6 ms·

If someone leaves a couch on the curb and you take it is that stealing? A lot of these bird drops don’t seem regulated at all. I’m not even sure they are reall

by pfisch 8y ago

If someone leaves a couch on the curb and you take it is that stealing? A lot of these bird drops don’t seem regulated at all. I’m not even sure they are really bird’s property anymore. Incidentally when someone just dumps a couch on the curb it isn’t full of hard to dispose hazardous materials, unlike these scooters.

koboll 8y ago
I wish the downvoters would explain why you're wrong instead. Under what legal theory can Bird file charges against someone who takes what they've left unsecured sitting on a sidewalk?
- pfisch 8y ago
  I’m sort of surprised none of these pissed off city councils have gone after them for illegally dumping hazardous materials. I guess most people here infer that I hate these scooters, but I actually think they are mostly a public good. Just like uber is. Doesn’t mean it is legal though.
- shaki-dora 8y ago
  Downvoter here! You're arguing against about 2000 years of legal history. Theft is defined as the taking of another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it. Note how nothing in that definition requires the property to be secured. You also don't get to hit people over the head with a hammer only because they have turned away from you. In general, law abhors your principle of "might is right". In fact, law and morality are entirely unnecessary in the cases where an otherwise unlawful action is successfully prevented by protections. I guess all the moral gymnastics to justify copyright infringement are now having spillover effects. It's one way to get back to a coherent moral code, I give you that. But I hope you can afford bodyguards to accompany at all times of day, and no enemy of yours ever becomes rich enough to pay more muscle than you can.
  - koboll 8y ago
    It's not really a 'principle'; I was genuinely curious, not trying to make a point. I like electric scooters, actually. But it does seem strange that suddenly there's an expectation that things can just be left on the sidewalk while enjoying the full protection of the law. I don't think that if I left my bike sitting unlocked in front of someone else's apartment building indefinitely, I'd have much of a case against the kid that walked away with it. But companies can do it and because they are companies, it's a different story.
DanBC 8y ago
> If someone leaves a couch on the curb and you take it is that stealing? In England: Probably, yes. You have appropriated something that belongs to someone else; you intend to permanently deprive the ower of it. The only other thing needed for theft is for the appropriation to be dishonest. You know the couch doesn't belong to you, and there isn't a sign saying "Free couch", so there's a strong argument that this is dishonest unless there's a sign on it saying "free couch". Here's an article about stealing rubbish: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13037808 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13037808 Here's some commentary about a story of people stealing out of date food from a bin, being charged for it, and then the CPS dropping the charges: http://ukcriminallawblog.com/stealing-from-a-bin-and-the-vagrancy-act-1824/ http://ukcriminallawblog.com/stealing-from-a-bin-and-the-vag...
- code_duck 8y ago
  What is the legal force of a ‘free’ sign, anyway? I found a sign that said ‘FREE - WORKS’ and was putting on things for amusement until I realized that might be a very bad idea. When taking something that says ‘free’ how does one verify the sign was written by the owner?
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Ask? You could protect yourself from inadvertently depriving the owner by leaving a note - "thanks for free stuff, me@example.com".
  - tapland 8y ago
    How do you verify that goods on craigslist wasn't stolen before being sold? Reasonable assumptions that will be tried if you are caught carrying home the sofa.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    Doesn't have to be. You have to believe it was and thus not be being dishonest
  - shaki-dora 8y ago
    There is two sides here, civil and criminal law. As for the first, It’s the same as someone uploading a stolen photo with a CC0 license, i. e. none. If the true owner finds you, they are highly likely to be entitled to get their property back. As for criminal charges, a reasonable assumption of permission should usually work as an excuse. This will depend on the specifics, such as the item’s value, local customs, etc. I actually found a rather valuable chair (the rietvelt) on the street, and did leave my phone number because I could not quite believe my luck. The previous owner called and told me to enjoy it.
scatters 8y ago
If you leave a car by the side of the road and someone takes it is that stealing? Vehicles - of whatever size - have a distinct treatment from other forms of property; you can station them beside the highway without being deemed to have abandoned them.
- shaki-dora 8y ago
  You are vaguely remembering the Castle Doctrine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine That's not necessary here. Taking of property requires explicit or clearly implied consent. The latter includes depositing something in a trash can. But just leaving it on the streets clearly does not.

by pfisch 8y ago

koboll 8y ago

I wish the downvoters would explain why you're wrong instead. Under what legal theory can Bird file charges against someone who takes what they've left unsecured sitting on a sidewalk?

pfisch 8y ago
I’m sort of surprised none of these pissed off city councils have gone after them for illegally dumping hazardous materials. I guess most people here infer that I hate these scooters, but I actually think they are mostly a public good. Just like uber is. Doesn’t mean it is legal though.
shaki-dora 8y ago
Downvoter here! You're arguing against about 2000 years of legal history. Theft is defined as the taking of another person's property or services without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it. Note how nothing in that definition requires the property to be secured. You also don't get to hit people over the head with a hammer only because they have turned away from you. In general, law abhors your principle of "might is right". In fact, law and morality are entirely unnecessary in the cases where an otherwise unlawful action is successfully prevented by protections. I guess all the moral gymnastics to justify copyright infringement are now having spillover effects. It's one way to get back to a coherent moral code, I give you that. But I hope you can afford bodyguards to accompany at all times of day, and no enemy of yours ever becomes rich enough to pay more muscle than you can.
- koboll 8y ago
  It's not really a 'principle'; I was genuinely curious, not trying to make a point. I like electric scooters, actually. But it does seem strange that suddenly there's an expectation that things can just be left on the sidewalk while enjoying the full protection of the law. I don't think that if I left my bike sitting unlocked in front of someone else's apartment building indefinitely, I'd have much of a case against the kid that walked away with it. But companies can do it and because they are companies, it's a different story.

DanBC 8y ago

> If someone leaves a couch on the curb and you take it is that stealing? In England: Probably, yes. You have appropriated something that belongs to someone else; you intend to permanently deprive the ower of it. The only other thing needed for theft is for the appropriation to be dishonest. You know the couch doesn't belong to you, and there isn't a sign saying "Free couch", so there's a strong argument that this is dishonest unless there's a sign on it saying "free couch". Here's an article about stealing rubbish: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13037808 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13037808 Here's some commentary about a story of people stealing out of date food from a bin, being charged for it, and then the CPS dropping the charges: http://ukcriminallawblog.com/stealing-from-a-bin-and-the-vagrancy-act-1824/ http://ukcriminallawblog.com/stealing-from-a-bin-and-the-vag...

code_duck 8y ago
What is the legal force of a ‘free’ sign, anyway? I found a sign that said ‘FREE - WORKS’ and was putting on things for amusement until I realized that might be a very bad idea. When taking something that says ‘free’ how does one verify the sign was written by the owner?
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Ask? You could protect yourself from inadvertently depriving the owner by leaving a note - "thanks for free stuff, me@example.com".
- tapland 8y ago
  How do you verify that goods on craigslist wasn't stolen before being sold? Reasonable assumptions that will be tried if you are caught carrying home the sofa.
- isostatic 8y ago
  Doesn't have to be. You have to believe it was and thus not be being dishonest
- shaki-dora 8y ago
  There is two sides here, civil and criminal law. As for the first, It’s the same as someone uploading a stolen photo with a CC0 license, i. e. none. If the true owner finds you, they are highly likely to be entitled to get their property back. As for criminal charges, a reasonable assumption of permission should usually work as an excuse. This will depend on the specifics, such as the item’s value, local customs, etc. I actually found a rather valuable chair (the rietvelt) on the street, and did leave my phone number because I could not quite believe my luck. The previous owner called and told me to enjoy it.

scatters 8y ago

If you leave a car by the side of the road and someone takes it is that stealing? Vehicles - of whatever size - have a distinct treatment from other forms of property; you can station them beside the highway without being deemed to have abandoned them.

shaki-dora 8y ago
You are vaguely remembering the Castle Doctrine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine That's not necessary here. Taking of property requires explicit or clearly implied consent. The latter includes depositing something in a trash can. But just leaving it on the streets clearly does not.