news, since '68 onwards. This time it's not the banlieus or the students, but what in the UK we'd call "white van man"; the self-employed working class. The spread of fake news at viral speed is somewhat new, but people taking to the streets is a much more normal part of French politics.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- zorked 8y agoBrazil had such an outburst in 2013, also seemingly spontaneous and enabled by social networks. Fast forward a few years and the president-elect is a far-right idiot who ran on a platform of conspiracy theories and attacks on the press, supported by a huge disinformation campaign on anonymous, encrypted and widely popular messengers, completely bypassing all forms of campaign accountability. Ignore the symptoms at your peril.
- aklemm 8y agoSo really we need to grapple with the unexpected (or unfortunate)outcome that bad ideas easily win out when communication is greater than ever.
- rchaud 8y agoI see; now that mass unrest has reached the doors of the rich world, social media is a serious problem and requires immediate regulation. I don't recall any such hand-wringing during the 2011 "Arab Spring", itself a darkly comical title given what later unfolded in Libya, Egypt and Syria. Back then, the narrative among western governments and press was that Twitter was a beacon of hope, allowing free democratic expression in dictatorial regimes. Not a word about the potential for bad actors to leverage the power of such networks to create political instability so they could take the throne.
- wazoox 8y agoPoor analysis by a journalist who works for the most corporate French newspaper (le Monde), which is largely subsidized by the government (21 millions euros a year). Nothing to see, really. 72% of the French population still supports the movement, albeit all the efforts from the government and media, the insisting on violence... and the explanation still is "people are stupid and manipulable?". No, the explanation is simple, the People is right, and its Will is just; and the smug Parisian journalists are just displaying their class contempt for the unwashed masses, and this is frankly disgusting. "Macron, démission".