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I’m a person who acknowledges everything is deterministic and free will is a facade. The two types of people I’ve encountered who desire the notion of free will

I’m a person who acknowledges everything is deterministic and free will is a facade. The two types of people I’ve encountered who desire the notion of free will: 1) Person with ego who needs to have a belief in free will. 2) Persons who has ego, gets annoyed by free will being a facade and refuses to think about it because “it doesn’t matter” to this person. I’m perplexed if the problem is singular between the two types of persons and if it’s either: ego, desire, greed, selfishness, or these people really need a belief similar to persons of religious ideology to continue functioning as who they are subconsciously. To me it’s fascinating to observe because I genuinely propose the world would be better when the majority lives by reason in reality; when it comes to law, health, the environment, finances, and social problems. The psychological impact would be the most exciting thing for me personally to witness as I cannot imagine any negatives of a majority understanding determinism compared to the madnesses today in society; where the majority “who blame everyone” or compare themselves to others unfortunate as the outcome wasn’t determined before birth.

starbeast 8y ago
Ever heard that knowledge is the opposite of thought?
wallace_f 8y ago
>I'm convinced I'm right, and I've transformed any opposing arguments into two ad hominen attacks relying on stereotypes I don't have anything to say about the debate of free will vs determinism, but I particularly dislike your style of reasoning. Most people do this within topics of politics and economics, which conveniently allows them to allow their confirmation bias without putting themselves in the other person's shoes to understand where they disagree. Instead they'd rather go with the prejudiced "oh they must be that kind of (stereotyped) person."
- intralizee 8y ago
  My style of reasoning is how it came to be by all the events I've lived in life. A lot of unfavorable events, unfortunate circumstances and with its happy moments. I could try to do mental gymnastics to produce something more desirable for "you" but I prefer to simplify my observation into what I wrote. I don't really see any substance other than from your ego in your reply.
atq2119 8y ago
The real question with free will is: free of what? Free of physics? Obviously not, but that conclusion is pretty vacuous because almost by definition anything that can affect our actions is a potential object of study for physics once you break it down sufficiently. For actual applications of the notion of free will in moral reasoning, this line of argument is also pretty irrelevant. What matters more is whether our will is free from influence by other moral actors and society at large. And obviously it's not totally free of such influence, but we can enjoy a pretty significant degree of freedom there.
- intralizee 8y ago
  There is no freedom with understanding determinism. I'm just a vessel forcibly navigated from start to finish in life. All the external forces make me who I am. I'm not free of the order assigned to me and the linear outcomes is scrutinized when it comes to others who had a less favorable order or different producing variables with undesired results.
navjack27 8y ago
I like the way you think
naasking 8y ago
> The two types of people I’ve encountered who desire the notion of free will: 1) Person with ego who needs to have a belief in free will. 2) Persons who has ego, gets annoyed by free will being a facade and refuses to think about it because “it doesn’t matter” to this person. This is a complete straw man. Let me describe the contrary claim: in my experience, the type of person who desire giving up free will either a) want to give up punishment and so confuse justice with moral responsibility, and/or b) are confused about what determinism and choice really mean. You appear to fall in the former category at the very least. I suggest you read up a little more on the meaning of free will and Compatibilism specifically. There's a reason why the majority of professional philosophers are Compatibilists.
- dubya23 8y ago
  Every time free will comes up on HN these bizarre statements arise. Compatabilism is crap and even Dan Dennett perhaps the most famous compatabilist knows it. He often says "You have free will, it's just not what you think it is." This totally obfuscates the problem. Laypeople when thinking of free will imagine Libertarian Free Will which virtually no philosophers think actually exists but this is exactly the kind of free will that matters to people. All these arguments that folks like you make are just semantic and in my opinion meaningless. Its a simple fact that the type of free will that most people subjectively feel they have simply doesn't exist, everything else is word play. People are using two different definitions and only 1 really matters.
- intralizee 8y ago
  You don’t have a good grasp on philosophy to suggest the meaning of free will and complatiblism. Yes the justic system is a disgrace to humanity and I understand determinism. Prove otherwise please from what I wrote and I’ll be thankful. Instead it looks like someone with a hurt ego writing nonsense to me.
  - naasking 8y ago
    There's nothing to prove. Your comment had no substance, and advanced no arguments. It was a set of bald assertions without justification, and so can be dismissed without argument.
ganzuul 8y ago
3) Person who desires it for the sake of personal accountability
- intralizee 8y ago
  I would think that is still either 1) or 2). It all comes down to the ego with accountability.
  - ganzuul 8y ago
    How do you figure? Seems to me ego would want no accountability at all.
    - intralizee 8y ago
      Ego creates accountability on both sides of the equation (ex. victim & assailant) when it comes to something undesired in society. Ego is constructed by the person viewing what encompasses reality and comparing the self to form self-esteem or self-importance. As a person who understands determinism, I feel my ego has diminished when it comes to individuals. I realize me comparing others who are "unfortunate or fortunate" to myself is nonsense and accountability for individuality is diminished to null. My accountability for society as a whole is instead greatly increased and where I view the complete system of what makes an individual who they are being at fault for any undesired outcome. Basically if someone were to do a horrible act it is by fate, how they were raised in the family they were born, with genetics and all the events that happened in the specific linear order of no real control because free will does not exist. I would see everything at fault "the will of the universe" and where the best humanity can do is study what made the outcome; with working on fixing the problem and rehabilitation for the person.
      - ganzuul 8y ago
        Seems that you are speaking of Id rather than ego. That or your neurology is alien to me. Not everybody is ruled by circumstance. With hard work and dedication you can begin to eliminate the factors which force your hand. For some individuals the task probably is insurmountable. For those of us lucky or unlucky enough to be able to reach a state of free will, accountability is a dubious reward.

starbeast 8y ago

Ever heard that knowledge is the opposite of thought?

wallace_f 8y ago

>I'm convinced I'm right, and I've transformed any opposing arguments into two ad hominen attacks relying on stereotypes I don't have anything to say about the debate of free will vs determinism, but I particularly dislike your style of reasoning. Most people do this within topics of politics and economics, which conveniently allows them to allow their confirmation bias without putting themselves in the other person's shoes to understand where they disagree. Instead they'd rather go with the prejudiced "oh they must be that kind of (stereotyped) person."

intralizee 8y ago
My style of reasoning is how it came to be by all the events I've lived in life. A lot of unfavorable events, unfortunate circumstances and with its happy moments. I could try to do mental gymnastics to produce something more desirable for "you" but I prefer to simplify my observation into what I wrote. I don't really see any substance other than from your ego in your reply.

atq2119 8y ago

The real question with free will is: free of what? Free of physics? Obviously not, but that conclusion is pretty vacuous because almost by definition anything that can affect our actions is a potential object of study for physics once you break it down sufficiently. For actual applications of the notion of free will in moral reasoning, this line of argument is also pretty irrelevant. What matters more is whether our will is free from influence by other moral actors and society at large. And obviously it's not totally free of such influence, but we can enjoy a pretty significant degree of freedom there.

intralizee 8y ago
There is no freedom with understanding determinism. I'm just a vessel forcibly navigated from start to finish in life. All the external forces make me who I am. I'm not free of the order assigned to me and the linear outcomes is scrutinized when it comes to others who had a less favorable order or different producing variables with undesired results.

navjack27 8y ago

I like the way you think

naasking 8y ago

> The two types of people I’ve encountered who desire the notion of free will: 1) Person with ego who needs to have a belief in free will. 2) Persons who has ego, gets annoyed by free will being a facade and refuses to think about it because “it doesn’t matter” to this person. This is a complete straw man. Let me describe the contrary claim: in my experience, the type of person who desire giving up free will either a) want to give up punishment and so confuse justice with moral responsibility, and/or b) are confused about what determinism and choice really mean. You appear to fall in the former category at the very least. I suggest you read up a little more on the meaning of free will and Compatibilism specifically. There's a reason why the majority of professional philosophers are Compatibilists.

dubya23 8y ago
Every time free will comes up on HN these bizarre statements arise. Compatabilism is crap and even Dan Dennett perhaps the most famous compatabilist knows it. He often says "You have free will, it's just not what you think it is." This totally obfuscates the problem. Laypeople when thinking of free will imagine Libertarian Free Will which virtually no philosophers think actually exists but this is exactly the kind of free will that matters to people. All these arguments that folks like you make are just semantic and in my opinion meaningless. Its a simple fact that the type of free will that most people subjectively feel they have simply doesn't exist, everything else is word play. People are using two different definitions and only 1 really matters.
intralizee 8y ago
You don’t have a good grasp on philosophy to suggest the meaning of free will and complatiblism. Yes the justic system is a disgrace to humanity and I understand determinism. Prove otherwise please from what I wrote and I’ll be thankful. Instead it looks like someone with a hurt ego writing nonsense to me.
- naasking 8y ago
  There's nothing to prove. Your comment had no substance, and advanced no arguments. It was a set of bald assertions without justification, and so can be dismissed without argument.

ganzuul 8y ago

3) Person who desires it for the sake of personal accountability

intralizee 8y ago
I would think that is still either 1) or 2). It all comes down to the ego with accountability.
- ganzuul 8y ago
  How do you figure? Seems to me ego would want no accountability at all.
  - intralizee 8y ago
    Ego creates accountability on both sides of the equation (ex. victim & assailant) when it comes to something undesired in society. Ego is constructed by the person viewing what encompasses reality and comparing the self to form self-esteem or self-importance. As a person who understands determinism, I feel my ego has diminished when it comes to individuals. I realize me comparing others who are "unfortunate or fortunate" to myself is nonsense and accountability for individuality is diminished to null. My accountability for society as a whole is instead greatly increased and where I view the complete system of what makes an individual who they are being at fault for any undesired outcome. Basically if someone were to do a horrible act it is by fate, how they were raised in the family they were born, with genetics and all the events that happened in the specific linear order of no real control because free will does not exist. I would see everything at fault "the will of the universe" and where the best humanity can do is study what made the outcome; with working on fixing the problem and rehabilitation for the person.
    - ganzuul 8y ago
      Seems that you are speaking of Id rather than ego. That or your neurology is alien to me. Not everybody is ruled by circumstance. With hard work and dedication you can begin to eliminate the factors which force your hand. For some individuals the task probably is insurmountable. For those of us lucky or unlucky enough to be able to reach a state of free will, accountability is a dubious reward.