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I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so t
by jamescostian 8y ago
I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so that new keys have to be inserted into some compartment inside of cars, where they are authenticated by those cars. You can imagine a fob with a USB that has a different authentication code than the wireless one it sends out, and unless the USB is plugged into the car, you can only start the car up but you can't drive it.
In addition, you can make it so that the car doesn't unlock due to proximity with the fob, but rather, it only unlocks if you push the unlock button on the fob.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- lozaning 8y agoThats essentially how my car works right now, it's push to start, but you've got to have the fob slotted into a thing in the dash for the push to start button to actually work.
- r00fus 8y agoWhat vehicle do you have?
- lozaning 8y agoA 9 year old BMW without the comfort access package.
- Kirth 8y agoMy BMW did not come with such a fob slot but still required you to dig the key out to press the (un)lock buttons. Weird transition.
- pedrocr 8y agoBut that's the perfect fob! I keep it in my pocket and it has enough of a distinct shape I can press the buttons from the outside of the pocket. So I lock/unlock and open the trunk with no effort and yet am imune to this attack because a button press is always required. People I've driven were mistified how I was operating things because it's become so second nature you can hardly tell.
- cambalache 8y agoMine too! But only because the battery on my fob died and I am too poor now to replace it. Frankly I kinda like it that way, it makes me more conscious or the damn fob (I used to just drop it anywhere in the car).I have a Tucson 2011 FWIW
- homero 8y agoThe battery is like $1 on eBay
- Scoundreller 8y agoIt’s a 2032. Just snag one from an ewaste computer motherboard. Dollar stores usually have 3 for $1.
- Scoundreller 8y agoBMW late 2000s were like this. Maybe still are.
- jjeaff 8y agoI have a 2007 BMW. It does have a slot to insert the fob. But it is not required to start or run the car. The slot acts as a charger and holder for the fob. But proximity is all that is actually needed.
- lozaning 8y agoSounds like you've got the comfort access package on your car. Without that tech package (sadly not offered on my make and model year) you've got to actually put the fob into the slot to make the push to start work.
- Cd00d 8y agoI had a 2011 3-series that required the fob to go into the slot to power or start the car.
- skywhopper 8y agoMy wife's 2014 Mini works this way as well.
- r00fus 8y agoDoes this not sound exactly like what I had back in the 90s where my physical key would need to be inserted to start the vehicle and to unlock I'd press the keyfob to activate the unlocking. I imagine an smartphone with touch sensor + car remote app would be even safer than what we have now.
- jamescostian 8y agoThe difference is that you can start up your engine (read: have AC on so that your car is the right temperature when you get to it) and also unlock the doors for others from far away If that functionality was encapsulated on a smart phone, that would be fine too.
- jjeaff 8y agoMy 2007 vehicle does this just fine. And any signal from the fob require a press of the button. These key fobs use rolling codes as well. So you would need to capture a button press while the remote is too far away from the car to receive it. Then replay it to the vehicle. Of course you still need the key to unlock the steering wheel and of you touch the break without inserting the key, the ignition cuts off. I'm not sure why we are going backwards in the security department here. Seems like a lot to give up just to not have to stick the key in or press the unlock button.
- gsich 8y agoOr jam the signal with pseudo-random-noise. Afterwards you can remove the noise again and have the clear signal.
- wool_gather 8y ago> I'm not sure why we are going backwards in the security department here. Consumer products nearly always go features that have whizz-bang "it's so convenient" demo value, until a problem like this becomes prevalent enough to end up on everyone's nightly news.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- stronglikedan 8y agoBut then my mom would have to dump out her purse every time she wanted to unlock her car.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoHow does she unlock her front door?
- cglace 8y agoSmart door lock?
- stronglikedan 8y agoShe doesn't have her keys on her fob. Heck, last time I took her to get her oil changed, the key fob still had the little plastic removable key tag from the dealer she bought it from.
- rootusrootus 8y agoI imagine a lot of people don't use a key to get in their house, nor do they use the front door. Hit the button on the garage door remote, drive in, walk into house.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- H1Supreme 8y agoI got a notice in the mail from our county's assessor because they left three door tags at my house. I almost never open the front door. I go in and out of the garage, and let my cat out the back.
- Scoundreller 8y agoMy late grandpa would wear his on his belt. Classy.
- prawn 8y ago
- nkrisc 8y agoYes, I was making a joke, but I was also semi-serious. I personally wouldn't mind that the car unlocks based on the fob's proximity, but requires insertion of the key for ignition. I currently drive a 2009 car with the usual key fob and my biggest issue with it is not having to insert it to start the car, but unlocking the doors while my hands are full. Once I'm seated in the driver's seat I'm not carrying anything and starting the car is no problem.
- jamescostian 8y ago> unlocks based on the fob's proximity Unfortunately, that would be vulnerable to theives unlocking your car and taking everything in it. For me, the biggest convenience of fobs is the ability to start the car and have AC on so that the car isn't burning/freezing when I get to it
- jjeaff 8y agoAnd this is probably a more common scenario than stealing the car.
- nkrisc 8y agoIf they're stealing your car like in this article, then that's already happening anyway. At least if it was unlock only and not ignition as well then you'd at least still have your car.
- ams6110 8y agoI never like to have the car running when I'm not in it. If it's low on oil, or overheating, etc there's nobody watching the gauges.
- godelski 8y agoDo you have an old car or are you a pilot?
- Swizec 8y agoMy problem with modern cars is that there’s no good place to put the keys. They’re uncomfy in my pocket when sitting down and I’m too warm for a jacket with pockets. The old ignition hole was the perfect solution. You had a dedicated spot for your keys, you always knew where they are, were unlikely to forget them in the car, and it also happened to start your engine. Perfect
- burtonator 8y agoI'm not sure why we can't have some sort of challenge response protocol to prevent MITM...
- croshan 8y agoThat's exactly what I'm wondering. Maybe it has something to do with the additional battery consumption that doing this incurs, probably something like double/triple consumption, with the hashing.
- jwcacces 8y agoThe key fob does use challenge-response, the thief just uses a glorified range-extender to get the car started with the key normally out of range. The car stays on once started. There's no MITM involved.
- ken 8y agoHuh? The diagram in the article shows two men ("Thief 1", "Thief 2") between the fob and the car, with arrows showing communications going from fob to thief to car. According to the first sentence of the Wikipedia MITM article, that's the very definition.
- __jochen__ 8y agothe relay is of the radio signal, there is no inspection or tampering of the relayed messages. basically, the extender tricks the car into thinking the fob is closer than it is.
- Piskvorrr 8y agoIn other words, there's identification, there's authentication, but authorization is replaced by "if in range, then authorized." Two out of three is still game over.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- viraptor 8y agoToyota Prius does that. (Or at least the 2007 version did) You have the key fob (with emergency key inside). You have to insert the whole fob into a port on the dashboard for it to start.
- dpatrick86 8y agoNot required for the optional smart key system.